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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson: Chapters 28-30

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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson: Chapters 28-30

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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson: Chapters 28-30

Book 3 in the Stormlight Archive. Humanity faces a new Desolation with the return of the Voidbringers, a foe with numbers as great as their thirst for vengeance.

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Published on October 31, 2017

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Oathbringer by Brandon Sanderson

Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!

Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.

Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.

Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.

Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books, other works that take place in Sanderson’s cosmere (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, etc.), and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.

 

 

Chapter 28
Another Option

Finally, I will confess my humanity. I have been named a monster, and do not deny those claims. I am the monster that I fear we all can become.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

The decision has been made,’” Teshav read, “ ‘to seal off this Oathgate until we can destroy it. We realize this is not the path you wished for us to take, Dalinar Kholin. Know that the Prime of Azir considers you fondly, and looks forward to the mutual benefit of trade agreements and new treaties between our nations.

“ ‘A magical portal into the very center of our city, however, presents too severe a danger. We will entertain no further pleas to open it, and suggest that you accept our sovereign will. Good day, Dalinar Kholin. May Yaezir bless and guide you.’ ”

Dalinar punched his fist into his palm as he stood in the small stone chamber. Teshav and her ward occupied the writing podium and seat beside it, while Navani had been pacing opposite Dalinar. King Taravangian sat in a chair by the wall, hunched forward with hands clasped, listening with a concerned expression.

That was it then. Azir was out.

Navani touched his arm. “I’m sorry.”

“There’s still Thaylenah,” Dalinar said. “Teshav, see if Queen Fen will speak with me today.”

“Yes, Brightlord.”

He had Jah Keved and Kharbranth from Taravangian, and New Natanan was responding positively. With Thaylenah, Dalinar could at least forge a unified Vorin coalition of all the Eastern states. That model might eventually persuade the nations of the west to join with them.

If anyone remained by then.

Dalinar started pacing again as Teshav contacted Thaylenah. He preferred little rooms like this one; the large chambers were a reminder of how enormous this place was. In a small room like this, you could pretend that you were in a cozy bunker somewhere.

Of course, even in a small chamber there were reminders that Urithiru wasn’t normal. The strata on the walls, like the folds of a fan. Or the holes that commonly showed up at the tops of rooms, right where the walls met the ceiling. The one in this room couldn’t help but remind him of Shallan’s report. Was something in there, watching them? Could a spren really be murdering people in the tower?

It was nearly enough to make him pull out of the place. But where would they go? Abandon the Oathgates? For now, he’d quadrupled patrols and sent Navani’s researchers searching for a possible explanation. At least until he could come up with a solution.

As Teshav wrote to Queen Fen, Dalinar stepped up to the wall, suddenly bothered by that hole. It was right by the ceiling, and too high for him to reach, even if he stood on a chair. Instead he breathed in Stormlight. The bridgemen had described using stones to climb walls, so Dalinar picked up a wooden chair and painted its back with shining light, using the palm of his left hand.

When he pressed the back of the chair against the wall, it stuck. Dalinar grunted, tentatively climbing up onto the seat of the chair, which hung in the air at about table height.

“Dalinar?” Navani asked.

“Might as well make use of the time,” he said, carefully balancing on the chair. He jumped, grabbing the edge of the hole by the ceiling, and pulled himself up to look down it.

It was three feet wide, and about one foot tall. It seemed endless, and he could feel a faint breeze coming out of it. Was that… scraping he heard? A moment later, a mink slunk into the main tunnel from a shadowed crossroad, carrying a dead rat in its mouth. The tubular little animal twitched its snout toward him, then carried its prize away.

“Air is circulating through those,” Navani said as he hopped down off the chair. “The method baffles us. Perhaps some fabrial we have yet to discover?”

Dalinar looked back up at the hole. Miles upon miles of even smaller tunnels threaded through the walls and ceilings of an already daunting system. And hiding in them somewhere, the thing that Shallan had drawn…

“She’s replied, Brightlord!” Teshav said.

“Excellent,” Dalinar said. “Your Majesty, our time is growing short. I’d like—”

“She’s still writing,” Teshav said. “Pardon, Brightlord. She says… um…”

“Just read it, Teshav,” Dalinar said. “I’m used to Fen by now.”

“ ‘Damnation, man. Are you ever going to leave me alone? I haven’t slept a full night in weeks. The Everstorm has hit us twice now; we’re barely keeping this city from falling apart.’ ”

“I understand, Your Majesty,” Dalinar said. “And am eager to send you the aid I promised. Please, let us make a pact. You’ve dodged my requests long enough.”

Nearby, the chair finally dropped from the wall and clattered to the floor. He prepared himself for another round of verbal sparring, of half promises and veiled meanings. Fen had been growing increasingly formal during their exchanges.

The spanreed wrote, then halted almost immediately. Teshav looked at him, grave.

“ ‘No,’ ” she read.

Your Majesty,” Dalinar said. “This is not a time to forge on alone! Please. I beg you. Listen to me!”

“ ‘You have to know by now,’” came the reply, “ ‘that this coalition is never going to happen. Kholin… I’m baffled, honestly. Your garnet-lit tongue and pleasant words make it seem like you really assume this will work.

“ ‘Surely you see. A queen would have to be either stupid or desperate to let an Alethi army into the very center of her city. I’ve been the former at times, and I might be approaching the latter, but… storms, Kholin. No. I’m not going to be the one who finally lets Thaylenah fall to you people. And on the off chance that you’re sincere, then I’m sorry.’ ”

It had an air of finality to it. Dalinar walked over to Teshav, looking at the inscrutable squiggles on the page that somehow made up the women’s script. “Can you think of anything?” he asked Navani as she sighed and settled down into a chair next to Teshav.

“No. Fen is stubborn, Dalinar.”

Dalinar glanced at Taravangian. Even he had assumed Dalinar’s purpose was conquest. And who wouldn’t, considering his history?

Maybe it would be different if I could speak to them in person, he thought. But without the Oathgates, that was virtually impossible.

“Thank her for her time,” Dalinar said. “And tell her my offer remains on the table.”

Teshav started writing, and Navani looked to him, noting what the scribe hadn’t—the tension in his voice.

“I’m fine,” he lied. “I just need time to think.”

He strode from the room before she could object, and his guards outside fell into step behind him. He wanted some fresh air; an open sky always seemed so inviting. His feet didn’t take him in that direction, however. He instead found himself roaming through the hallways.

What now?

Same as always, people ignored him unless he had a sword in his hand.

Storms, it was like they wanted him to come in swinging.

He stalked the halls for a good hour, getting nowhere. Eventually, Lyn the messenger found him. Panting, she said that Bridge Four needed him, but hadn’t explained why.

Dalinar followed her, Shallan’s sketch a heavy weight in his mind. Had they found another murder victim? Indeed, Lyn led him to the section where Sadeas had been killed.

His sense of foreboding increased. Lyn led him to a balcony, where the bridgemen Leyten and Peet met him. “Who was it?” he asked as he met them.

“Who…” Leyten frowned. “Oh! It’s not that, sir. It’s something else.

This way.”

Leyten led him down some steps onto the wide field outside the first level of the tower, where three more bridgemen waited near some rows of stone planters, probably for growing tubers.

“We noticed this by accident,” Leyten said as they walked among the planters. The hefty bridgeman had a jovial way about him, and talked to Dalinar—a highprince—as easily as he’d talk to friends at a tavern. “We’ve been running patrols on your orders, watching for anything strange. And… well, Peet noticed something strange.” He pointed up at the wall. “See that line?”

Dalinar squinted, picking out a gouge cut into the rock wall. What could score stone like that? It almost looked like…

He looked down at the planter boxes nearest them. And there, hidden between two of them, was a hilt protruding from the stone floor.

A Shardblade.

It was easy to miss, as the blade had sunk all the way down into the rock. Dalinar knelt beside it, then took a handkerchief from his pocket and used it to grab the hilt.

Even though he didn’t touch the Blade directly, he heard a very distant whine, like a scream in the back of someone’s throat. He steeled himself, then yanked the Blade out and set it across the empty planter.

The silvery Blade curved at the end almost like a fishhook. The weapon was even wider than most Shardblades, and near the hilt it rippled in wave-like patterns. He knew this sword, knew it intimately. He’d carried it for decades, since winning it at the Rift all those years ago.

Oathbringer.

He glanced upward. “The killer must have dropped it out that window. It clipped the stone on its way down, then landed here.”

“That’s what we figured, Brightlord,” Peet said.

Dalinar looked down at the sword. His sword.

No. Not mine at all.

He seized the sword, bracing himself for the screams. The cries of a dead spren. They weren’t the shrill, painful shrieks he’d heard when touching other Blades, but more of a whimper. The sound of a man backed into a corner, thoroughly beaten and facing something terrible, but too tired to keep screaming.

Dalinar steeled himself and carried the Blade—a familiar weight—with the flat side against his shoulder. He walked toward a different entrance back into the tower city, followed by his guards, the scout, and the five bridgemen.

You promised to carry no dead Blade, the Stormfather thundered in his head.

“Calm yourself,” Dalinar whispered. “I’m not going to bond it.”

The Stormfather rumbled, low and dangerous.

“This one doesn’t scream as loudly as others. Why?”

It remembers your oath, the Stormfather sent. It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others.

Dalinar passed a group of Hatham’s farmers who had been trying, without success, to get some lavis polyps started. He drew more than a few looks; even at a tower populated by soldiers, highprinces, and Radiants, someone carrying a Shardblade in the open was an unusual sight.

“Could it be rescued?” Dalinar whispered as they entered the tower and climbed a stairway. “Could we save the spren who made this Blade?”

I know of no way, the Stormfather said. It is dead, as is the man who broke his oath to kill it.

Back to the Lost Radiants and the Recreance—that fateful day when the knights had broken their oaths, abandoned their Shards, and walked away. Dalinar had witnessed that in a vision, though he still had no idea what had caused it.

Why? What had made them do something so drastic?

He eventually arrived at the Sadeas section of the tower, and though guards in forest green and white controlled access, they couldn’t deny a highprince—particularly not Dalinar. Runners dashed before him to carry word. Dalinar followed them, using their path to judge if he was going in the right direction. He was; she was apparently in her rooms. He stopped at the nice wooden door, and gave Ialai the courtesy of knocking.

One of the runners he had chased here opened the door, still panting. Brightness Sadeas sat in a throne set in the center of the room. Amaram stood at her shoulder.

“Dalinar,” Ialai said, nodding her head to him like a queen greeting a subject.

Dalinar heaved the Shardblade off his shoulder and set it carefully on the floor. Not as dramatic as spearing it through the stones, but now that he could hear the weapon’s screams, he felt like treating it with reverence.

He turned to go.

“Brightlord?” Ialai said, standing up. “What is this in exchange for?”

“No exchange,” Dalinar said, turning back. “That is rightfully yours. My guards found it today; the killer threw it out a window.”

She narrowed her eyes at him.

“I didn’t kill him, Ialai,” Dalinar said wearily.

“I realize that. You don’t have the bite left in you to do something like that.”

He ignored the gibe, looking to Amaram. The tall, distinguished man met his gaze.

“I will see you in judgment someday, Amaram,” Dalinar said. “Once this is done.”

“As I said you could.”

“I wish that I could trust your word.”

“I stand by what I was forced to do, Brightlord,” Amaram said, stepping forward. “The arrival of the Voidbringers only proves I was in the right. We need practiced Shardbearers. The stories of darkeyes gaining Blades are charming, but do you really think we have time for nursery tales now, instead of practical reality?”

“You murdered defenseless men,” Dalinar said through gritted teeth. “Men who had saved your life.”

Amaram stooped, lifting Oathbringer. “And what of the hundreds, even thousands, your wars killed?”

They locked gazes.

“I respect you greatly, Brightlord,” Amaram said. “Your life has been one of grand accomplishment, and you have spent it seeking the good of Alethkar. But you—and take this with the respect I intend—are a hypocrite.

“You stand where you do because of a brutal determination to do what had to be done. It is because of that trail of corpses that you have the luxury to uphold some lofty, nebulous code. Well, it might make you feel better about your past, but morality is not a thing you can simply doff to put on the helm of battle, then put back on when you’re done with the slaughter.”

He nodded his head in esteem, as if he hadn’t just rammed a sword through Dalinar’s gut.

Dalinar spun and left Amaram holding Oathbringer. Dalinar’s stride down the corridors was so quick that his entourage had to scramble to keep up.

He finally found his rooms. “Leave me,” he said to his guards and the bridgemen.

They hesitated, storm them. He turned, ready to lash out, but calmed himself. “I don’t intend to stray in the tower alone. I will obey my own laws. Go.”

They reluctantly retreated, leaving his door unguarded. He passed into his outer common room, where he’d ordered most of the furniture to be placed. Navani’s heating fabrial glowed in a corner, near a small rug and several chairs. They finally had enough Stormlight to power it.

Drawn by the warmth, Dalinar walked up to the fabrial. He was surprised to find Taravangian sitting in one of the chairs, staring into the depths of the shining ruby that radiated heat into the room. Well, Dalinar had invited the king to use this common room when he wished.

Dalinar wanted nothing but to be alone, and he toyed with leaving. He wasn’t sure that Taravangian had noticed him. But that warmth was so welcoming. There were few fires in the tower, and even with the walls to block wind, you always felt chilled.

He settled into the other chair and let out a deep sigh. Taravangian didn’t address him, bless the man. Together they sat by that not-fire, staring into the depths of the gem.

Storms, how he had failed today. There would be no coalition. He couldn’t even keep the Alethi highprinces in line.

“Not quite like sitting by a hearth, is it?” Taravangian finally said, his voice soft.

“No,” Dalinar agreed. “I miss the popping of the logs, the dancing of flamespren.”

“It does have its own charm though. Subtle. You can see the Stormlight moving inside.”

“Our own little storm,” Dalinar said. “Captured, contained, and channeled.”

Taravangian smiled, eyes lit by the ruby’s Stormlight. “Dalinar Kholin… do you mind me asking you something? How do you know what is right?”

“A lofty question, Your Majesty.”

“Please, just Taravangian.”

Dalinar nodded.

“You have denied the Almighty,” Taravangian said.

“I—”

“No, no. I am not decrying you as a heretic. I do not care, Dalinar. I’ve questioned the existence of deity myself.”

“I feel there must be a God,” Dalinar said softly. “My mind and soul rebel at the alternative.”

“Is it not our duty, as kings, to ask questions that make the minds and souls of other men cringe?”

“Perhaps,” Dalinar said. He studied Taravangian. The king seemed so contemplative.

Yes, there still is some of the old Taravangian in there, Dalinar thought. We have misjudged him. He might be slow, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t think.

“I have felt warmth,” Dalinar said, “coming from a place beyond. A light I can almost see. If there is a God, it was not the Almighty, the one who called himself Honor. He was a creature. Powerful, but still merely a creature.”

“Then how do you know what is right? What guides you?”

Dalinar leaned forward. He thought he could see something larger within the ruby’s light. Something that moved like a fish in a bowl.

Warmth continued to bathe him. Light.

“ ‘On my sixtieth day,’” Dalinar whispered, “ ‘I passed a town whose name shall remain unspoken. Though still in lands that named me king, I was far enough from my home to go unrecognized. Not even those men who handled my face daily—in the form of my seal imprinted upon their letters of authority—would have known this humble traveler as their king.’ ”

Taravangian looked to him, confused.

“It’s a quote from a book,” Dalinar said. “A king long ago took a journey. His destination was this very city. Urithiru.”

“Ah…” Taravangian said. “The Way of Kings, is it? Adrotagia has mentioned that book.”

“Yes,” Dalinar said. “ ‘In this town, I found men bedeviled. There had been a murder. A hogman, tasked in protecting the landlord’s beasts, had been assaulted. He lived long enough, only, to whisper that three of the other hogmen had gathered together and done the crime.

“ ‘I arrived as questions were being raised, and men interrogated. You see, there were four other hogmen in the landlord’s employ. Three of them had been responsible for the assault, and likely would have escaped suspicion had they finished their grim job. Each of the four loudly proclaimed that he was the one who had not been part of the cabal. No amount of interrogation determined the truth.’ ”

Dalinar fell silent.

“What happened?” Taravangian asked.

“He doesn’t say at first,” Dalinar replied. “Throughout his book, he raises the question again and again. Three of those men were violent threats, guilty of premeditated murder. One was innocent. What do you do?”

“Hang all four,” Taravangian whispered.

Dalinar—surprised to hear such bloodthirst from the other man— turned. Taravangian looked sorrowful, not bloodthirsty at all.

“The landlord’s job,” Taravangian said, “is to prevent further murders. I doubt that what the book records actually happened. It is too neat, too simple a parable. Our lives are far messier. But assuming the story did occur as claimed, and there was absolutely no way of determining who was guilty… you have to hang all four. Don’t you?”

“What of the innocent man?”

“One innocent dead, but three murderers stopped. Is it not the best good that can be done, and the best way to protect your people?” Taravangian rubbed his forehead. “Stormfather. I sound like a madman, don’t I? But is it not a particular madness to be charged with such decisions? It’s difficult to address such questions without revealing our own hypocrisy.”

Hypocrite, Amaram accused Dalinar in his mind.

He and Gavilar hadn’t used pretty justifications when they’d gone to war. They’d done as men did: they’d conquered. Only later had Gavilar started to seek validation for their actions.

“Why not let them all go?” Dalinar said. “If you can’t prove who is guilty—if you can’t be sure—I think you should let them go.”

“Yes… one innocent in four is too many for you. That makes sense too.”

“No, any innocent is too many.”

“You say that,” Taravangian said. “Many people do, but our laws will claim innocent men—for all judges are flawed, as is our knowledge. Eventually, you will execute someone who does not deserve it. This is the burden society must carry in exchange for order.”

“I hate that,” Dalinar said softly.

“Yes… I do too. But it’s not a matter of morality, is it? It’s a matter of thresholds. How many guilty may be punished before you’d accept one innocent casualty? A thousand? Ten thousand? A hundred? When you consider, all calculations are meaningless except one. Has more good been done than evil? If so, then the law has done its job. And so… I must hang all four men.” He paused. “And I would weep, every night, for having done it.”

Damnation. Again, Dalinar reassessed his impression of Taravangian. The king was soft-spoken, but not slow. He was simply a man who liked to consider a great long time before committing.

“Nohadon eventually wrote,” Dalinar said, “that the landlord took a modest approach. He imprisoned all four. Though the punishment should have been death, he mixed together the guilt and innocence, and determined that the average guilt of the four should deserve only prison.”

“He was unwilling to commit,” Taravangian said. “He wasn’t seeking justice, but to assuage his own conscience.”

“What he did was, nevertheless, another option.”

“Does your king ever say what he would have done?” Taravangian asked. “The one who wrote the book?”

“He said the only course was to let the Almighty guide, and let each instance be judged differently, depending on circumstances.”

“So he too was unwilling to commit,” Taravangian said. “I would have expected more.”

“His book was about his journey,” Dalinar said. “And his questions. I think this was one he never fully answered for himself. I wish he had.”

They sat by the not-fire for a time before Taravangian eventually stood and rested his hand on Dalinar’s shoulder. “I understand,” he said softly, then left.

He was a good man, the Stormfather said.

“Nohadon?” Dalinar said.

Yes.

Feeling stiff, Dalinar rose from his seat and made his way through his rooms. He didn’t stop at the bedroom, though the hour was growing late, and instead made his way onto his balcony. To look out over the clouds.

Taravangian is wrong, the Stormfather said. You are not a hypocrite, Son of Honor.

“I am,” Dalinar said softly. “But sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a person who is in the process of changing.”

The Stormfather rumbled. He didn’t like the idea of change.

Do I go to war with the other kingdoms, Dalinar thought, and maybe save the world? Or do I sit here and pretend that I can do all this on my own?

“Do you have any more visions of Nohadon?” Dalinar asked the Stormfather, hopeful.

I have shown you all that was created for you to see, the Stormfather said. I can show no more.

“Then I should like to rewatch the vision where I met Nohadon,” Dalinar said. “Though let me go fetch Navani before you begin. I want her to record what I say.”

Would you rather I show the vision to her as well? the Stormfather asked. She could record it herself that way.

Dalinar froze. “You can show the visions to others?”

I was given this leave: to choose those who would best be served by the visions. He paused, then grudgingly continued. To choose a Bondsmith.

No, he did not like the idea of being bonded, but it was part of what he’d been commanded to do.

Dalinar barely considered that thought.

The Stormfather could show the visions to others.

“Anyone?” Dalinar said. “You can show them to anyone?”

During a storm, I can approach anyone I choose, the Stormfather said. But you do not have to be in a storm, so you can join a vision in which I have placed someone else, even if you are distant.

Storms! Dalinar bellowed a laugh.

What have I done? the Stormfather asked.

“You’ve just solved my problem!”

The problem from The Way of Kings?

“No, the greater one. I’ve been wishing for a way to meet with the other monarchs in person.” Dalinar grinned. “I think that in a coming highstorm, Queen Fen of Thaylenah is going to have a quite remarkable experience.”

 


 

Chapter 29
No Backing Down

So sit back. Read, or listen, to someone who has passed between realms.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

Veil prowled through the Breakaway market, hat pulled low, hands in her pockets. Nobody else seemed to be able to hear the beast that she did.

Regular shipments of supplies through Jah Keved via King Taravangian had set the market bustling. Fortunately, with a third Radiant capable of working the Oathgate now, less of Shallan’s time was required.

Spheres that glowed again, and several highstorms as proof that that would persist, had encouraged everyone. Excitement was high, trading brisk. Drink flowed freely from casks emblazoned with the royal seal of Jah Keved. Lurking within it all, somewhere, was a predator that only Veil could hear.

She heard the thing in the silence between laughter. It was the sound of a tunnel extending into the darkness. The feel of breath on the back of your neck in a dark room.

How could they laugh while that void watched?

It had been a frustrating four days. Dalinar had increased patrols to almost ridiculous levels, but those soldiers weren’t watching the right way. They were too easily seen, too disruptive. Veil had set her men to a more targeted surveillance in the market.

So far, they’d found nothing. Her team was tired, as was Shallan, who suff red from the long nights as Veil. Fortunately, Shallan wasn’t doing anything particularly useful these days. Sword training with Adolin each day—more frolicking and flirting than useful swordplay—and the occasional meeting with Dalinar where she had nothing to add but a pretty map.

Veil though… Veil hunted the hunter. Dalinar acted like a soldier: increased patrols, strict rules. He asked his scribes to find him evidence of spren attacking people in historical records.

He needed more than vague explanations and abstract ideas—but those were the very soul of art. If you could explain something perfectly, then you’d never need art. That was the difference between a table and a beautiful woodcutting. You could explain the table: its purpose, its shape, its nature. The woodcutting you simply had to experience.

She ducked into a tent tavern. Did it seem busier in here than on previous nights? Yes. Dalinar’s patrols had people on edge. They were avoiding the darker, more sinister taverns in favor of ones with good crowds and bright lights.

Gaz and Red stood beside a pile of crates, nursing drinks and wearing plain trousers and shirts, not uniforms. She hoped they weren’t too intoxicated yet. Veil pushed up to their position, crossing her arms on the boxes.

“Nothing yet,” Gaz said with a grunt. “Same as the other nights.”

“Not that we’re complaining,” Red added, grinning as he took a long pull on his drink. “This is the kind of soldiering I can really get behind.”

“It’s going to happen tonight,” Veil said. “I can smell it in the air.”

“You said that last night, Veil,” Gaz said.

Three nights ago, a friendly game of cards had turned to violence, and one player had hit another over the head with a bottle. That often wouldn’t have been lethal, but it had hit just right and killed the poor fellow. The perpetrator—one of Ruthar’s soldiers—had been hanged the next day in the market’s central square.

As unfortunate as the event had been, it was exactly what she’d been waiting for. A seed. An act of violence, one man striking the other. She’d mobilized her team and set them in the taverns near where the fight occurred. Watch, she’d said. Someone will get attacked with a bottle, in exactly the same way. Pick someone who looks like the man who died, and watch.

Shallan had done sketches of the murdered man, a short fellow with long drooping mustaches. Veil had distributed them; the men took her as no more than another employee.

Now… they waited.

“The attack will come,” Veil said. “Who are your targets?”

Red pointed out two men in the tent who had mustaches and were of a similar height to the dead man. Veil nodded and dropped a few low-value spheres onto the table. “Get something in you other than booze.”

“Sure, sure,” Red said as Gaz grabbed the spheres. “But tell me, sweetness, don’t you want to stay here with us a little longer?”

“Most men who have made a pass at me end up missing a finger or two, Red.”

“I’d still have plenty left to satisfy you, I promise.”

She looked back at him, then started snickering. “That was a decently good line.”

“Thanks!” He raised his mug. “So…”

“Sorry, not interested.”

He sighed, but raised his mug farther before taking a pull on it. “Where did you come from, anyway?” Gaz said, inspecting her with his single eye.

“Shallan kind of sucked me up along the way, like a boat pulling flotsam into its wake.”

“She does that,” Red said. “You think you’re done. Living out the last light of your sphere, you know? And then suddenly, you’re an honor guard to a storming Knight Radiant, and everyone’s looking up to you.”

Gaz grunted. “Ain’t that true. Ain’t that true.…”

“Keep watch,” Veil said. “You know what to do if something happens.”

They nodded. They’d send one man to the meeting place, while the other tried to tail the attacker. They knew there might be something weird about the man they chased, but she hadn’t told them everything.

Veil walked back to the meeting point, near a dais at the center of the market, close to the well. The dais looked like it had once held some kind of official building, but all that remained was the six-foot-high foundation with steps leading up to it on four sides. Here, Aladar’s officers had set up central policing operations and disciplinary facilities.

She watched the crowds while idly spinning her knife in her fingers. Veil liked watching people. That she shared with Shallan. It was good to know how the two of them were different, but it was also good to know what they had in common.

Veil wasn’t a true loner. She needed people. Yes, she scammed them on occasion, but she wasn’t a thief. She was a lover of experience. She was at her best in a crowded market, watching, thinking, enjoying.

Now Radiant… Radiant could take people or leave them. They were a tool, but also a nuisance. How could they so often act against their own best interests? The world would be a better place if they’d all simply do what Radiant said. Barring that, they could at least leave her alone.

Veil flipped her knife up and caught it. Radiant and Veil shared efficiency. They liked seeing things done well, in the right way. They didn’t suffer fools, though Veil could laugh at them, while Radiant simply ignored them.

Screams sounded in the market.

Finally, Veil thought, catching her knife and spinning. She came alert, eager, drawing in Stormlight. Where?

Vathah came barreling through the crowd, shoving aside a marketgoer. Veil ran to meet him.

“Details!” Veil snapped.

“It wasn’t like you said,” he said. “Follow me.”

The two took off back the way he’d come.

“It wasn’t a bottle to the head.” Vathah said. “My tent is near one of the buildings. The stone ones that were here in the market, you know?”

“And?” she demanded.

Vathah pointed as they drew close. You couldn’t miss the tall structure beside the tent he and Glurv had been watching. At the top, a corpse dangled from an outcropping, hanged by the neck.

Hanged. Storm it. The thing didn’t imitate the attack with the bottle… it imitated the execution that followed!

Vathah pointed. “Killer dropped the person up there, leaving them to twitch. Then the killer jumped down. All that distance, Veil. How—”

“Where?” she demanded.

“Glurv is tailing,” Vathah said, pointing.

The two charged in that direction, shoving their way through the crowds. They eventually spotted Glurv up ahead, standing on the edge of the well, waving. He was a squat man with a face that always looked swollen, as if it were trying to burst through its skin.

“Man wearing all black,” he said. “Ran straight toward the eastern tunnels!” He pointed toward where troubled marketgoers were peering down a tunnel, as if someone had just passed them in a rush.

Veil dashed in that direction. Vathah stayed with her longer than Glurv— but with Stormlight, she maintained a sprint no ordinary person could match. She burst into the indicated hallway and demanded to know if anyone had seen a man pass this way. A pair of women pointed.

Veil followed, heart beating violently, Stormlight raging within her. If she failed the chase, she’d have to wait for two more people to be assaulted—if it even happened again. The creature might hide, now that it knew she was watching.

She sprinted down this hallway, leaving behind the more populated sections of the tower. A few last people pointed down a tunnel at her shouted question.

She was beginning to lose hope as she reached the end of the hallway at an intersection, and looked one way, then the other. She glowed brightly to light the corridors for a distance, but she saw nothing in either.

She let out a sigh, slumping against the wall.

“Mmmm…” Pattern said from her coat. “It’s there.”

“Where?” Shallan asked.

“To the right. The shadows are off. The wrong pattern.”

She stepped forward, and something split out of the shadows, a figure that was jet black—though like a liquid or a polished stone, it reflected her light. It scrambled away, its shape wrong. Not fully human.

Veil ran, heedless of the danger. This thing might be able to hurt her— but the mystery was the greater threat. She needed to know these secrets.

Shallan skidded around a corner, then barreled down the next tunnel. She managed to follow the broken piece of shadow, but she couldn’t quite catch it.

The chase led her deeper into the far reaches of the tower’s ground floor, to areas barely explored, where the tunnels grew increasingly confusing. The air smelled of old things. Of dust and stone left alone for ages. The strata danced on the walls, the speed of her run making them seem to twist around her like threads in a loom.

The thing dropped to all fours, light from Shallan’s glow reflecting off its coal skin. It ran, frantic, until it hit a turn in the tunnel ahead and squeezed into a hole in the wall, two feet wide, near the floor.

Radiant dropped to her knees, spotting the thing as it wriggled out the other side of the hole. Not that thick, she thought, standing. “Pattern!” she demanded, thrusting her hand to the side.

She attacked the wall with her Shardblade, slicing chunks free, dropping them to the floor with a clatter. The strata ran all the way through the stone, and the pieces she carved off had a forlorn, broken beauty to them.

Engorged with Light, she shoved up against the sliced wall, finally breaking through into a small room beyond.

Much of its floor was taken up by the mouth of a pit. Circled by stone steps with no railing, the hole bored down through the rock into darkness. Radiant lowered her Shardblade, letting it slice into the rock at her feet. A hole. Like her drawing of spiraling blackness, a pit that seemed to descend into the void itself.

She released her Shardblade, falling to her knees.

“Shallan?” Pattern asked, rising up from the ground near where the Blade had vanished.

“We’ll need to descend.”

“Now?”

She nodded. “But first… first, go and get Adolin. Tell him to bring soldiers.”

Pattern hummed. “You won’t go alone, will you?”

“No. I promise. Can you make your way back?”

Pattern buzzed affirmatively, then zipped off across the ground, dimpling the floor of the rock. Curiously, the wall near where she’d broken in showed the rust marks and remnants of ancient hinges. So there was a secret door to get into this place.

Shallan kept her word. She was drawn toward that blackness, but she wasn’t stupid. Well, mostly not stupid. She waited, transfixed by the pit, until she heard voices from the hallway behind her. He can’t see me in Veil’s clothing! she thought, and started to reawaken. How long had she been kneeling there?

She took off Veil’s hat and long white coat, then hid them behind the debris. Stormlight enfolded her, painting the image of a havah over her trousers, gloved hand, and tight buttoned shirt.

Shallan. She was Shallan again—innocent, lively Shallan. Quick with a quip, even when nobody wanted to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes over-eager. She could be that person.

That’s you, a part of her cried as she adopted the persona. That’s the real you. Isn’t it? Why do you have to paint that face over another?

She turned as a short, wiry man in a blue uniform entered the room, grey dusting his temples. What was his name again? She’d spent some time around Bridge Four in the last few weeks, but still hadn’t learned them all.

Adolin strode in next, wearing Kholin blue Shardplate, faceplate up, Blade resting on his shoulder. Judging from the sounds out in the hallway— and the Herdazian faces that peeked into the room—he had brought not only soldiers, but the entirety of Bridge Four.

That included Renarin, who clomped in after his brother, clad in slate-colored Shardplate. Renarin looked far less frail when fully armored, though his face didn’t seem like a soldier’s, even if he had stopped wearing his spectacles.

Pattern approached and tried to slide up her illusory dress, but then stopped, backing away and humming in pleasure at the lie. “I found him!” he proclaimed. “I found Adolin!”

“I see that,” Shallan said.

“He came at me,” Adolin said, “in the training rooms, screaming that you’d found the killer. Said that if I didn’t come, you’d probably—and I quote—‘go do something stupid without letting me watch.’ ”

Pattern hummed. “Stupidity. Very interesting.”

“You should visit the Alethi court sometime,” Adolin said, stepping over to the pit. “So…”

“We tracked the thing that has been assaulting people,” Shallan said. “It killed someone in the market, then it came here.”

“The… thing?” one of the bridgemen asked. “Not a person?”

“It’s a spren,” Shallan whispered. “But not like one I’ve ever seen. It’s able to imitate a person for a time—but it eventually becomes something else. A broken face, a twisted shape…”

“Sounds like that girl you’ve been seeing, Skar,” one of the bridgemen noted.

“Ha ha,” Skar said dryly. “How about we toss you in that pit, Eth, and see how far down this thing goes?”

“So this spren,” Lopen said, approaching the pit, “it, sure, killed Highprince Sadeas?”

Shallan hesitated. No. It had killed Perel in copying the Sadeas murder, but someone else had murdered the highprince. She glanced at Adolin, who must have been thinking the same thing, for how solemn his expression was.

The spren was the greater threat—it had performed multiple murders. Still, it made her uncomfortable to acknowledge that her investigation hadn’t taken them a single step closer to finding who had killed the highprince.

“We must have passed by this point a dozen times,” a soldier said from behind. Shallan started; that voice was female. Indeed, she’d mistaken one of Dalinar’s scouts—the short woman with long hair—for another bridgeman, though her uniform was diff rent. She was inspecting the cuts Shallan had made to get into this room. “Don’t you remember scouting right past that curved hallway outside, Teft?”

Teft nodded, rubbing his bearded chin. “Yeah, you’re right, Lyn. But why hide a room like this?”

“There’s something down there,” Renarin whispered, leaning out over the pit. “Something… ancient. You’ve felt it, haven’t you?” He looked up at Shallan, then the others in the room. “This place is weird; this whole tower is weird. You’ve noticed it too, right?”

“Kid,” Teft said, “you’re the expert on what’s weird. We’ll trust your word.”

Shallan looked with concern toward Renarin at the insult. He just grinned, as one of the other bridgemen slapped him on the back—Plate notwithstanding—while Lopen and Rock started arguing over who was truly the weirdest among them. In a moment of surprise, she realized that Bridge Four had actually assimilated Renarin. He might be the lighteyed son of a highprince, resplendent in Shardplate, but here he was just another bridgeman.

“So,” one of the men said, a handsome, muscled fellow with arms that seemed too long for his body, “I assume we’re heading down into this awful crypt of terror?”

“Yes,” Shallan said. She thought his name was Drehy.

“Storming lovely,” Drehy said. “Marching orders, Teft?”

“That’s up to Brightlord Adolin.”

“I brought the best men I could find,” Adolin said to Shallan. “But I feel like I should bring an entire army instead. You sure you want to do this now?”

“Yes,” Shallan said. “We have to, Adolin. And… I don’t know that an army would make a difference.”

“Very well. Teft, give us a hefty rearguard. I don’t fancy having something sneak up on us. Lyn, I want accurate maps—stop us if we get too far ahead of your drawing. I want to know my exact line of retreat. We go slowly, men. Be ready to perform a controlled, careful retreat if I command it.”

Some shuffling of personnel followed. Then the group finally started down the staircase, single file, Shallan and Adolin near the center of the pack. The steps jutted right from the wall, but were wide enough that people would be able to pass on their way up, so there was no danger of falling off She tried to keep from brushing anyone, as it might disturb the illusion that she was wearing her dress.

The sound of their footsteps vanished into the void. Soon they were alone with the timeless, patient darkness. The light of the sphere lanterns the bridgemen carried didn’t seem to stretch far in that pit. It reminded Shallan of the mausoleum carved into the hill near her manor, where ancient Davar family members had been Soulcast to statues.

Her father’s body hadn’t been placed there. They had lacked the funds to pay for a Soulcaster—and besides, they’d wanted to pretend he was alive. She and her brothers had burned the body, as the darkeyes did.

Pain…

“I have to remind you, Brightness,” Teft said from in front of her, “you can’t expect anything… extraordinary from my men. For a bit, some of us sucked up light and strutted about like we were Stormblessed. That stopped when Kaladin left.”

“It’ll come back, gancho!” Lopen said from behind her. “When Kaladin returns, we’ll glow again good.”

“Hush, Lopen,” Teft said. “Keep your voice down. Anyway, Brightness, the lads will do their best, but you need to know what—and what not—to expect.”

Shallan hadn’t been expecting Radiant powers from them; she’d known about their limitation already. All she needed were soldiers. Eventually, Lopen tossed a diamond chip into the hole, earning him a glare from Adolin.

“It might be down there waiting for us,” the prince hissed. “Don’t give it warning.”

The bridgeman wilted, but nodded. The sphere bounced as a visible pinprick below, and Shallan was glad to know that at least there was an end to this descent. She’d begun to imagine an infinite spiral, like with old Dilid, one of the ten fools. He ran up a hillside toward the Tranquiline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet—running for eternity, but never making progress.

Several bridgemen let out audible sighs of relief as they finally reached the bottom of the shaft. Here, piles of splinters scattered at the edges of the round chamber, covered in decayspren. There had once been a banister for the steps, but it had fallen to the effects of time.

The bottom of the shaft had only one exit, a large archway more elaborate than others in the tower. Up above, almost everything was the same uniform stone—as if this whole tower had been carved in one go. Here, the archway was of separately placed stones, and the walls of the tunnel beyond were lined with bright mosaic tiles.

Once they entered the hall, Shallan gasped, holding up a diamond broam. Gorgeous, intricate pictures of the Heralds—made of thousands of tiles— adorned the ceiling, each in a circular panel.

The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?

Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren… ten kinds of spren. One for each order?

Adolin sent a vanguard a short distance ahead, and soon they returned. “Metal doors ahead, Brightlord,” Lyn said. “One on each side of the hall.”

Shallan pried her eyes away from the murals, joining the main body of the force as they moved. They reached the large steel doors and stopped, though the corridor itself continued onward. At Shallan’s prompting, the bridgemen tried them, but couldn’t get them open.

“Locked,” Drehy said, wiping his brow.

Adolin stepped forward, sword in hand. “I’ve got a key.”

“Adolin…” Shallan said. “These are artifacts from another time. Valuable and precious.”

“I won’t break them too much,” he promised.

“But—”

“Aren’t we chasing a murderer?” he said. “Someone who is likely to, say, hide in a locked room?”

She sighed, then nodded as he waved everyone back. She tucked her safehand, which had brushed him, back under her arm. It was so strange to feel like she was wearing a glove, but to see her hand as sleeved. Would it really have been so bad to let Adolin know about Veil?

A part of her panicked at the idea, so she let go of it quickly.

Adolin rammed his Blade through the door just above where the lock or bar would be, then swept it down. Teft tried the door, and was able to shove it open, hinges grinding loudly.

The bridgemen ducked in first, spears in hand. For all Teft’s insistence that she wasn’t to expect anything exceptional of them, they took point without orders, even though there were two Shardbearers at the ready.

Adolin rushed in after the bridgemen to secure the room, though Renarin wasn’t paying much attention. He’d walked a few steps farther down the main corridor, and now stood still, staring deeper into the depths, sphere held absently in one gauntleted hand, Shardblade in the other.

Shallan stepped up hesitantly beside him. A cool breeze blew from behind them, as if being sucked into that darkness. The mystery lurked in that direction, the captivating depths. She could sense it more distinctly now. Not an evil really, but a wrongness. Like the sight of a wrist hanging from an arm after the bone is broken.

“What is it?” Renarin whispered. “Glys is frightened, and won’t speak.”

“Pattern doesn’t know,” Shallan said. “He calls it ancient. Says it’s of the enemy.”

Renarin nodded.

“Your father doesn’t seem to be able to feel it,” Shallan said. “Why can we?”

“I… I don’t know. Maybe—”

“Shallan?” Adolin said, looking out of the room, his faceplate up. “You should see this.”

The wreckage inside the room was more decayed than most they’d found in the tower. Rusted clasps and screws clung to bits of wood. Decomposed heaps ran in rows, containing bits of fragile covers and spines.

A library. They’d finally found the books Jasnah had dreamed of discovering.

They were ruined.

With a sinking feeling, Shallan moved through the room, nudging at piles of dust and splinters with her toes, frightening off decayspren. She found some shapes of books, but they disintegrated at her touch. She knelt between two rows of fallen books, feeling lost. All that knowledge… dead and gone.

“Sorry,” Adolin said, standing awkwardly nearby.

“Don’t let the men disturb this. Maybe… maybe there’s something Navani’s scholars can do to recover it.”

“Want us to search the other room?” Adolin asked.

She nodded, and he clanked off. A short time later, she heard hinges creak as Adolin forced open the door.

Shallan suddenly felt exhausted. If these books here were gone, then it was unlikely they’d find others better preserved.

Forward. She rose, brushing off her knees, which only reminded her that her dress wasn’t real. You aren’t here for this secret anyway.

She stepped out into the main hallway, the one with the murals. Adolin and the bridgemen were exploring the room on the other side, but a quick glance showed Shallan that it was a mirror of the one they’d left, furnished only with piles of debris.

“Um… guys?” Lyn, the scout, called. “Prince Adolin? Brightness Radiant?”

Shallan turned from the room. Renarin had walked farther down the corridor. The scout had followed him, but had frozen in the hallway. Renarin’s sphere illuminated something in the distance. A large mass that reflected the light, like glistening tar.

“We shouldn’t have come here,” Renarin said. “We can’t fight this. Stormfather.” He stumbled backward. “Stormfather…”

The bridgemen hastened into the hallway in front of Shallan, between her and Renarin. At a barked order from Teft, they made a formation spanning from one side of the main hallway to the other: a line of men holding spears low, with a second line behind holding more spears higher in an overhand grip.

Adolin burst out of the second library room, then gaped at the undulating shape in the distance. A living darkness.

That darkness seeped down the hallway. It wasn’t fast, but there was an inevitability about the way it coated everything, flowing up the sides of the walls, onto the ceiling. On the ground, shapes split from the main mass, becoming figures that stepped as if from the surf. Creatures that had two feet and soon grew faces, with clothing that rippled into existence.

“She’s here,” Renarin whispered. “One of the Unmade. Re-Shephir… the Midnight Mother.”

“Run, Shallan!” Adolin shouted. “Men, start back up the hall.” Then—of course—he charged at the flood of things.

The figures… they look like us, Shallan thought, stepping back, farther from the line of bridgemen. There was one midnight creature that looked like Teft, and another that was a copy of Lopen. Two larger shapes seemed to be wearing Shardplate. Except they were made of shiny tar, their features blobby, imperfect.

The mouths opened, sprouting spiny teeth.

“Make a careful retreat, like the prince ordered!” Teft called. “Don’t get boxed in, men! Hold the line! Renarin!”

Renarin still stood out in front, holding forth his Shardblade: long and thin, with a waving pattern to the metal. Adolin reached his brother, then grabbed his arm and tried to tow him back.

He resisted. He seemed mesmerized by that line of forming monsters.

“Renarin! Attention!” Teft shouted. “To the line!”

The boy’s head snapped up at the command and he scrambled—as if he weren’t the cousin of the king—to obey his sergeant’s order. Adolin retreated with him, and the two fell into formation with the bridgemen. Together, they pulled backward through the main hall.

Shallan backed up, staying roughly twenty feet behind the formation. Suddenly, the enemy moved with a burst of speed. Shallan cried out, and the bridgemen cursed, turning spears as the main mass of darkness swept up along the sides of the corridor, covering the beautiful murals.

The midnight figures dashed forward, charging the line. An explosive, frantic clash followed, bridgemen holding formation and striking at creatures who suddenly began forming on the right and left, coming out of the blackness on the walls. The things bled vapor when struck, a darkness that hissed from them and dissipated into the air.

Like smoke, Shallan thought.

The tar swept down from the walls, surrounding the bridgemen, who circled to keep themselves from being attacked at the rear. Adolin and Renarin fought at the very front, hacking with Blades, leaving dark figures to hiss and gush smoke in pieces.

Shallan found herself separated from the soldiers, an inky blackness between them. There didn’t seem to be a duplicate for her.

The midnight faces bristled with teeth. Though they thrust with spears, they did so awkwardly. They struck true now and then, wounding a bridgeman, who would pull back into the center of the formation to be hastily bandaged by Lyn or Lopen. Renarin fell into the center and started to glow with Stormlight, healing those who were hurt.

Shallan watched all this, feeling a numbing trance settle over her. “I… know you,” she whispered to the blackness, realizing it was true. “I know what you’re doing.”

Men grunted and stabbed. Adolin swept before himself, Shardblade trailing black smoke from the creatures’ wounds. He chopped apart dozens of the things, but new ones continued forming, wearing familiar shapes. Dalinar. Teshav. Highprinces and scouts, soldiers and scribes.

“You try to imitate us,” Shallan said. “But you fail. You’re a spren. You don’t quite understand.”

She stepped toward the surrounded bridgemen.

“Shallan!” Adolin called, grunting as he cleaved three figures before him. “Escape! Run!”

She ignored him, stepping up to the darkness. In front of her—at the closest point of the ring—Drehy stabbed a figure straight through the head, sending it stumbling back. Shallan seized its shoulders, spinning it toward her. It was Navani, a gaping hole in her face, black smoke escaping with a hiss. Even ignoring that, the features were off. The nose too big, one eye a little higher than the other.

It dropped to the floor, writhing as it deflated like a punctured wineskin.

Shallan strode right up to the formation. The things fled her, shying to the sides. Shallan had the distinct and terrifying impression that these things could have swept the bridgemen away at will—overwhelming them in a terrible black tide. But the Midnight Mother wanted to learn; she wanted to fight with spears.

If that was so, however, she was growing impatient. The newer figures forming up were increasingly distorted, more bestial, spiny teeth spilling from their mouths.

“Your imitation is pathetic,” Shallan whispered. “Here. Let me show you how it’s done.”

Shallan drew in her Stormlight, going alight like a beacon. Things screamed, pulling away from her. As she stepped around the formation of worried bridgemen—wading into the blackness at their left flank—figures extended from her, shapes growing from light. The people from her recently rebuilt collection.

Palona. Soldiers from the hallways. A group of Soulcasters she’d passed two days ago. Men and women from the markets. Highprinces and scribes. The man who had tried to pick up Veil at the tavern. The Horneater she’d stabbed in the hand. Soldiers. Cobblers. Scouts. Washwomen. Even a few kings.

A glowing, radiant force.

Her figures spread out to surround the beleaguered bridgemen like sentries. This new, glowing force drove the enemy monsters back, and the tar withdrew along the sides of the hall, until the path of retreat was open. The Midnight Mother dominated the darkness at the end of the hall, the direction they had not yet explored. It waited there, and did not recede farther.

The bridgemen relaxed, Renarin muttering as he healed the last few who had been hurt. Shallan’s cohort of glowing figures moved forward and formed a line with her, between darkness and bridgemen.

The creatures formed again from the blackness ahead, growing more ferocious, like beasts. Featureless blobs with teeth sprouting from slit mouths.

“How are you doing this?” Adolin asked, voice ringing from within his helm. “Why are they afraid?”

“Has someone with a knife—not knowing who you were—ever tried to threaten you?”

“Yeah. I just summoned my Shardblade.”

“It’s a little like that.” Shallan stepped forward, and Adolin joined her. Renarin summoned his Blade and took a few quick steps to reach them, his Plate clicking.

The darkness pulled back, revealing that the hallway opened up into a room ahead. As she approached, Shallan’s Stormlight illuminated a bowl-like chamber. The center was dominated by a heaving black mass that undulated and pulsed, stretching from floor to ceiling some twenty feet above.

The midnight beasts tested forward against her light, no longer seeming as intimidated.

“We have to choose,” Shallan said to Adolin and Renarin. “Retreat or attack?”

“What do you think?”

“I don’t know. This creature… she’s been watching me. She’s changed how I see the tower. I feel like I understand her, a connection I cannot explain. That can’t be a good thing, right? Can we even trust what I think?”

Adolin raised his faceplate and smiled at her. Storms, that smile. “Highmarshal Halad always said that to beat someone, you must first know them. It’s become one of the rules we follow in warfare.”

“And… what did he say about retreat?”

“ ‘Plan every battle as if you will inevitably retreat, but fight every battle like there is no backing down.’”

The main mass in the chamber undulated, faces appearing from its tarry surface—pressing out as if trying to escape. There was something beneath the enormous spren. Yes, it was wrapped around a pillar that reached from the floor of the circular room to its ceiling.

The murals, the intricate art, the fallen troves of information… This place was important.

Shallan clasped her hands before herself, and the Patternblade formed in her palms. She twisted it in a sweaty grip, falling into the dueling stance Adolin had been teaching her.

Holding it immediately brought pain. Not the screaming of a dead spren. Pain inside. The pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome.

“Bridgemen,” Adolin called. “You willing to give it another go?”

“We’ll last longer than you will, gancho! Even with your fancy armor.”

Adolin grinned and slammed his faceplate down. “At your word, Radiant.”

She sent her illusions in, but the darkness didn’t shy before them as it had previously. Black figures attacked her illusions, testing to find that they weren’t real. Dozens of these midnight men clogged the way forward.

“Clear the way for me to the thing in the center,” she said, trying to sound more certain than she felt. “I need to get close enough to touch her.”

“Renarin, can you guard my back?” Adolin asked.

Renarin nodded.

Adolin took a deep breath, then charged into the room, bursting right through the middle of an illusion of his father. He struck at the first midnight man, chopping it down, then began sweeping around him in a frenzy.

Bridge Four shouted, rushing in behind him. Together, they began to form a path for Shallan, slaying the creatures between her and the pillar.

She walked through the bridgemen, a rank of them forming a spear line to either side of her. Ahead, Adolin pushed toward the pillar, Renarin at his back preventing him from being surrounded, bridgemen in turn pushing up along the sides to keep Renarin from being overwhelmed.

The monsters no longer bore even a semblance of humanity. They struck Adolin, too-real claws and teeth scraping his armor. Others clung to him, trying to weigh him down or find chinks in the Shardplate.

They know how to face men like him, Shallan thought, still holding her Shardblade in one hand. Why then do they fear me?

Shallan wove Light, and a version of Radiant appeared near Renarin. The creatures attacked it, leaving Renarin for a moment—unfortunately, most of her illusions had fallen, collapsing into Stormlight as they were disrupted again and again. She could have kept them going, she thought, with more practice.

Instead, she wove versions of herself. Young and old, confident and frightened. A dozen different Shallans. With a shock, she realized that several were pictures she’d lost, self-portraits she’d practiced with a mirror, as Dandos the Oilsworn had insisted was vital for an aspiring artist.

Some of her selves cowered; others fought. For a moment Shallan lost herself, and she even let Veil appear among them. She was those women, those girls, every one of them. And none of them were her. They were things she used, manipulated. Illusions.

“Shallan!” Adolin shouted, voice straining as Renarin grunted and ripped midnight men off him. “Whatever you’re going to do, do it now!”

She’d stepped up to the front of the column the soldiers had won for her, right near Adolin. She tore her gaze away from a child Shallan dancing among the midnight men. Before her, the main mass—coating the pillar in the center of the room—bubbled with faces that stretched against the surface, mouths opening to scream, then submerged like men drowning in tar.

“Shallan!” Adolin said again.

That pulsing mass, so terrible, but so captivating.

The image of the pit. The twisting lines of the corridors. The tower that couldn’t be completely seen. This was why she’d come.

Shallan strode forward, arm out, and let the illusory sleeve covering her hand vanish. She pulled off her glove, stepped right up to the mass of tar and voiceless screams.

Then pressed her safehand against it.

 


 

Chapter 30
Mother of Lies

Listen to the words of a fool.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

Shallan was open to this thing. Laid bare, her skin split, her soul gaping wide. It could get in.

It was also open to her.

She felt its confused fascination with humankind. It remembered men— an innate understanding, much as newborn mink kits innately knew to fear the skyeel. This spren was not completely aware, not completely cognizant. She was a creation of instinct and alien curiosity, drawn to violence and pain like scavengers to the scent of blood.

Shallan knew Re-Shephir at the same time as the thing came to know her. The spren tugged and prodded at Shallan’s bond with Pattern, seeking to rip it free and insert herself instead. Pattern clung to Shallan, and she to him, holding on for dear life.

She fears us, Pattern’s voice buzzed in her head. Why does she fear us?

In her mind’s eye, Shallan envisioned herself holding tightly to Pattern in his humanoid form, the two of them huddled down before the spren’s attack. That image was all she could see at the moment, for the room— and everything in it—had dissolved to black.

This thing was ancient. Created long ago as a splinter of the soul of something even more terrible, Re-Shephir had been ordered to sow chaos, spawning horrors to confuse and destroy men. Over time, slowly, she’d become increasingly intrigued by the things she murdered.

Her creations had come to imitate what she saw in the world, but lacking love or affection. Like stones come alive, content to be killed or to kill with no attachment or enjoyment. No emotions beyond an overpowering curiosity, and that ephemeral attraction to violence.

Almighty above… it’s like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong.

Pattern whimpered, huddled against Shallan in his shape of a man with a stiff robe and a moving pattern for a head. She tried to shield him from the onslaught.

Fight every battle… as if there is… no backing down.

Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck.

She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

She drew upon the Stormlight within, and pushed herself farther into Re-Shephir’s essence. She couldn’t tell if it was actually happening—if she was pushing her physical body farther into the creature’s tar—or if this was all a representation of someplace else. A place beyond this room in the tower, beyond even Shadesmar.

The creature trembled, and Shallan finally saw the reason for its fear. It had been trapped. The event had happened recently in the spren’s reckoning, though Shallan had the impression that in fact centuries upon centuries had passed.

Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.

It feared her like an axehound might fear someone with a voice similar to that of its harsh master.

Shallan hung on, pressing herself against the enemy, but realization washed over her—the understanding that this thing was going to know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets.

Her ferocity and determination wavered; her commitment began to seep away.

So she lied. She insisted that she wasn’t afraid. She was committed. She’d always been that way. She would continue that way forever.

Power could be an illusion of perception. Even within yourself.

Re-Shephir broke. It screeched, a sound that vibrated through Shallan. A screech that remembered its imprisonment and feared something worse.

Shallan dropped backward in the room where they’d been fighting. Adolin caught her in a steel grip, going down on one knee with an audible crack of Plate against stone. She heard that echoing scream fading. Not dying. Fleeing, escaping, determined to get as far from Shallan as it could.

When she forced her eyes open, she found the room clean of the darkness. The corpses of the midnight creatures had dissolved. Renarin quickly knelt next to a bridgeman who had been hurt, removing his gauntlet and infusing the man with healing Stormlight.

Adolin helped Shallan sit up, and she tucked her exposed safehand under her other arm. Storms… she’d somehow kept up the illusion of the havah.

Even after all of that, she didn’t want Adolin to know of Veil. She couldn’t.

“Where?” she asked him, exhausted. “Where did it go?”

Adolin pointed toward the other side of the room, where a tunnel extended farther down into the depths of the mountain. “It fled in that direction, like moving smoke.”

“So… should we chase it down?” Eth asked, making his way carefully toward the tunnel. His lantern revealed steps cut into the stone. “This goes down a long ways.”

Shallan could feel a change in the air. The tower was… different. “Don’t give chase,” she said, remembering the terror of that conflict. She was more than happy to let the thing run. “We can post guards in this chamber, but I don’t think she’ll return.”

“Yeah,” Teft said, leaning on his spear and wiping sweat from his face. “Guards seem like a very, very good idea.”

Shallan frowned at the tone of his voice, then followed his gaze, to look at the thing Re-Shephir had been hiding. The pillar in the exact center of the room.

It was set with thousands upon thousands of cut gemstones, most larger than Shallan’s fist. Together, they were a treasure worth more than most kingdoms.

 

Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC

About the Author

Brandon Sanderson

Author

Author Brandon Sanderson is the author of the best-selling Stormlight Archive fantasy series. His published works include Elantris (2005), Warbreaker (2009), the ongoing Mistborn series, the Alcatraz and Reckoners YA series, and many more.

Following the death of Robert Jordan in 2007, Jordan's wife and editor Harriet McDougal recruited Sanderson to finish Jordan's epic multi-volume fantasy series The Wheel of Time from Jordan's extensive drafts and notes. The series was concluded in 2013 with the publication of A Memory of Light, by Jordan and Sanderson.

Wikipedia |Author Page | Goodreads

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7 years ago

Finally! Two weeks to go!

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7 years ago

Yayayay!!

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7 years ago

ESHONAI! Could it be Eshonai that does the epigraphs?

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Elliot
7 years ago

The time has come!

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Joshua
7 years ago

OMG….I want to read it….but i don’t want it to be over….what do I do…..

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7 years ago

, I just thought the same thing! Of course, last week I was firmly in the Shallan camp 

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7 years ago

YESSSS!

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7 years ago

I was leaning towards Eshonai before I read all the comments on Shallan, then I sortof shifted to Shallan lol. Now I have no idea

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7 years ago

Just finished chapter 28, and though I’m clearly Kal’s Gal, I guess I’m really Brandon’s gal. This book may well be in it’s way too becoming my favorite. I think the series already is, and that’s saying a lot because I have read some amazing books. 

I just took the week of Nov. 14 off. Thankfully, I had no trials or important meetings, so why not?!

Hope the next two are great too!! (I’m now thinking the preface writer is Dalinar though no evidence yet of his Shadesmar siting…)

 

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7 years ago

Dead books :(

Shiny things :)

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7 years ago

Props to the people who guessed Re-Shephir. 

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7 years ago

OH I BET THAT’S WHERE MIDNIGHT ESSENCE COMES FROM

That explains SO MUCH about the Desolations!  I have been confused about whether the humans would be fighting Voidbringers (parshendi?) or stonethings or thunderclasts or shadowzombies or whatever…but if this Unmade makes a whole bunch of different horrifying creatures, it makes sense oh my GOD!

(also: now it’s less EVIL KANDRA and more Pride from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood)

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7 years ago

omg omg omg omg this is so awesome!! Finally some proper action!!

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Picadelio
7 years ago

So are the “pagan” symbols Honor and Cultivation?

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7 years ago

Loved these chapters, and so excited for the book to finally get here!

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Htown32
7 years ago

Mind. Blown. Yassssss finally some Unmade action! Re-shepir actively tried to bond with Shallan, and Shallan’s description of her current state sounds similar to what we know of Pattern and Syl before they gained sentience. So during the Desolations, do the Unmade bond with some unknown person, an opposing group the Knights Radiant? The Unmade would then gain sentience and become more powerful/mobile!

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7 years ago

Well, I think I got some validation for my facet idea from last week.  That whole “pain like an Ideal” thing when Shallan finds herself forced to break down the barriers between her “personalities” and come to the natural understanding that while they are masks, they are also still her.  Also a bit of an admission that “Shallan” herself is just another mask.

I realized yesterday that the Shallan everyone else sees is also a mask.  It dawned on me that there is only one other person who knows that.  Kalladin.  He saw behind the mask during their camp-out in the highstorm.  I do not have a side in the shipping wars, but I do think that as often as honorspren and Cryptics seem to grate on each other, the Windrunner seems to understand the Lightweaver better than anyone else.  Possibly better than the Lightweaver herself does.

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7 years ago

Ch. 28:  Interesting discussions between Dalinar and Amaram, and Dalinar and Mr. T.  It’s interesting that both of these men are so absolutely convinced that they are doing what is right, or at least what they must, while Dalinar is often beset with doubts.  Kind of a depressing chapter, until the very end–at which point I started cackling like a witch.  Oooh, this is going to be wonderful!

Ch 29-30:  Continuing to worry about Shallan’s mental state here.  This whole sequence was visually awesome–I could see it very easily in my head, from Veil in the marketplace to the writhing, dark-shining mass and the armies of dark and light figures, to Shallan and Pattern huddled together in complete blackness and then Shallan falling back into reality and being caught by Adolin.  I am wondering what he thought of the multitude of Shallans.  I wonder if they’ll get a discussion about this, and other matters, soon.  I really hope she opens up to him; I’m pretty sure that if they both just stop wearing their best faces they’ll appriciate each other even more.

Sad that there is no Kaladin, though.  

@14:  Cultivation must be the tree-woman, and they mention the traditional picture of Honor, but there’s also the man with the blue sphere, so. . .Cultivation, Honor, and Odium, I am guessing.  I cannot wait to find out what this room holds!

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justcanthelpmyself
7 years ago

How many chapters do we get next week again? Do I recall correctly only two for the last batch?

What a fantastic few chapters.  So cannot wait for this book. Not even ashamed of taking off work to read it.

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7 years ago

Here are my first thoughts, again in no specific order.

– Great chapters this week, I am glad the story focused onto the Urithiru arc. After each chapter, I feared the next one would be Kaladin. No offense Kaladin, but your current story kind of break the pace.

– So Dalinar’s attempt at an alliance has failed. Nobody trusts him, nobody trusts the Alethi.

– They finally found Oathbringer and now Amaram has it. I say dual-Shardblade weaving Amaram is about to happen. I enjoyed hearing his explanations and him point out to Dalinar how he is no better, so how dare he judge him? Yeah, how dare you Dalinar?

– I expected someone to eventually call Dalinar a hypocrite, I never expected it would be Amaram.

– The story about the 4 men and the decision as to whether or not hang them… I thought this foreshadowed now the various parties may react to Adolin having murdered Sadeas. How many innoncent must die before the murder of a greater evil is authorized? This was so close to Adolin murdering Sadeas it cannot be an “accident” Brandon wrote this passage now.

– Dalinar can show his visions to other people… now this is handy.

– And so Shallan finds the creature down a dark pit. Those were great chapters. I loved reading them. I was pleased she didn’t rush into it, but instead sent for Adolin and men.

– Renarin knew its name and has been adopted into Bridge 4. It was great to see him fight. I loved reading him standing next to Adolin, having his back. This was just great. I’ve been wanting Renarin to do this for so long, so this was a great moment for me.

– They still do not know who killed Sadeas…. I bet this comes out during the final two chapters of part 1.

– So it was a Lightweaver which defeated and trapped the creature before. I am not sure I understood everything which happened, I’ll need to re-read the chapter.

– I was disturbed at Shallan NOT wanting to let Adolin know about Veil. This will be picked up by the Kaladin/Shallan shippers. Why the unease? Is the Shallan which loves Adolin the real Shallan or yet another version of Shallan?

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7 years ago

Hmm, both Dalinar and Shallan seem to view everything from a very Vorin perspective. That’s logical, but probably somewhat limiting.

I’m interested by the three figures in the paintings Shallan describes, especially since we know there are three gods on Roshar.
She names the cloud as the Almighty, and the man and woman as pagan symbols (does the Vorin faith believe that the powers of the Knights Radiant are only from Honor, or is the official church doctrine that their powers were all fake?).

However, since the women is probably Cultivation, and I always associate the colour blue with Honor (due to Syl and Kaladin), which might mean that the man could be Honor? That leaves the middle painting.

Shallan says it’s how they depict the Almighty, but to be honest this cloud, bursting with energy and light sounds a lot more ominous now that we’ve had our first look at Odium(‘s champion), shining with bright golden light..

@3 KhyEllie
I don’t know how well the content of the preface fits with Eshonai, but I’m always reminded of the fact that Eshonai doesn’t like writing.
She has mentioned that she doesn’t like to see the songs of their ancestors written down, that it strips away their souls. From that I’m guessing she would prefer to pass on her story through songs or tales, which I think makes her an unlikely candidate for the author. 

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

Very satisfying read! I had originally planned to read the whole thing over, but instead I will just re-read all the chapters together on Monday 13th so I am ready at midnight to pick up where I left off. This is going to be awesome, and I just love that all of the Bridge 4 was included. But no mention of Rlain…

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Melbu Frahma
7 years ago

I’m calling it now, when Shallan is a fully realised tier 5 radiant who has faced all of her own secret truths she will have a rematch with Re-Shephir and prevail, ending the Unmade for good.

 Due to daylight savings time in the UK I failed to realise that the chapters were going to be up an hour earlier this week…

 Excellent chapters, and only two weeks to go.

 Once again, thanks to Mr Sanderson and Tor for making these chapters available for free and in advance of release!

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anainasia
7 years ago

do we know fo sure that it is Jasnah on the cover – I have been thinking this week it could be Veil with Pattern? 

Great chapters! … 

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

The mural of the figure and the blue disk reminds me of the mural in Elantris and so could be depicting worldhopping (Elantris spoiler whited out). Or it could be Odium, as mentioned by sisteroftherain, as he is the third shard in their system alongside what is clearly Honour and Cultivation. If the former, that brings about some interesting implications.

Back to last week, it looks like the being that Shallan saw in the tunnels might actually be a world-hopping Kandra who was trying to help. Though the actions still seem strange – why not impersonate someone and pretend to have discovered where the unmade was hiding and lead her to it…

I do think Shallan will come to regret letting the Midnight Mother escape, we’ve seen in the flashback how dangerous they are.

 

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kingkaladin
7 years ago

Another week and no Kaladin :(

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7 years ago

@3 Oh cruel hope.

Shallan flinching from the truth is a reference to The Sword of Shannara or I’ll buy a hat just to eat it.

I continue to adore Renarin and Adolin. And Pattern.

Shallan attacked but could the Unmade be reformed instead? Curiosity isn’t inherently evil so it seems that Re-Shephir could be turned away from Odium. If the “intent of the splinter is curiosity (which would be great for an entity you wanted to spread quickly and wiggle into cracks) than the violence and murder isn’t an immutable part of her.

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7 years ago

@24 Yes, it’s been confirmed that the cover features Jasnah.

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Chris Jaworski
7 years ago

Storms…. we hit the motherload this week

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Clarkonator
7 years ago

I really hope that Lyn becomes a radiant (assuming she is the one who spoke to Shallon about lady radiants being fighters/ not just proper vorin women) 

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Theorycrafter
7 years ago

@27 – I doubt that an Unmade could be “redeemed” like that. The Midnight Mother was “made to sow chaos”. Similar to how the Stormfather is a splinter of Honor, Odium split pieces of himself off and made the Unmade to influence Roshar even while he was sealed away. I doubt a piece of Odium could be won over, and even if they could, I would venture that Odium would “suck” the splinter back in pretty quick.

Regardless, I think we have a creature designed for chaos who can perform her job well – anyone else thinking back to Dalinar’s vision of fighting the tar creatures that bled smoke? But for whatever reason, she ended up in Urithiru… AND Unmade can be bound to people (she tried to bind herself to Shallan in place of Pattern). I agree with the earlier comment that doing so probably increases her power exponentially.

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Joshua Danes
7 years ago

I finally have a reason to like Shallan.  She isn’t hiding, or whining, and she recognizes that her oaths aren’t complete.  I have a feeling the Kal story line will end the section.  So we wont get Kal again until the last week of chapters.  Midnight mother has been released!  And proof that they did capture at least some of the unmade in the past!

 

SOOO PSYCHED!!!!

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Whitespine
7 years ago

Thoughts from this week:

Dalinar’s discussions were very interesting when viewed in sequence like that

– the other leader’s views of Dalinar presented finally more directly (the Blackthorn who is trying to exploit them)

– Amaram’s clear declaration of how others in Alethkar view him (still as the Blackthorn who is now falsely or self-righteously cloaking himself in morality),

– the discussion of the nature, purpose, and balance of  laws and judgement

– and then finally the point that when someone is truly trying to change their initial efforts can look like hypocrisy – especially to those they have most impacted or wronged

Very excited for the next highstorm!

Totally called in my head that the hanging was what was going to be duplicated! *pat myself on the back

Overall I really liked Shallan’s two chapters. The whole thing was cool. I liked how Shallan got help (loved Pattern’s statement about her doing something stupid without him being there to watch) – a nice change from thinking she was safe as long as she had stormlight. The description of everything was awesome – pictures, fight, etc.

@21, interesting idea, I also thought that the guy in blue could be Honor, so maybe the cloud is Odium? Or is the cloud just a representation of the highstorm and the investiture contained in it?

@12 I was also excited to learn where those hellhounds Dalinar fought in vision were from.

@16 That is what it sounds like and brings up interesting possibilities – especially that the unmade maybe target current knights radiant to bond to. I also thought it was just interesting to get insight to the unmades’ purpose. That Odium made them in the same vein that Honor made the Stormfather and that Odium gave them each instructions like Honor gave the Stormfather instructions, but…. It appears that they do have some will and have been evolving over time. Cool stuff.

Anyway, really liked this week’s chapters. Crazy that the release is almost here. Excited to see how part 1 finishes.

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7 years ago

On the matter of shipping, I think this week ending up with Shallan refusing to share Veil with Adolin is a very strong sign she will break up their union, probably within the next two chapters.

So while I do think there is a “Shallan” which loves Adolin and genuinely wants to be with him, this “Shallan” isn’t the complete “Shallan”. I think, up until this chapter, Shallan was willing to pretend this “Shallan” was the real her, but now she realized she isn’t. The real Shallan is the merging of all the Shallans, but this, she cannot, doesn’t, won’t share with Adolin.

Her complete revulsion at the idea of showing her entire self to Adolin was palpable and, as such, I do think this is how our lovebirds will meet their wall.

I had thought it would Adolin’s insecurities and running away reflexes which would doom them, but it seems it will be Shallan. She will not be all of herself with him, she will not let him be a part of her life and, as such, I do think she will believe it is best if she breaks up with him. She can’t be honest with him, this week, it was very clear. Shallan will never open-up to Adolin not unless she is forced to do so and… Adolin will never force her.

She is lying to him as to whom she is and the Shallan he loves is only one of the many Shallans. I can’t say things will go better with Kaladin, I personally literally hate Kaladin and Shallan together, but it does seem as if Adolin/Shallan is nearing to an end.

Great chapters this week, but a sad day for those who wanted the “lesser” ship to prevail.

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7 years ago

Good chapters, GREAT climax! Dear Lord, the building up of the tension, the “battle” and finally, a victory!

Quick speculation: I wonder if the Lightweaver that sealed Re-Sephir away was really the Herald Shalash millennia ago at the Final battle (Aharetiam?

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susanray
7 years ago

Re-reading all the messages from the “author” of Oathbringer, the most specific clue is that he/she passed between two realms and looked into Shadesmar.  That fits both Jasnah and Szeth.  Could it also fit Hoid, known also as Wit and the Fool?

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Escalante
7 years ago

The action picked up.  What a great twist to the Bondsmith and the Storm Father being able to visit others in the dreams during a storm. For all the guessing we do and share on this site, we never come close to the awesome stuff Sanderson creates.  

For being considered crazy, Shallan is cool, and tough.The black creatures sound like Midnight Essence that Dalinar fought in one of the visions.

It feels like Dalinar is getting closer to swearing another ideal.  When he figures out how Nohadon solved or should have solved the innocent among the guilty, I think we’ll see another step in his progression.

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7 years ago

Wow! Go Shallan! The fight with the unmade had me on the edge of my seat. I wonder if each of the unmade is related to an order of the Knights Radiant? Or a surge? It seems like Shallan and Renarin could both sense this one, and they both share illumination (is Shallan teaching him how to use it?). There are only nine unmade, so maybe they are related to the nine orders who abandoned their oaths? 

I am in heaven with so much Bridge Four this week. Their friendliness with Renarin makes my heart happy. I am so glad he has a group that accepts him and all his weirdness. Now if we could only get his POV.

It seems like Shallan’s Part 1 arc might be at an end here. I expect the final two chapters to be related to Dalinar’s shared vision and the culmination of Kaladin’s arc with the Parshmen. Hopefully they will reach Kholinar or wherever the gathering is taking place. Can’t wait!

 

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@25 I was trying to remember the other side – who had said the blue one was Odium. Thanks for reminding me of that option – it is interesting if the depiction of Odium relates to world hoping. But, there was no Kandra. The thing from last week was one of these midnight blobs. While Kandra can change shape and wiggle, I think there would have had to be a pile of bones left behind.

Also, I was troubled/saddened that Shallan is still confused about who she really is (that part screaming that she doesn’t need to paint Shallan over Veil, being afraid to let Adolin see Veil, her instant retreat from any thought that brings panic, etc).

Ok, can some one help me? Who the heck is Lyn? Where were we introduced to her and how is she integrated into Bridge 4?

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Aone Reo
7 years ago

@34 Gepeto

Interesting assessment and has made me consider, but my initial assessment was that it was more along the lines of Kaladin being terrified of revealing himself to Dalinar. He made it in the end, and maybe Shallan will as well. I don’t think it’s specifically Adolin that she’s scared of revealing herself to as just a general fear of revealing herself in her entirety to anyone (including the many parts of herself she hates). So it could be just as easily interpreted that the very fact that she even thought about revealing all to Adolin is an indication of her attachment to him.

Not that I’m sure either way…personally I don’t really care about who ends up with who specifically, just that Brandon Sanderson takes us for an interesting ride. Which so far is definitely happening.

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7 years ago

@20 Gepeto
Could you explain why you think the story about the four men foreshadows the trial of Adolin’s murder of Sadeas? I don’t think the story was about the authorization of a greater evil, as you said. To me it referred to the philosophy of ‘n Guilty Men‘:

“It is better that n guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”

The fact that Taravangian says the opposite provides an interesting view into his mindset. He has created this image of a kindly old ruler who is willing to provide help to anyone, regardless of money or status. I’m not so sure his opinion quite fits in with that. Combined with his intelligence level as compared to when we saw him last, it could be a bit suspicious. I wonder if Dalinar will eventually notice something’s off.

This story could be a way for Dalinar to develop (since Oathbringer is kind of his book), and find his own view of morality outside of the book he’s been holding to so closely for the past few years, since in this case it does not have an answer for him.

Now, this could play out through Sadeas’ murder, but in order for that to happen, Wouldn’t there need to be several viable suspects, of which Adolin was one? If I understand this correctly, in this case, Adolin would be willing to let someone else take the blame for this, and maybe even be executed. I can’t ever see that happening.

 

@39 Whitespine
Lyn’s a scout who helps Shallan with the map at the end of WoR. She also shows up to get Shallan when she’s drawing Urithiru in chapter 8. In that chapter she’s also the one who tells Dalinar about the second murder. And in this chapter twice. I’m guessing she and bridge four, being bodyguards/messengers/scouts might have ended up in the same places a lot in Urithiru, waiting around just outside the meeting chambers, which is possibly why they’re friendly. I believe she’s actually based on one of the beta readers (who I think is also doing the Edgedancer reread at the moment, but I’m not 100% sure since her name is spelled differently on the Coppermind, can someone confirm?).

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

I really haven’t boarded anyone’s “ship” but I don’t think that just because Shallan won’t reveal Veil and her other personas to Adolin means they don’t have a true shot at a relationship. I think she just doesn’t want anyone else (besides Dalinar and The Ghostbloods) knowing the true extent of her abilities to change into someone else completely. I think it is a perfectly natural thing to do, especially from her viewpoint whereas she actually believes that Veil and Radiant are quite different people from Shallan. I think eventually she will tell Adolin, probably around the time she finds out/figures out that he killed Sadeas.  

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7 years ago

The Shardblade that Renarin is using – is that Glys or old his old Blade? 

@34 Gepeto, @40 Aone Reo

I would agree with you, Aone Reo. I think it’s very much in the vein of “who do I want to be,” like Kaladin. She’s still afraid to acknowledge her “true” self so I don’t think that she could even show Adolin that if she wanted to anyway. 

@42, Kal’s Gal

Well said. 

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7 years ago

@39: Thinking back some more about Bridge 4 camaraderie with Renarin, while it did warmed my heart he would find a place to call home, it also made me realize how alone Adolin is. No friends. He banters and laugh with Bridge 4, but he is not one of them. I thought this scene perhaps showed the chasm which is starting to form in between the brothers.

Adolin has chosen his path: he will be a steady soldier, he will not falter, he will never betray his secret, he will obey all orders, but it will be a lonely life.

Renarin has joined forced with other people, finally finding belonging.

@40: Her fears seemed very geared towards Adolin, so while I agree she probably fears revealing herself to everyone, it is with Adolin her behavior matters the most. In shorts, I think she realized she can’t be lying to him, either she tells him the truth or she breaks it up because currently, she is not being fair.

I also think she made her decision. She will NOT tell the truth to Adolin.

I would personally prefer all young characters remain single up until the end of the first arc then to read a Kaladin/Shallan romance. I have however to admit Brandon has seriously been hinting towards it, so I may have to grind my teeth and power through with it. Luckily, the romance arc was never meant to be a major arc.

On Shardblades because I Forgot to mention it: Oathbringer. It likes Dalinar. It is dead and yet not dead. And here we were thinking it was Adolin who’d revive his Blade.

It will not be him. His Blade is dead-dead as in completely dead. I can’t say Dalinar will revive Oathbringer, but it does put a nail into a fan’s favorite theory. Oh well, we all knew it was a very long shot. Adolin is meant to be the faithful soldier and the steady side-kick, not a Radiant.

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7 years ago

@42 Especially since she was just freaking out about how she was treating “Shallan” like just another persona. Telling Adolin about Veil would make her more real. It’s one thing to have multiple personas in her head, it’s another to verbalize them to someone else. It’s not about Adolin, it’s about Shallan’s growing confusion over her own identity. Every chapter seems to show it’s getting harder for to keep her sense of self. It seems like she needs to accept her internal contradictions (a happy, traumatized murderer) or to start forgetting irreconcilable facts. Or find some other new and interesting coping mechanism. 

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Kreshamar
7 years ago

Hadn’t someone said or at least speculated that the strata in the hallways used to glow? Could that be what the pillar of gemstones is used to power? I wonder what else it could have been used for, or if the gemstones are even infused/how they could become infused while being inside.

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7 years ago

@36 yeah I thought so as well! But then I wondered. . . . “So sit back. Read, or listen, to someone who has passed between realms.

—From Oathbringer, preface”

What does this imply? I’m not terribly familiar with all Sanderson’s worlds and such, but the sense seems to be that the writer has passed between MORE than two realms, does it not? Could this be an actual suggestion of Worldhopping, and not just Shadesmar-ing? Or am I just missing something else. . . .? Maybe not passed between more than two realms, maybe simply two of the many realms they know there to be. mmmm idk. Im probly overthinking it a ton.

So good to see Shallan is at least aware of her fears/weaknesses. The previous chapters she seems to just have been ignoring or retreating from the ghosts of her past. Now at least she seems to see the need for improvement and eventual confrontation.

But yes. . . .

@34 Gepeto I definitely feel the same as you with regards to her continued weakness. . . .  we will have to see what comes next!

Very sad she seems still so hesitant with Adolin. I feel like for all the page time Shallan has had, we’ve actually come terribly little distance in terms of actually CONQUERING her ghosts. Compared to perhaps Kaladin’s or Dalinar’s memories (ahh yeah weird no further mention of his memories returning). . . . She’s improved her powers, made connections, made friends; but whenever something threatens, it seems her past all comes rushing up again and the overall result is this precarious fragility which seems ready to topple at anytime.

 

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7 years ago

the best day of the week!!!

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7 years ago

@21 same thoughts. . . . It would seem very Sanderson-esque to have some huge twists revealed sometime near the end of the series, where the fundamental basis for Vorinism/Desolations/Radiants/EVERYTHING is revealed to be perfectly NOT what they thought, or some such thing. . . . I am sure some twists are coming, and as I read that I was wondering how the Almighty, the Stormfather, and the Radiants might play into it. Obviously I suppose lol.

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7 years ago

@41: It wasn’t so much the hanging of the four men which tipped me off, but this passage:

It’s a matter of thresholds. How many guilty may be punished before you’d accept one innocent casualty? A thousand? Ten thousand? A hundred? When you consider, all calculations are meaningless except one. Has more good been done than evil?

It really made me think of Adolin murdering Sadeas as it was a bad action done to prevent further harm. Taravangian argues the price to pay is worth it depending on where the threshold is. Dalinar states such actions can never be done. Thus, once Dalinar learns about Adolin, will he agree Sadeas needed to die to prevent further harm or will he insists it was unfair?

I don’t think Adolin would ever let anyone be blamed but him, but he will never agree he did wrong.

This is how I read it. Anyway, unless someone magically finds a clue onto the murder scene (which is growing more unlikely as the weeks pass), nobody will ever know about Sadeas, hence Dalinar will never have to reflect on it, still shall he reflect on it, this discussion was interesting.

@42: I thought Shallan’s last thoughts was a great show stopped for her relationship with Adolin. Besides, it is almost written into the stars they will never work: I have been looking for the signs of their inevitable break-up. I thought he’d come from him, but this week, I feel as if I have been wrong.

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John
7 years ago

colud the man with the blue sphere be a representation of adonalsium? (Spelling)

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Barf
7 years ago

Two Shallan chapters and no Kaladin?  Ugh.

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7 years ago

Huh, I have written in the comments to the previous set of chapters a few hours ago that if Dalinar is the author of “Oathbringer”, then we’ll eventually find out that he had bonded Nergaoul during the Rift episode and his boon was the breaking of that bond. With “fallen”, “something worse” and a glimpse of Shadesmar all being part of that event. Also, Dalinar’s realisations in this chapter make it even more likely that he dictated “Oathbringer”.

And now we had Re-Shepir’s attempt to bond Shallan! This makes me wonder – is bonding humans/listeners something that the Unmade used to do during the previous Desolations? Or is it another new thing this time around? If so, Our Heroes are in for a world of pain. And Kaladin is likely on his way to meet such a bonded pair. Could Aesudan be part of it? It seems that the Unmade may have been grooming a number of susceptible people…

Of course, this raises the question – if Re-Shepir had been bound by a Lighweaver, how and when was she freed? That sphere that Szeth buried somewhere in Ja-Kheved was black, wasn’t it? But, supposedly, nobody knows about it? And also, if Re-Shepir is afraid of Lightweavers, then she couldn’t have been the reason for the abandonment of Urithiru, which happened even before the Recreance. Also, can an Unmade be somehow barred  from returning? I would have thought that the stronghold of the KR, of all places, would have been protected against them. But maybe, that’s what all those gems that Re-Shepir covered are for, once they are charged.

Great stuff in Dalinar’s chapter of course – and finally some way out of the stalemate. I am really glad that somebody held a mirror to him and it is hilarious and yet so fitting, that it was Amaram. I can’t wait for Gavilar’s dealings to come out, though.

It would be also very ironic if the storm image stands for Odium, but is now believed to be that of Honor. Who, I firmly believe, is the man with the blue disc, blue being so prominently associated with the honorspren. Or it may be a general symbol of investiture or even Adonalsium – both of which predate the Shards on Roschar.

And here I have been complaining about the lack of interaction between the characters – and just as the doctor ordered, we have gotten some very sensible and awesome cooperative mission between them. Renarin seems suspiciously good at fighting though – sure it was great to see him at Adolin’s back – probably a dream come true for him, but it felt a bit too quick and easy. Oh, well.

And, probably, people will say that Shallan had yet another too easy success? Personally, I don’t care – it was really engrossing and enjoyable to read. But could it be that her opening herself to Re-Shepir like that is going to have dire consequences down the line? Also, I, among other commenters, have been proven right that “Shallan” is not not Shallan’s real self, but yet another mask. Is it what Pattern alluded to when he told her that “this is not the lie, can’t you tell”? Or is there something more? 

Something else – all the missing dead shards – at least 3/4 of those abandoned by KR during the Recreance – could they have been secreted away for the use of Odium’s forces during the Desolation?

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@@@@@ Gepeto

“I have been looking for the signs of their inevitable break-up”

Which is why you’re seeing them, try reading it looking for signs that they will last and you’ll see those too. I really don’t think it’s clear at this stage either way.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@39 whitespine

The thing Shallan saw last week was described as:

“A dark mass wriggled deep inside, squeezing between walls. Like goo, but with bits jutting out. Those were elbows, ribs, fingers splayed along one wall, each knuckle bending backward…

The thing twisted, head deforming in the tiny confines, and looked toward her. She saw eyes reflecting her light, twin spheres set in a mashed head, a distorted human visage.”

Now I do concede that this could be describing a midnight essence, however I’m not convinced. For a start they can just congeal out of a shapeless mass, so why not just return to a shapeless mass to travel through the confined space? Also, the midnight essences are reflective which surely Shallan would have noticed. This reminds me more of TenSoon wiggling through the gaps in Shadows of Self, though with a kandra less practiced at shapeshifting (Shadows of Self spoiler). Also there’s no need for a pile of bones unless the kandra abandoned them for some reason.

Also there does appear to be some entity trying to help Shallan find the Unmade – though it does now occur to me that it could be Renarin in a trance who drew those drawings – as he did with the countdown in WoR.

Lyn is a scout in the Kholin army who seems to keep popping up – she was one of the scouts helping Shallan map the shattered plains during the final battle in WoR. She’s not part of Bridge 4, it appears Adolin sensibly brought someone along who could produce maps as he knows how winding and branching Urithuru can get.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Chapter 28

Still on the Dalinar train.

Yeah, while possibly foolish in the short term, I’m with the Azir on this one. A magical portal into the heart of your city with the most powerful warlord in the world on the other end is not a good way to maintain your sovereignty. 

Oooh, that tricky balance Dalinar, between allowing people their own sovereignty and forcing them to do what you know must be done. We have mechanisms in society to account for this. People who place themsleves under the authority of another, or agree to certain limitations of freedom to live together as a society, but these people have done none of those things with you.

And yet, what do you do when you’re convinced that the safety of people for whom you are responsible is at risk because of the decisions of people over whom you hold no authority just won’t do what you know they need to do? This is the tension between the personal liberty of two people writ on a global scale. It is the burden of kings. Will you do as your idol Nohadon did, and force everyone to your will, in order to save them? 

And the mystery of the Shardblade is finally revealed. Its right where Adolin dropped it. Showing Adolin actually has a great deal of brains. Most people would have gone back and tried to move it, with this much time elapsing.

Amaram, like a lot of people, doesn’t seem to understand that being a hypocrite is a present-tense situation. It doesn’t mean that you were one way in the past, had a change of heart, and now preach the other way. That’s not being a hypocrite, that’s being a human being, as anyone who has ever been a parent can attest. A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another. Both of those verbs are present tense.

“Well, it might make you feel better about your past, but morality is not a thing you can simply doff to put on the helm of battle, then put back on when you’re done with the slaughter.”

No, Amaram, those are the justifications of someone who can’t face the truth about himself, as Dalinar has done, and is still doing. The morality of Dalinar is not as cheap as you describe. It’s a morality that costs your entire life. One where the old man passes a way, and a new one takes its place. Its the death of self.

And someone really needs to say all of that to Dalinar right about now.

Oooh, this section with Taravangian is really compelling. I love Brandon’s honest look at how complicated morality truly is.

Sneaky Dalinar is the best Dalinar. Although invading someone’s dreams is still an awful violation of their own personal sovereignty. 

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

@50… yeah, the fact that she kept up the illusion even through the fight with the Midnight Mother only makes me further convinced that it’s not really about Adolin. She doesn’t want to be exposed. Plus, it’s not like her and Adolin are alone – if she exposed herself to Adolin she’d be exposing herself to Bridge 4 (who she just admitted to not knowing very well despite being around them for the past few weeks) and Renarin. She also kept up the charade with Vathath and Gaz, her own men! 

I don’t follow Brandon enough to know about the Kaladin/Shallan hints, but that doesn’t seem likely to me, either. Especially now that she knows about Kaladin and Helarin. (Although it’s clear she doesn’t even want to address that issue).

InhumanByte
7 years ago

I still think it’s Jasnah. She has travelled between realms, after all

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@41 Elle,

 Thanks! I had forgotten about her character in WoR, and so when she appeared at the beginning of Oathbringer I didn’t make the connection that it was a recurring character and not some random messenger. That led me to not realize she was in the main staff. Thank you.

@42 Gepeto

True, it does seem that Adolin’s only connections are his family and Shallan. And all of his family have experiences that Adolin isn’t/can’t be a part of and Shallan is only partially emotionally available at the moment.

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7 years ago

@54: Maybe you are right… but the Adolin/Shallan ship always had so little chances of success I keep thinking it will end upon the next turn of the corner. The one argument the Kaladin/Shallan ship has always had was the fact Kaladin remains the only human being Shallan was able to be herself. I had hopes she would do it with Adolin too, but it seems less and less likely as the weeks go by, just as other story arcs seem less likely.

I hope you are right and Shallan can be “Shallan” and be with Adolin.

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@53 Isilel

Regarding Renarin’s sudden competence at fighting, to be fair he is being trained by Zahel as well as Bridge 4 which would give him a grasp of the basics. Which combined with the Glys-blade, inpenetrable armour that speeds him up and strengthens him and stormlight which speeds him up and strengthens him should be enough for him to just follow his brother and defend his back.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

Just finished Chapter 28.  Way to go, Stormfather! 

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Spatial
7 years ago

Simultaneous and independent interviews where the four suspects are offered a choice: tell us who the three criminals are; if you all name the same people, the convicts will be allowed to live but have to …offer reparations (Idk, stuff like community service, monetary aid, prison or whatever – plus, if it happens again, painful death or some other incentive to be nice (…this one sounds naive, maybe silently …retire them later-ish)), while the innocent person goes free. If you do not all name the same people, all four will hang. Guide them through their choices and show the best outcomes (aka teach them Game Theory).

Assumptions are that the suspects want to continue living, that there is no animosity or the like between the three and the fourth and that “No amount of interrogation determined the truth”* just means straight-up questioning and not Games (else you gotta go through with the threat, lest it sets a bad precedent etc).

 

*Urgs, I hate it when scenarios/cases/text-exercises rule out stuff in this way (=boxing you in to a kinda predetermined set of choices) :/ 

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Aon Reo
7 years ago

@60 Gepeto

Just to be clear – I’m not predicting Adolin and Shallan will work out, I’m happy to RAFO. I was just arguing that there are  signs for both outcomes and that I think we’re jumping the gun trying to conclude one way or the other now.

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7 years ago

I think they went down far enough to where the Highstorm goes, so those gems can be recharged automatically. And I suspect Shallan was right, that somehow the strata carried that Stormlight up to other places.

Is anybody else annoyed that we still don’t know about what Renarin’s other Surge does, that he can “see”, and that Shallan never uses her Soulcasting any more? I thought she might have been about to attack with it the way Jasnah took out the muggers, but no. And I think they might have been a battle in the Spiritual Realm we saw. 

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Richard
7 years ago

Do the midnight blob people remind anyone else of the shadows from the Night pool?

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7 years ago

Taravangian was trying to justify his own actions without revealing what he has done, maybe to find out if Dalinar might join him. Dalinar obviously doesn’t agree with him. What will he do when he finds out what Taravangian has done?

Amaram is the one who’s a hypocrite. He would agree with Taravangian (at least in this point). Dalinar is honest, he just has changed, and the other monarchs don’t know/believe that.

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7 years ago

@60 I think once Kal gets back Shallan won’t be herself with him either.

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7 years ago

Anthony Pero@56: “Although invading someone’s dreams is still an awful violation of their own personal sovereignty.” When I read that passage I immediately thought of the Spell of Invaded Dreams (actually the Greater Spell, there are two) from Lawrence Watt-Evans’ Ethshar books.

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7 years ago

Finally.  We are starting to see members of Bridge Four.  Too bad Kaladin is not still at Urithiru.  It would be cool to see members of Bridge Four using their squire abilities.

Oathbringer has finally been found.  I wonder if Ialai will claim it as hers for House Sadeas.  No need, apparently.  Dalinar gave it back to her.  Politically speaking, a smart move.  Although with Dalinar, I guess it was more about the honor of the action than anything else.

After all the posts about whether Adolin would bring back the spren of his Shardblade back to life, it is Dalinar who asks whether that is possible.

Amaram and Taravangian both have the same philosophy:  The ends justify the means.  Dalinar and Kaladin moral philosophy bends more to honor over results.  Generally speaking, philosophies are neutral.  It depends upon how one practices the philosophy that makes one good or evil.  Is it evil to kill the innocent (be it the innocent hogman or the lowly spearman) to provide better protection to the whole (kill three murders or provide the Shards to one trained to use them)?  Is that any different than what Jasnah does when she baits the robbers in WoK?  We as the readers (or at least I do) like Jasnah but do not like Amaram and Taravangian.

I am sure some KRs agree with the philosophy Taravangian stated: “Has more good been done than evil?  If so, then” the action is correct (in his quote, Taravangian was talking about applying the law).

I believe Dalinar will revisit this conversation with Taravangian when he learns that Adolin killed Sadeas and he must provide a sentence/punishment to Adolin.  I wonder if Dalinar will try to find some middle ground or if he will stick to his principles.  I suspect like the author of the Ways of Kings, Dalinar will use some middle ground. This will demonstrate “you can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.” (quote attributable to John Lydgate)

That is a shocking revelation.  Part of the Stormfather’s purpose in showing people his visions was to find a Bondsmith who would then bond the Stormfather.  How things would have been different if Gavilar had advanced far enough to bond the Stormfather.

I hope we get to read the scene of Fen seeing the vision.  Even if the POV of the scene is from Dalinar.

I find it significant that in Chapter 29 Shallan is referring to herself as Veil as opposed to Shallan (“Lurking within it all, somewhere, was a predator that only Veil could hear.”).  Whereas she should be able to move between her different personas, Shallan has turned these personas into completely different people.  There seems to be no central Shallan. 

I got a chuckle about Veil’s answer about where Veil came from – Shallan “kind of sucked” Veil up.  Just the way Shallan sucks in Stormlight.

Right in the middle of the chapter, Brandon switches from Veil to Radiant.  The meaning is obvious.  Since she has the Blade in her hand, Shallan’s persona is now completely Radiant.  Although it seems that in the deepest parts of her mind, Shallan recognizes that creating these separate personas and treating them as distinct people is a problem.  Hopefully, that is a sign that the separate personas will not destroy the core who is Shallan.

I am glad Shallan kept her word to wait for Adolin.  Shallan has grown more impulsive since the start of WoR (although, in Shallan’s defense, she has not had others she could trust to help her).  It is good that she realizes that running blindly and not waiting for backup would lead to greater problems.

Why is Renarin still wearing Shardplate.  I would have thought Glys would have asked Renarin to stop wearing it.  I can only imagine the Stornfather’s reaction if Dalinar still continued to wear Shardplate.

Huh.  Highborn nobles Soulcast their dead relatives into statutes.  If a person was wasted away upon death (for example, if they had cancer), would the Soulcasted statute show the person in the image he/she was in at death or with his/her healthy image?

Three Shardbearers if you count Renarin.  Shallan must have forgotten about Renarin.  Unless she is not considering herself to be a Shardbearer at the moment.

I hope against all hope that Shallan’s encounter with the Re-Shephir will not result in the creation of an “evil Shallan.”  Like when there was a teleporter mishap and a second Kirk came through – only this one an evil reflection of the real Kirk.  That would be so lame.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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Dryone
7 years ago

OK, one theory of mine busted (sleepless as copycat murderer)

Let’s try two new ones:

Amaram get OB the sword and writes OB the book, we just haven’t seen him fall into Shadesmar and see the light yet. 

After Shallan and Adolin break up, Re-Shepir bonds Adolin and Adolin becomes Odium’s champion. 

 

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7 years ago

You know, some stories would have a small army fighting the Mother of Midnight, the creator of an entire class of monstrosities, in the bowels of an ancient fortress as the climax of an entire story. The hero would face, and ultimately have to throw off and defeat the ancient enemy, after which you would assume that all would be well for a time and the story is over for now. 

For the Stormlight Archive? That’s a Tuesday. 

Egad, this book. 

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Pete
7 years ago

Ok so I have a slightly crazy theory (don’t think I’ve read this already but if it’s slipped into my sub-conscious somehow from somewhere else, apologies). Its suggested that the unmade, or at least this unmade can be bonded like spren. Odium’s champion in Dalinar’s vision has nine shadows. Could it be possible that the champion could form bonds with each of the Unmade?

The Knights Radiant bond only one spren but could the champion perhaps bond multiple void spren (if that’s what splinters of Odium turn out to be)? It would presumably make that individual more powerful than anything we’ve yet seen. Anyway just a theory but I kinda like the idea.

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7 years ago

*Wetlandernw-like batsignal*

You haven’t commented yet, but when exactly would the reread for Oathbringer start? Asking for a friend.

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@55 Aon Reo

Fair points. I’m not positive it isn’t a kandra, I was just picturing a crawl space so small that larger bones wouldn’t fit inside and thus my comment about having to leave a pile of bones behind since it seems like before it went in it was quite solid – implying a bone structure. That’s all. But if it was a big larger space then just by rearranging them and putting them in a line you could retain them with it. It also seemed that she could sense the creature in the way she talks about sensing the midnight mother. If it is a kandra, though, that will be cool. I think they are very interesting creatures and have enjoyed the looks at them in Mistborn.

Btw, I know it is an Elantris reference, but which one is Aon Reo?

As for shipping, I am in the camp that I think Adolin and Shallan fit nicely, Kaladin and Shallan feels forced. I hope Brandon doesn’t go that way. I know he has given in text hints with having them think about each other, but it just feels unnatural. My fear that it might occur was strengthened by the beta reader article about when BS polled the beta readers on a particular decision and the writer indicated that they voted opposite of how they ever thought they would up to that point. I instantly imagined that as how I viewed the two competing romances and how I could never see myself picking Shallan and Kaladin over Shallna and Adolin but maybe Brandon makes it compelling. But I hope not, haha.

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7 years ago

@71 Variation: Adolin bonds Re-Shepir at the end of the book but stays on the light side in the next book because biology isn’t destiny. Odium is expecting that he’ll be able to re-assert his influence and rebuild his army of “Orcs.” Unfortunately for him, the “Orcs” like not being enslaved killing machines. While they may be vulnerable to Odium’s influence they can choose to resist. Adolin (or someone else who bonds Re-Shepir) will strengthen that resistance. Now that she’s had a chance to develop her curiosity away from Odium’s control, the Midnight Mother is going to find herself in conflict with her progenitor. Curiosity and hatred don’t mix very well. 

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

@71 – If it is Amaram, there is a lot we haven’t seen yet then, not just his slipping between realms. For one, he is not at all a heretic. Everything he is currently doing is in the name of his religion, so I don’t think the ardents would consider him a heretic today. 

Though Amaram is indeed a monster. So Chapter 28’s epigraph is spot-on!

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Chapter 29

No reason to change my prediction here. 

And now Shallan is so tightly in Veil’s POV here that she barely references herself as Shallan. In fact she may NOT be referencing herself. Its inconclusive. I’m reminded of the chapter headings for Arya late in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Even her soldiers are referring to her as Veil. I would LOVE to get a Gaz POV right about now. We don’t get anyone’s POV who has seen her like this and knows her. It would be enlightening.

God, they don’t even know its her. Missed that. Oh well, I guess Gaz’s POV would be useless then.

I’m telling you, Shallan, the knife in the hand was not a copycat. You made a false correlation. Its the murders, not the violence.

He can’t see me in Veil’s clothing! she thought, and started to reawaken. How long had she been kneeling there?”

Yeah. That whole sequence was disturbing to me. Reawaken? Oiy.

Lopen, how I’ve missed you. I can’t wait to listen to Michael Kramer read your character again.

Ok, Renarin, that’s not creepy AT ALL.

Midnight Mother, as in Midnight Essence?

**Spoilers for unpublished Aether of Night below**

I wonder if you can kill these things the same way as they killed the things in Aether of Night?  Never mind. Apparently these things die easily.

**End Spoilers**

I’m so glad they are continuing this POV in the next chapter. I would have screamed if they hadn’t. Very, very well done.

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7 years ago

Dalinar –
Ooooh, one has to assume finding the sword (the titular sword, no less) is going to be significant later.

I can really feel Dalinar’s frustration in not being trusted, but Amaram obviously makes good points – and I now am leaning more towards Dalinar as the preface writer as well. Unless the intent is just to draw a parallel with Dalinar and the original author.

Definitely a meaty conundrum, although I tend to err on preserving the innocent, even with the risk involved of another murder. Life is full of risks, I suppose, so I guess I’d rather not have it on my conscience that I took an ends justifies the means approach in a (vain) attempt to reduce the risk. Because even hanging all four men wouldn’t stop murder from occurring.

“But sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a person who is in the process of changing.” – ah, such a powerful thought.

Shallan –
Something about the figures was REALLY twigging my memory and then I realized they are very similar to the things in Aether of Night (right down to, if i recall, releasing vapor when they are stabbed).

I feel Shallan (and Jasnah’s) pain for the books!

Really cool to see Shallan getting a chance to show her stuff though. As well as start to probe a little bit what her facets mean.

I wonder if she’s going to attempt to soulcast it…

Shallan 2 –
Ah, even better – I have to say, one of my favorite things to read (and write, when I play around with writing) are those moments that, realistically, probably only take a few seconds to the outside observer, but stretch on as the two characters are finally knowing or realizing things and the implications that can spiral from that. In fact, since I don’t have to worry about anybody else ever reading what I write, I have the luxury of occasionally skimming past large chunks of time so I can mostly write those.

Learning about Re-Sephir is interesting, but I find learning more about Shallan even more so. It makes me a little sad that she still can’t let Adolin know Veil (although it makes sense from a pragmatic sense) but regarding the ‘lie’ she tells herself – I have to wonder if in some ways that’s what we all do to ourselves, it’s just a lot more blatant with her.

Oh, and also really glad to see Renarin get some positive interaction with Bridge 4 as well :)

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Chapter 30

Now people will be screaming Wit, no doubt. 

I find it very, very interesting that Pattern says the Unmade is of him, while Shallan says it is wrong, but not precisely evil. I think the Unmade predate the Shattering, and Odium has somehow corrupted, or hijacked them.

Well, maybe not. Its s splinter of Odium. This is a very long infodump. Brandon earned it with the last 29 chapters though.

Ha! Wonder what those gemstones are for?

I have almost nothing to say about the infodump. There wasn’t much to it. Maybe it will come into play later?

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StormItAllAgain
7 years ago

In any relationship there is a progression and at different points you’re willing to give more of yourself to that investment/relationship. Shallan not willing or be ready to divulge Veil to Adolin would be a natural part of the progression. Yes, eventually for a relationship to work, that baring of one’s self needs to happen. To see Shallan struggle with this while struggling to identify herself is very expected, if it persists it would hurt any relationship.

 

The fact that Oathbringer  (the sword) has feelings, means to me that it has a personality and to me that it’s not dead but merely “mostly dead” which actually is not the same as being dead which gives further hope for Adolin’s sword. The Storm Father says he doesn’t know it can be done, but actually he has been wrong multiple times already in the series (and even lied to Kaladin about Syl being dead, though at the time she may have been mostly dead as well), he is definitely not omniscient. Cool that Oathbringer respects Dallinar because his willingness to follow oaths… it’s Dallinar’s willingness to follow oaths and keep them that makes him exactly the opposite of a hypocrite.

 

I hope Kaladin gets together with Lyn, she is seeming more and more cool, and it would be awesome if she was like Teft’s daughter or something….

 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Gepeto@50:

If you think Brandon Sanderson is actively championing Taravangian’s world view, i don’t know what to say. There is nothing in any of his other works, that would make me think that. Quite the opposite. That philosophy is known as relativism, and I can’t think its something Brandon would ascribe to. He might present it fairly, since he actively works to refrain from setting up strawmen in his fiction, but Dalinar intrinsically knew it was wrong, and counter-argued immediately that the price of one innocent life was too high. 

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

Here’s what we have so far of the epigraphs. (I can’t believe I even get wrapped up into this futile guessing game!)

“I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist.  I needed to write it anyway.  I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims.  I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.  I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen.  I did not die.  I experienced something worse.  That moment notwithstanding, I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth.  The sum of my experiences has pointed at this moment. This decision.  Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those days in my childhood, where these ideas began.  I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand.  I ask only that you read or listen to these words.  In this record, I hold nothing back. I will try not to shy away from difficult topics, or paint myself in a dishonestly heroic light.  I will express only direct, even brutal, truth. You must know what I have done, and what those actions cost me.  For in this comes the lesson.  It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly.  You cannot have a spice described to you, but must taste it for yourself.  However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly. I would that your lesson may not be as painful as my own.  I am no storyteller, to entertain you with whimsical yarns.  I am no philosopher, to intrigue you with piercing questions.  I am no poet, to delight you with clever allusions.  I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am. I can only relate what happened, what I have done, and then let you draw conclusions.  I will confess my murders before you. Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly.  I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand. Finally, I will confess my humanity. I have been named a monster, and do not deny those claims. I am the monster that I fear we all can become. So sit back. Read, or listen, to someone who has passed between realms. Listen to the words of a fool.”

 

I still think it is Jasnah. Or Dalinar. Then maybe Zahel/Vasher. Wit is definitely a storyteller, poet, allusionist and smarter than most people, so I rule him out on that sentence alone. 

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7 years ago

Regarding Shallan/Adolin – perhaps because I’m a bit of a hopeless romantic, to me this doesn’t yet spell doom for Shallan/Adolin’s relationsihp, but could ultimately be a payoff for it: at some point Shallan WILL realize how her different selves integrate, AND would realize that she feels comfortable revealing that to Adolin, and Adolin would be able to accept that.

One other thought regarding the chapters:  any thoughts on who/what imprisoned Re-Sephir? Was it during the last battle, or maybe even the Recreance?  Hmm…

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Lightbringer@65:

Spheres don’t recharge indoors during a highstorm, that’s why they have to set them outside, and a scared of them getting stolen. Towns and houses have locked cages. They are still indoors in this scene.

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

@85 – true, but maybe that is what this ventilation system that Navani and Dalinar wondered about is for, allowing the Storms in to infuse the stormlight…  Though I admit my argument is faulty because we’ve also seen some very fancy sphere cages in which to infuse protected spheres with Stormlight on Urithiru… 

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7 years ago

 I will confess my murders before you. Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly.  I will confess my heresy. … I have been named a monster, and do not deny those claims. 

It’s Lews Therin!!  *sobs* “Ilyena!”

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7 years ago

@87 You’re lucky I wasn’t drinking anything or you’d owe me a new keyboard.

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Hawkido
7 years ago

@36  Don’t forget Vasher…  He fits pretty much all of the messages, Mr. T. does as well.

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Kreshamar
7 years ago

I’m curious as to how Renarin’s use of the illumination surge will differ from Shallan’s.

I also want to know how many ideals he has spoken, along with Malata as well, seeing as she already has a shardblade. I would really like to see more from either of them soon.

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

@87 – LOL!! Poor Lews Therin… he never got over it! 

@89 – I agree with you Vasher. I thought about Mr. T as well, but there just doesn’t seem to be enough evidence for it. Other than the monster thing. Those poor people in his hospital… still burns me up!

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

Here’s what we know of the writer of the preface, working off og KalGal’s post@83:

“You cannot have a spice described to you, but must taste it for yourself.  However, with a dangerous spice, you can be warned to taste lightly.”

Men’s food is spicy. This is not a not an analogy Jasnah would make. It is one a Vorin male, or non-Vorin, or an ancient writer might make. Later references make this a Vorin male.

I am no storyteller, to entertain you with whimsical yarns.  I am no philosopher, to intrigue you with piercing questions.  I am no poet, to delight you with clever allusions.  I have no doubt that you are smarter than I am.

These are also words that would never, ever come out of Jasnah’s mouth. I can’t see Shallan uttering them either.

Most painfully, I have killed someone who loved me dearly.  I will confess my heresy. I do not back down from the things I have said, regardless of what the ardents demand.

This screams Dalinar to me. Also, it sets the time frame post-Nohadon. There were no Vorin ardents prior to that. It also makes the speaker Vorin. They are the ones who have ardents. Put that together with the first pullquote I reference. The speaker is a Vorin male. The ardents have been harassing him regarding his heresy since his wedding. We’ve had it in five scenes so far.

Finally, I will confess my humanity. I have been named a monster, and do not deny those claims. I am the monster that I fear we all can become.

This fits Dalinar to a tee, and is relevant to what we’e been reading during these 30 chapters.

As a state last week, the only logical reason to withhold the author’s name is that it turns the epigraph from foreshadowing to outright spoiler if you know who wrote it, because some of what is referenced hasn’t happened yet, or hasn’t been revealed. I don’t feel like I’m guessing anymore. I’m certain its Dalinar. That means, the following things are going to happen/be revealed:

• Dalinar is going to physically fall at some point off of Urithiru. Maybe from an assasination attempt? Maybe he’s going to jump for some reason into a highstom? Unknown. But people will think he’s dead. Maybe its not a literal falling, but I think Dalinar is pretty literal, in general. And it fits with “hanging, fallen” etc.

• SOMEHOW, Dalinar will transition between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, or somehow get a peak into it, during this time. I have guesses. I’ll save them for now.

• Dalinar will see/experience something worse than death while hanging between the Physical and the Cognitive.

• It will be revealed that Dalinar killed Evi. He considers it murder. We’ll see if it it. Note the use of “loved me dearly” not “whom I loved dearly.” So, not Adolin, Renarin or Navani.

 

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Devisor
7 years ago

Can’t wait for Urithiru to come alive when those gemstones get infused. I bet  the patterns Shallan see in the hallways will all light up!

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7 years ago

@21, Elle: I had the same thought about cloud->Odium and blue->Honor, but Shallan did specify that the later was a traditional representation of Honor, so I took her word for it–though I suppose it’s possible the symbololgy has been warped over the centuries. It also might mean that the outstretched arms are not to embrace, but to seize with intent to wrest away. Then again, my first thought was of the Ishar endpaper, so fat lot I know :-\.

@72 Beren: Well said!

As for the shipping, I would be perfectly happy to see everyone stay single or die tragically leaving behind an unfinished romance, but I do like Adolin and Shallan together better than Kaladin and Shallan. For all that they shared during the Chasm Adventure, they both have unrealistic ideals of each other, and I think they could be sickeningly co-dependant together. I get that some people like the soul-bonded, they-are-mu-everything romance, but it’s always been repugnant to me. I probably wouldn’t object if both of them moved past their current and rather idealized views of each other, though. And I am certain that however these characters end up, it will be narratively appropriate and well-written. I have faith in the author.

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7 years ago

Second week in a row with no Kaladin … :(
What we do have, however … oh boy.

Soooooo does that mean that those (myself included) who think that young Blackthorn did not kill the boy in the Rift were right? “It remembers your oath, the Stormfather sent. It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others.” I mean, if he had killed a child in cold blood, why would the dead spren hate him LESS for it, and what about the oath the Stormfather is speaking of? Am I forgetting something?
On the other note, having the possibility to include others in the visions might prove real handy, indeed.

I absolutely loved Pattern’s worry about Shallan  doing something stupid without him being there to see it. And I am so glad Shallan was sensible and waited for backup. Also, it was so good to see Bridge Four again and how they have taken Renarin in as one of theirs, also, how good relationship they seem to have with Adolin, even though he’s not part of the crew.

For all those mentioning the Aether of Night, I add my voice to yours, these tar-like figures appearing like that instantly reminded me of the ones over there. Another thing I agree with what many others have already mentioned, the tree-lady must be Cultivation and I wondered if the third one could be Odium as there are/were three shards on Roshar. I took Shallan’s identification of Honor at face-value, though I wondered about the third man as blue seems so often to be connected to Honor. May-be they are actually in reverse as suggested.

Escalante @37, For all the guessing we do and share on this site, we never come close to the awesome stuff Sanderson creates – couldn’t agree more :), as do I agree with Beren @72.

Totally agree with noblehunter @88 about iguacufalls’s comment @87

Melbu Frahma @23; I was waiting for the chapters to appear and then discovered them half an hour before the time I knew they would go up. I was confused and wondered if they have changed anything, but only after reading your comment I realized that it was me who was in a “new time zone” now.

I’m sure I have forgotten something I definitely wanted to add, as always, but oh, well …

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7 years ago

And Anthony Pero , I think you just convinced me.

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hawkido
7 years ago

@94 Shallan will be with Adolin.  This I predict will happen.  Veil however will be sleeping with Kaladin. Radient will be sleeping with Lyn.  And Shallan when she does recombine her personalities will have some explaining to do.  But until then she will figure out how to maintain multiple images of herself for the different romances, so they can all meet and have dinner together with Kaladin, Lyn, and Adolin, maybe even make them corporeal, just as the claws on the midnight things were of substance.

Better than the whole tv trope “I’m Bill.  Let me go get Pete”, “Hi, I’m Pete, oh you want to talk to Bill, one sec, I’ll go get him” routine.  She can be Shallan and have Bill and Pete meet all at the same time in front of her.

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7 years ago

These two Shallan chapters justified my faith in Brandon and where things had been going to this point. Clearly, he knows Shallan and what he’s doing with her. It actually brought me to tears! 

“She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.”

 

Her ferocity and determination wavered; her commitment began to seep away.

So she lied. She insisted that she wasn’t afraid. She was committed. She’d always been that way. She would continue that way forever.

Power could be an illusion of perception. Even within yourself.”

Powerful!

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

– You make all the right arguments for Dalinar, especially if we simply have to wait for him to go to Shadesmar. 

However, Jasnah has tasted spicy food – and thus the reason she could write that it cannot be described to you (people probably tried but since she likes to discover the truth for herself she “tasted it for [her]self”. I don’t think that Jasnah would describe herself as a poet or even a philospher as she only speaks truths…not philosophy.

The one thing against her is the “smart” part. You’re right, that is very hard to hear her say. 

 

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7 years ago

Yeah, that pillar–with massive gemstones–just screams “Main Power Battery 01”

Also makes sense that this unmade spren (unspren?) can only be “sensed” by its opposing KR surgebearing orders–Truthwatchers and Lightweavers. Nice touch.

Dalinar wasn’t the first to ask about dead blades–Kaladin asked in an earlier chapter, to get much the same response. In any case, as he no longer has OB, I sincerely doubt he’ll be able to reawaken it. That OB seems to react to the oaths sworn (prior to bonding the SF) is probably a powerful clue as to how to reawaken dead blades.

Shallan’s playful “sword lessons” show that she’s still very much engaged with Adolin. She may have some personal/personality issues to work out though; but Adolin seems the type to stick with her. He knows he’s signed up for crazy.

Renarin’s shardplate is VERY interesting. The popular theory for shardplate is that it’s coalesced “minor” spren associated with the order–windspren, creationspren, etc. So is he able to touch it without screaming since unlike Blades, these are ‘dead’ non-sentient spren? Implications are curious.
This also tracks with Kaladin picking up and using the helmet in the Duel in WoR.

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Firemyst
7 years ago

So, we see the ‘generator’ of Urithiru.  I figured the strata had something to do with powering the Tower, kinda like wiring.  Now to find out how all those gemstones get infused……

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LiftEatDalinarsDinner!
7 years ago

Yay! New chapters! I Kaladin, Adolin, Dailnar, Shalla but no Lift and no Szeth/Nightblood :(. Can’t wait untill I get my hands on the proper book. Only two weeks left…   

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Hmsawesome
7 years ago

Haven’t really been a part of many discussions and my job doesn’t give me much time, but I don’t get all the speculation about the epigraphs. It seems to be pretty clearly Jasnah, an avowed heretic who has traveled between worlds. The author is also clearly Vorin, as the “read, or listen” shows – depending on whether the audience is male or female, they would either be reading or have the reading read to them. 

I don’t see how it isn’t Jasnah

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7 years ago

I’m pretty convinced it is Dalinar and you lay the case out pretty well. The things that seem to disqualify him (e.g. seeing into shadesmar) are things that could reasonably still be revealed later in the book either in flashback or new events.

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stormblessaway
7 years ago

The innocent among the guilty story is a different variation of the trolley problem in classic philosophy. How do you choose who dies (or is punished) when you might condemn an innocent? But Dalinar already has the key, “…let each instance be judged differently, depending on circumstances.” There is a time for the peacemaker, and a time for the warrior. A time for the conqueror and a time for the philosopher. Remember back to the vision where Dalinar met Nohadon (which just happens to be referenced… hmmm…)? It wasn’t yet time for the book, it was time for stability through more aggressive means. So how do you know what to do with the conundrum? Do everything you can to learn the circumstances, judge it by itself, and accept responsibility for your actions, whatever the decision. Dalinar is forced with these decisions often, and at the end of WOR was finally feeling at peace with them. I think with the sliver of honor that is the Stormfather to help and guide, he’ll figure it out and open another ideal

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 97: I don’t think Radiant is a very lustful / relationship-y personage. That’s not my only  objection to this theory (joke?), but it is the most heartfelt.

 

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7 years ago

HMSawesome @103: Look at Anthony Pero .  He lays out a compelling case for Dalinar.  It’s not ironclad, but it’s a pretty good argument (that I happen to agree with).

It could still turn out to be Jasnah or somebody else, but in the “Dalinar vs. the field” bet, I’m currently taking Dalinar (and have been for a while now).

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7 years ago

It interests me how people want the author of in-world Oathbringer to be Vasher, who it cannot possibly be. Yes, he might consider himself a monster, and yes, he killed someone he loved, but nobody is smarter than Vasher, literally, in the entire Cosmere canon, and he knows it. Also the voice is nothing like Vasher’s, and he’s famous for not being articulate. Read Warbreaker.

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7 years ago

Well, we’ve had a bit of an avalanche I’d say. Shallan and Adolin may be doomed by her refusal to let him see Vail. This makes me sad. She is also still very much not “together” as all the various Shallans show.

As much as a I love the action in the Shallan chapters I love the introspection and thought in the Dalinar chapter. These are real issues all of us face during our lives. Sure, few of us will make life ending choices for others (though some make that choice for themselves), but we are all given moral choices. Did you cheat on the test, drink and drive, tell a lie to avoid punishment? Did you then pretend you never have?

Can you really change and leave the past behind? Even if you do change will others ever believe it or more importantly, do they to forgive you? Both T and Dalinar have a lot of innocent blood on their hands. That will not change even if they do.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

KalGal@99:

I remembered that she had tasted spicy food, but the point is that it isn’t an analogy that a Vorin woman would use in a book presumably written to other Vorin women. They, being more experienced at the arguments necessary to make while stating your positions in a book, would use a gender neutral analogy instead. They wouldn’t make the mistake of making an argument that excluded half of their audience, or all of their audience, depending on how you look at it. But a man, unexperienced with this form of communication? They are most likely going to make the argument that is most convincing to themselves, being unfamiliar with rhetoric and logic in debate.

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7 years ago

@82: I think Brandon can write various characters within his series which fall on various squares of the morality scale. I do not read him as promoting one philosophy over the other, but as him writing two characters who’s views on the matter may differ, none of which may be his own.

And yes, there is a rational where Dalinar agrees to hang Adolin though it isn’t the most likely path for his character to take. Characters are moving pieces, they aren’t static. Right now Dalinar asks himself if he is a hypocrite and he wonders about his moral scale.

For others because the thread of comments is getting too long so I can’t respond to everyone, but I read everyone who’s responded to one of my posts, here are few additional thoughts.

On Shipping: I am pleased to see so many respondents still thinking Adolin/Shallan have a shot. I’ll admit I moved into this book thinking they were goner as the opposition towards their relationship and the support towards the alternative has always been overwhelming.

On my part, I do think Shallan’s refusal to reveal herself to Adolin may end up dooming their relationship. So while it is true she may come to another conclusion, later on, her repulsion towards the idea of perhaps telling him about Veil was…. kind of a massive obstacle especially since I do not personally understand what is so horrific in having Adolin find out about her.

I do not bother myself much with the beta readers having voted on a particular plot point and they turning out (for the majority) being wrong. We do not know which story elements the beta readers were discussing with Brandon and I can easily think of several where the fandom may have been divided which aren’t related to shipping. It could have been related to Kaladin’s homecoming, Adolin turning evil or into Odium’s champion, Dalinar’s boon/curse, Renarin’s visions… all of these are story elements which have polarized discussions. Also, many beta readers were casual readers, so they wouldn’t have benefit from the WoB nor the book related discussion: they may have thought some discarded ideas were still going strong.

Besides, even if it were related to shipping, there is no way to know how the majority of the beta readers would have voted with respect to it. Currently, on this media, it seems many readers are preferring Adolin/Shallan, but on other medias it is the complete opposite. Thus, how would the group of beta readers voted on this plot element? I say it could have easily gone both ways, in fact, I would argue it is more likely they would have voted for Kaladin/Shallan because they have always been the leading ship.

On Bridge 4 and Renarin: It was great to see Renarin belong somewhere. My initial was overwhelmingly positive. My second reaction was to note how this excludes Adolin, how within those scenes, he’s the one whom doesn’t belong. Bridge 4 take his order, but they made clear he was not one of them. Shallan is his girlfriend, but today she drew the line and there too, he does not belong.

It made me sad and I wondered if this was something Brandon would expand on or not. Seeing how Adolin is a background character, I’d say probably not, but it would have a nice story arc for his character.

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7 years ago

I don’t get why people think that refusing to let Adolin see Veil means that they are doomed. Is it a threat to the relationship? Yes, but I don’t think it necessarily means that she won’t eventually reveal herself to him. It would be completely out of character for her to go from repressing her own past to revealing her deepest vulnerabilities to someone who she meant a few months ago, even if it is someone she likes and betrothed to. Obviously, she will have to come to terms with it eventually, if the relationship is going to work out, but it makes perfect sense to me that she would be hesitant and even afraid to do so at this point. 

I’m not predicting anything or thinking it will be easy, without even getting into the secrets that Adolin is hiding, but I don’t think it’s guaranteed not to work out in the long run.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@11:

My second reaction was to note how this excludes Adolin, how within those scenes, he’s the one whom doesn’t belong. Bridge 4 take his order, but they made clear he was not one of them. Shallan is his girlfriend, but today she drew the line and there too, he does not belong.

He’s not only their commanding officer, he’s their mission. He’s never going to belong with them, and he shouldn’t, any more than Dalinar. I doubt he feels excluded. They like him just fine, and he likes them just fine. There have been tons of scenes between Adolin and bridge four that illustrates how easily Adolin gets along with everyone simply because he is relatively unassuming for a Very Important Person, and that he’s is pretty Lazze Faire in relationships. that makes him easy to deal with for subordinates. In other words, he doesn’t need from them what they give to Renarin, and he’s unlikely to begrudge it to Renarin. He may be concerned with the appropriateness of it at some point, as someday Renarin may need to lead these men. But he seems mostly happy that Renarin has found a place to belong.

Adolin has always reminded me of someone like Brett Favre. The quarterback who still has a lot of the foibles of other really popular and wealthy, or entitled people, but you don’t mind as much, because he isn’t quite as self-absorbed, which he exhibits by being genuinely interested in other people, even people who are part of a lesser social circle.

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

I am going to try this again!  Just wrote a long comment and then it did not update for some reason.  Guess that is what I get for not saving it into a writing program first as I have been doing since I first started commenting.

I have spent most of October not commenting.  I felt that most of the chapters were filler writing, (No disrespect to BS).  I just was not interested in commenting on a lot of what was written.

 
We know that every chapter can not be deep, dramatic and full of ‘edge of your seat’ reading; like today was. :)
I have also really been hoping that Jasnah and Wit would finally land somewhere that we could read about them, but alas, it was not to be…

I want to say this again,  back in the beginnings of the book when Shallan was describing the strata in such detail some of us felt that played a  significant part in the story line because of the amount of detail the writer gave to it.  It is a recurring theme that he writes about.

I have to add again that I feel there is something major that plays into the way the strata is, how the rooms are, all the circulation vents described.  I also believe that the pillar with the gems is some kind of a mechanism or engine that will sync the city and the Oathgates.  
For some reason in my mind’s eye, I see a device that reminds me of an orrery.  Don’t know why, but that is what I visualize in my mind.
And speaking of descriptions, “Soon they were alone with the timeless, patient darkness.”  Brandon Sanderson makes the darkness a very sentient and dangerous seeming entity.  Gotta love that!

Shallan, what can I say that hasn’t been said?  We all experience duality, and sometimes plurality, I believe.  When you talk to yourself, “who” are you talking to?  Are you the same person you were when you were  at 20, 30, or even the person you were last year?  We grow, we learn, we are becoming by the things that we experience in life.  

Shallan keeps creating new personalities, micro-personalities, I think of them as being; and she creates and changes them as often (depending on the situation) as some people change clothes.  My personal take is that Shallan is the perfect daughter, Radiant is her egotistical persona, and Veil is who she is at her core, well at least today.  Just my personal opinion for what its worth.  

I sometimes get irritated with the head games she plays with herself, but all in all she is a very complex person and in many ways she is fearless.  

Damn Amaram!  As much as I hate to agree with him, he is right in what he said to Dalinar!  Grrr!  We all have been a hypocrite at some time or other in life and probably will be again.  Truth is when the words and the deeds are the same.  You know anyone that lives like that, 100% of time?  Me neither!

It was so good to see Bridge Four peoples again!  Cool to see that Lyn had joined them too.  

Ah, Romance!  Truthfully, and perhaps this is due to my mature age of almost 67 years, but why is this such a big deal right now?  I say learn, grow, survive and try romance when you are in your 30 something years.  Yes, it is a book and romance sells, and of course, in real life people get caught up in lust/love relationships all the time when they are young and most of them do not work out.  I understand the need for a little romance to make most stories interesting but as far as I am concerned, this story hurtles along at an amazing pace and the romance aspect slows the story line down.  

Finally at least for now, back to the identity of the Preface writer.  I think it might be Taravangian, or Dalinar, or Wit or Jasnah.  :)
And as a parting comment,  Today as I finished reading the chapters, I was actually shaking!    

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7 years ago

@50 Gepeto
I understand your point a bit better now, but I think this situation can go into so many different directions I figure we’re going to have to read it in the book.

@94 sistertotherain
Yeah, I’m not actually suggesting they’re all worshipping Odium (though they kind of are, with the Thrill and all), but symbolism can change very easily. We just have to look at how faiths in our world have taken pagan symbols and holidays and assigned new meanings to them. It seems very possible that they saw a representation of Odium as a shiny cloud, and were like ‘well, highstorms bring stormlight, and stormlight is nice, so this must be a representation of the Almighty (since they mix him up with the Stormfather and Jezrien), which will be fun for Vorinism if this theory turns out to be true.

I think most people thought of Ishar’s painting first. :) It’s very distinctive. But since the other painting clearly isn’t Shallash (and the Vedel picture looks very different as well), Honor and Cultivation seem like a good second opinion.

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7 years ago

Gepeto @44: Was does Dalinar’s comment about possibly revising a dead spren Shardblade (and the Stormfather’s comment that he did not think – emphasis added – such revival was possible) put a nail into the theory that Adolin would revise his Shardblade.  All it means is that Dalinar expressed this thought in text before Adolin.  For all we know, Adolin could have been thinking of this since he first learned that Shallan could summon her own Shardblade and it was her spren that formed into the Shardblade.  One has nothing to do with the other.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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7 years ago

@100 hammerlock:  minor (but possibly important) correction – truthwatchers and lightweavers are not opposing orders – they are situated next to each other in the double-eye and the surge of illumination is shared between those two orders.

That’s probably a big clue with what is going on right there – it could be part of why Renarin and Shallan could feel the “wrongness” in Uruthiru, but Dalinar could not.

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7 years ago

@63, how about this one:

“You 4 all get one last chance to be honest. If you claim to be innocent and nobody or only 1 other agrees with you, you die. If 2 or more others agree you’re innocent, you go free. If you plead guilty yourself and at least one other person agrees with who you say is innocent, you live, branded as a dangerous slave. Plead guilty and nobody agrees with you who’s innocent, you die. “

All 4 claim innocent, all 4 die. Innocent pleads guilty out of fear, other 3 persist, 3 die, 1 slaved because 1 of the other 3 agreed on who’s innocent. 1 guilty takes the plea, all others claim innocent, the innocent man still dies because only one supported him, and we can’t be sure the plea guy wasn’t lying to save his friend. 2 claim innocence, 2 plea, disagree on who’s innocent but pick people who claimed innocence, 2 slaves and 2 dead, and the liars have two murders on their souls, one slave and one dead. If same as before but the 2 pleas agree on someone who claimed innocence, one goes free, 2 slaves, and the liar dies. If everybody tells the truth, one goes free and 3 slaves, nobody dies. If everyone pleads guilty, it depends on who they say is innocent: if everyone chooses randomly, odds are 5/9 for each person that at least one of the other 3 chooses the same and you both become slaves (because whoever you pick can’t pick himself, because this is the all guilty case); 4/9 you die. 

Regardless of the outcome, aside from total honesty, they all had a chance to save the real innocent one, and whoever lied has the souls of the executed added to their souls for Final Judgment, which may be very soon. 

How does that sound for incentive to be honest and getting the best chance of justice? 

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7 years ago

@44 Gepeto
Oathbringer hates Dalinar. It just hates him less than it hates others. And Adolin definitely respects his blade more than Dalinar does (that we see in the story), so Adolin might only be severely disliked by his blade, which is nothing, really.

@116 AndrewHB
I think the Stormfather actually says ‘I know of no way’, instead of ‘I don’t think it’s possible’ which makes it very likely that someone will figure out a way at some point during the story, if we follow the common tropes of literature. :)

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7 years ago

I can picture Rock’s argument with Lopen:

“Nah, goncho, I’m the weird one!”

“Airsick lowlander, I eat shells.  And enjoy them!  I am far stranger than you.” 

*fisticuffs*

 

I liked the camaraderie between B4, and how Renarin just has a place among them no different from Rock or Lopen.  He’s the group nerd, and he found the one group willing to accept that, and is now comfortable with himself because of that acceptance. 

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Capo
7 years ago

I’m really going to miss the chapter by chapter comments section. I’m also convinced after all these weeks that Gepeto is Maxal.

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7 years ago

@117 Didn’t mean to infer that TW and LW were opposed; I meant opposing orders in that they use the opposing surge to the “voidbinding” surge that the spren uses, since it appears to be using some messed up version of illusion that has some substance to it/condensed “smoke”

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7 years ago

@118 Lightbringer

How about hiring a detective?  Honestly, if you know three out of four are guilty, it’s pretty simple to sit down with all four and offer a plea deal to the first murderer to come forward and finger the other two.  The entire idea of needing to kill one innocent man to catch three murderers is only valid if your police force is completely incompetent. 

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@@@@@ 114 Spiritwalker: Regarding Wit and Jasnah showing up, many people have expressed a desire to see them (and I do to), but I had a thought as to why they haven’t. My guess is that they are back in the physical realm now, but – judging by the cover- they are likely in Kohlinar or nearby. As such, they are in one of the areas that have been in “spanreed blackout” and although they may be actively doing things, the current PoV characters will have no way of knowing (and I don’t think any tertiary characters get PoV’s in part one according to the outline that was released). So… hopefully interludes (less likely) or part 2 (more likely)? Maybe Kaladin will run into them in his part 1 finale?

@@@@@ 111 and 113: I’d say Adolin is in an interesting situation where he fits in easily and gets along with people readily; he gets along well with soldiers and light-eyes (current issues not withstanding, he was previously adept at handling higher society), but at the same time, he is currently somewhat isolated from each of his deepest connections in a major way. Not that he has no contact, but there is a deep part of their experiences that he has no place in. I don’t think that is inherently bad or weird – my wife is isolated from my work experience, but we just don’t have a perspective in the book currently to see what Adolin’s focus is. We only see the other major characters’ things that Adolin isn’t fully part of. Anyway, the long and short of it is…. I like Adolin. He’s a fun character. But, he is a side character so we only get bits of what’s happening with him. What makes it extra frustrating is that he is right on the edge in that he has some PoV’s, and he is a intertwined with two (currently, sometimes all three) of the primary characters so he gets a lot of screen time without actually having his own PoV. So he may appear more isolated or adrift than he actually is.

 

Finally, in the preface debate – I still lean toward an ancient writer who bears striking similarities to Dalinar. My second choice is Dalinar himself. Third, Jasnah. But there are many intriguing options – especially how it has been written to seem to apply to so many characters (initially it pointed to Jasnah, then it felt a bit more like Shallan, now more like Dalinar). Some of the second two are with how the phrases meshed so well with the chapters – the spice comment right after Shallan had spicy food, the killed someone who loved me right around flashbacks of Evi .  But that fact alone makes me think the whole thing is a set-up and the author is long-ago dead.

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7 years ago

re 121 Capo: after we all read the book everyone will jump on 17thShard and go crazy on commenting.

It occurs to me that one person who will be happy is Navani. She has been wondering and working on what powers the city since they showed up. Now that the gems are exposed the city should light up during the next storm.

So, who’s going to go looking down that next tunnel with me?

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Garrett
7 years ago

So the unmade can bond with humans?

I’m pretty sure there are nine unmade, right? I find it interesting that Odium’s champion has nine shadows. Maybe the champion needs to bond with all of the unmade.  

I loved Dalinar’s talk with Taravangian, and it really got me thinking on the nature of right and wrong and how it relates to Taravangian’s blessing and curse. Taravangian asked for the capacity to handle the coming events and it’s easy to assume that the blessing was his days of increased intelligence but logic can be a trap sometimes. Like art, knowing what’s right is oftentimes more about what you feel rather than what think. 

Taravangian is blessed and cursed with days of unfeeling logic and unthinking emotion. So which is which?

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7 years ago

I was excited to see Dalinar using his adhesion ability to climb the wall with a chair. Aside from Shallan’s illusions, we’ve not seen much surgebinding in these early chapters. I am dying to see what people can do. Is Renarin practicing illumination, is Shallan practicing soulcasting, is Dalinar practicing tension (and what is that exactly)? What can Malata do as a Dustbringer and Bridge Four as squires? Can they combine their surges to do things we’ve never thought of, like the 3D map? Eagerly awaiting some awesome magical action….

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7 years ago

The “9 shadows” champion suggests the tantalizing notion that at the series’ culmination, we may see a Rosharan Mistborn–a KR that has bound one of each spren.

Might be a bit far-fetched (if even possible) but WoB doesn’t leave out the possibility of multi-spren bonds.

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Brick
7 years ago

For the epigraph, would Eshonai refer to herself as having “humanity”, as in “Finally, I will confess my humanity…”? I’m thinking it could still be Shallan, and the spicy food was something she tasted just recently, thanks to Adolin. 

And @127 (Artemis), your Dustbringer comment made me wonder if a Dustbringer could also reverse the process of something turning to dust… like an entire library. That would be quite nice, but probably too much free info for the characters in the book. 

@Tor in general — nested comments seem like a great idea, considering all the @s in these comments and the effort one has to make to scroll back and forth. 

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7 years ago

Artemis@127, I doubt that Dalinar can use Tension yet. He’s only spoken two of the Oaths. If he’s like Kaladin, he’ll gain more abilities as he speaks more.

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Srujan
7 years ago

@36 @42 I though it was Hoid too. Hoid is a worldhopper, and if the reference of passing between realms means that, then this is likely Hoid. Also, “Listen to the words of a fool”.

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7 years ago

@126 I think it was wetlander who I first heard suggest it (not sure I’m articulating it the way she did though), but there’s a chance that Taravangian is overlooking the value of the days when he has a balance of intelligence and empathy. Obviously, the Nightwatcher gave him the ability to come up with the Diagram, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it was the boon, or the entirety of the boon. If Nohadon is “correct”, then taking each situation as it comes is a more just and effective way to rule, and (possibly) to combat Odium.

Not sure I’m being that articulate…

Scath
Scath
7 years ago

@130, actually my theory is that each order starts or is better at one surge, and later learns the other. Kaladin learned adhesion first, Shallan illumination (when she was younger), Lift abrasion, Jasnah transformation, and Renarin regrowth. So Dalinar is the only one so far I feel has broken that theory, so he may be using tension already unconsciously. that or my theory is incorrect. But if it is, when we see skybreakers they should use gravitation first, dustbringers division, edgedancers abrasion, truthwatchers progression, lightweavers illumination, elsecallers transformation, willshapers transportation, stonewards cohension, bondsmiths tension, and windrunners adhension. 

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7 years ago

@133 Interesting theory. Perhaps the fact that he has been attracting Radiants and is able to join with Shallan is a version of tension (i.e. holding things together). 

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7 years ago

I don’t know if this possibility has been considered, but what if the epigraphs are written by Ishar?  We know that some men could conceivably consider him to be a monster, especially if he is the god-king in Tukar.

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7 years ago

One 

Have we learned all the names of the Unmade yet? Or what they do? I have a theory that the 9 shadows of Odium correspond to 9 of the 10 Radient Orders; Odium takes the place of the Bondsmith 10th because he is so jealous of his power that he’d never delegate the choosing of his Champion to a mere Splinter, even if it’s a Splinter of himself. That raises interesting questions. Is the Unmade who sends the Death Rattles the corrupted version of whatever kind of Spren Glys is? Is the one that governs the Thrill the bizzaro version of an Honorspren? There are other implications that tie in to another theory I had in an earlier Oathbringer thread but it slips my mind at the moment.

Two

If Shallan all of a sudden started sharing her deepest secrets with Adolin at this point in the narrative it would feel unearned, at least to me. At this point she doesn’t even really know herself yet, her newest truth chafes, the facets of Shallan have not yet merged. There is still hope for Shallan/Adolin. I cannot support Kal/Shallan because Adolin is not an asshole and Kal would feel like he betrayed a friend which might screw his Oaths. Adolin would have to die to make Kal/Shallan work for me, but that’s my opinion only.

Three

Anyone think King T is talking too much, showing his hand to the monarch he thinks Dalinar should be? For a minute I thought he was going to spill the beans on the existence of the Diagram. We all know that’s the only God Taravangian prays to now. His solution to the problem only highlights the goal of the Diagram, survival of the human race at any cost.

Four

I’m definitely on board with the Urithiru Generator. Sounds reasonable.

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Ray Irwin
7 years ago

So.  What will happen once they infuse that cental tower with stormlight?  Will that run the entire tower?

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BekahJennings
7 years ago

I listened to these books on audible (mom of 6 kids— laundry is so much better with Brandon Sanderson),  which means sometimes I don’t recognize a word in text form that I’ve only heard before…And that it’s hard to go back and reference something from previous books… Can someone point me to a chapter  about the “unmade?“ I don’t remember them and I want to go back and listen to what they are. Also, “Midnight Mother”/“Re-Shepir”?  I feel like I’m the only person who just saw these characters for the first time. 

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Jimbo
7 years ago

@BekahJennings

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Unmade

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Re-Shephir

Whenever I come across something I don’t recall, I go to the coppermind wiki. Careful of spoilers if you’ve not read all of Sanderson’s Cosmere stuff.

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7 years ago

@138 BekahJennings
Almost all the information about the Unmade is in  the epigraphs (or from interviews), in the Death Rattles, in Jasnah’s research, and in the Diagram. Some (not all) examples:

“Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!”
WoK, chapter 58 epigraph

“Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.”
WoK, chapter 45 epigraph

“The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time…”
WoR, chapter 81 epigraph

Then during Taravangian’s interlude he talks about the Unmade that causes the Thrill, Nergaoul, and the Unmade that causes the Death Rattles, Moelach.

So it’s very understandable that you missed them, since they are not exactly in the chapters themselves. Have you ever checked the Coppermind website? It’s very comprehensive and they always reference where the information comes from.

EDIT: whoops, someone else was faster.

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BekahJennings
7 years ago

@139: Thank you so much! That will be so helpful!

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7 years ago

Is anyone reminded of that chapel in Elantris? The pool is obviously a Shardpool.

Wow. Now that we’re all begging for another Dalinar chapter we will go back to Kaladin. Just wait.

I kind of hope we get the highstorm visions from the POV of Queen Fen, though I trust it will be awesome anyhow.

Also, does anyone else think Renarin as a Truthwatcher has the ability to restore those lost books?

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7 years ago

Seems like there are some interesting parallels between Shallan crafting Radiant and Veil and Wayne adopting personas in Mistborn Era 2. Both have skeletons in their closet. Mistborn 2 spoiler but Wayne has had longer to deal with it. He still has issues, like his hand shaking when holding a gun, but it makes sense that he would be further along than Shallan. It gives me hope that Shallan will eventually figure this out and be able to gain more acceptance of who she is. I don’t think that means that she’ll stop lying, even to herself (because who is completely honest with themselves?) just do it less often maybe and in a way that doesn’t cause her the angst it does in this chapter.

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7 years ago

Carl @@@@@ 130. Kaladin was able to use adhesion and gravitation after the second ideal, which is where Dalinar is now (the main KR ideal + one order-specific oath). I don’t think he knew about gravitation until he saw Szeth use it, but once he practiced running up walls in the chasm, he eventually got it. I think Dalinar could use tension now, but maybe he doesn’t know about it without having a guide. I doubt the stormfather is very forthcoming about these things. Maybe the in-world Words of Radiance book about info about the surges.

Brick @@@@@ 129. Instead of dustbringers reversing the decay process, maybe Renarin could do it with regrowth? Or a combination of the two? It sure would be nice to have the books back (for us and them!)

Scath @@@@@ 133. It is an interesting theory, though I would guess that gravitation would be the Windrunner’s primary surge, with the open sky/wind connection. It seems to be Kaladin’s favorite ability, he says he feels pure joy when using it. This would put adhesion as the Bondsmith’s primary surge, which also makes sense with them binding things together. This throws off Skybreakers, which will probably cascade through all the others…. either way, it’s hard to make it fit perfectly but It will be interesting to keep in mind as we meet more surgebinders.

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David T
7 years ago

Could the author of the Oathbringer epigraphs be the Radiant who originally bonded Oathbringer? The book could have been written after the Recreance, when the Radiants were considered monsters, and the murder he or she is speaking of is killing of their spren? 

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Shawn
7 years ago

The un made remind me of aether of night

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BigJoe
7 years ago

Could Oathbringer be Taravangian’s book? Writing the Diagram could definitely have given him a realm-traveling experience. Granted, the author seems to remember the experience somewhat clearly….

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7 years ago

@145 That’s a great point. It certainly seems like a possibility, though it would be interesting to wonder why this individual was shouldering so much of the blame, when hundreds of other Radiants did the same thing.

 

The other issue is the mention of ardents. I’m not up-to-date enough of Vorinism to know whether ardents would have existed within the lifetime of such a Radiant, but someone else pointed out previously that their existence is a limiting factor on how far back we can look for an author.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 56 yesssss definitely. That’s a strong and important point. Really interesting to wonder if Dalinar would have acted the same as Amaram all those years ago; but it is very clear that now he would NOT. It would be really fascinating to see some chapters from Amaram’s perspective, but I suppose that would destroy all the suspense and uncertainty concerning him. Regardless, I’d agree he clearly just can’t come to terms with his own darkness, and so he seeks to liken himself to Dalinar because there ARE similarities, and he sees in Dalinar perhaps facets of the man he––Amaram––could become.

Basically Dalinar just needs to keep on as he’s keeping on, and stay positive. That’s what I’d say at least. He has all the right values and questions right now, and he just needs to choose his course as his conscience guides him. Interesting to see what new struggles or questions will present themselves.

It would be really great to have some Taravangian chapters as well! THough I suppose once again that would destroy some (a lot) of the suspense. Those bits with Dalinar were amazing

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7 years ago

@65 yeah same thoughts on Shallan soulcasting and Renarin “seeing”. I’d love it if we got a bit more focus on our main characters actually interacting, learning WHAT they can do etc. . . . especially Renarin. Maybe even a storyline from his perspective.

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7 years ago

@122 hammerlock – apologies – I misread your first comment (and belated congrats on getting the hunny, btw!) – and I think your theory makes a lot of sense.   I wonder: could a radiant without the illumination surge fight (and win) against this Unmade?  What would be the likely outcome if they attempted it?  I have so many questions arising from the third chapter alone this week.

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7 years ago

@68. She might revert  to being a horneater princess. 

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7 years ago

@149 We did get a short scene from Amaram’s POV at the end of WoR. Unlike Taravangian, who I think believes he is doing wrong for the right reasons, I think Amaram is a true believer. I don’t believe he has any doubts, which I find scarier (though the “brilliance” and ruthlessness of the diagram balances it out.)

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7 years ago

@121 Capo: Heh, a few weeks ago I was thinking about posting something along the lines of, “Hey, Maxal, you’re Gepeto, right?” on the Seventeenth Shard. But then I figured it would sound weird or something, so I never ended up doing so.

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7 years ago

Are the illustrations of the 4 Heralds that Tor released last week supposed to be the same images that Shallan and the others see in the chamber they enter when following the Unmade?

Any theories as to what Shallan meant when she said “The pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome.” – Chapter 29?

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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7 years ago

@113: I didn’t meant to say Adolin feels excluded, but my perspective is he seems rather on his own. Every one needs friends, closed ones, people to rely onto, even commanding officers. I doesn’t seem as if Adolin’s got any. He had Renarin, but now Renarin has moved out. He thinks he has Shallan, but Shallan isn’t really Shallan. It made me sad for him though the character likely never even noticed it was the case. Just an observation on my part.

@114: I like to have romance within my books. It does not need to be a major arc, but I like when there is some of it. I like when it is well done and when it presents pairings which are interesting to read.

@115: I didn’t mean to say my interpretation was the only way the story could swing, just it was something I thought I could see happening. Dalinar has been asking a lot of philosophical questions lately, I wondered how long it would be before he is forced to put one into action.

@116: Oh, it doesn’t bar it, it’s just reviving a dead Blade is supposed to be such a unique impossible event I felt hearing Oathbringer responds positively to Dalinar must mean something. It is the first of those Blades we see not reacting completely negatively to a Radiant, so I thought it meant something and since I do not believe we are going to see multiple Blade revivals, if it turns out being Oathbringer, then it may mean we aren’t going to see Adolin’s.

@119: We do not know if respecting it is enough.

@124: How would Adolin fit in was an interesting theme to explore for his character. The idea of one of them is left out of the entire “new world filled with Radiants” had potential, but as you say, Adolin is too much into the background for the idea to take roots. Still, I thought it would have made an interesting arc.

@136: I like your theory there are 8 other unmades. I didn’t mean to say Shallan ought to share everything with Adolin now, but my impression while reading her viewpoint is the idea of even thinking of doing it was repulsing her. It didn’t leave many doors open for her to change her mind about it. I think Mr T has a plan which has yet to unfold. 

On Renarin restoring the books: I have no idea if it is plausible for him to do so, but I rather like the idea.

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Capo
7 years ago

I can’t shake the idea that the epigraphs are by the Sunmaker.  We still don’t know his whole story, but we do know he was the owner of Oathbringer, and was largely responsible for ending the Hierarchy and splitting up the vorin church, so the lines about being a heretic fit. Maybe the person he feels guilty for killing was someone within the church itself?

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Ashmon
7 years ago

Love the book and am so excited to read this in full. There are just a couple things that really bug me and I can’t see how they work or came to be in any society. I’m hopeful Brandon has a good answer for these problems eventually as he has for other issues I’ve had in his past now. 

First off is the men not being able to read. That doesn’t make sense to me in any way, even if Brandon tries to beat us over the head with that fact every time someone sends a note or even reads an address on a curb. He goes to extreme lengths to explain that men can’t read but women can and they add extra stuff and interpretations to their writings. But it doesn’t make any sense. Everyone knows that information is power and men are in power these books. Reading is how intelligent people learn new things and gain new info. I can’t fathom in any way why men would choose to not read. If someone told me not to read, I’d be like, Ok. And then I would go figure it out. 

Also, it’s not _that_ hard to learn to read. I have a friend who learned pretty much by himself by watching TV and looking at books before he went to school. He’s above 160 IQ, so he’s an outlier, but there are outliers in Roshar too, I’m sure. 

Also, consider how reading and writing came into existence. Writing on cave walls turns into writing on tablets to papyrus to paper etc. How could a society evolve in such a way that would exclude men from doing it. I can’t imagine it in any scenario. 

In times of war, I can’t imagine a general waiting for a reading of important information. It’s too basic of a human endeavor to be limited to one gender doing it. 

Which leads me to my second issue I have with the books. The separation of food types for genders. How in the world would that evolve in any society? Can you imagine a mom making 2 separate dishes for a family just to satisfy gender rules? I can’t. If your mom is anything like mine, she said “eat it” no matter what it was. I can’t imagine her, or any mom for that matter, taking the time to make one spicy and one mild just for gender tradition. First off, a good chef always tastes food while they’re cooking it. Making 2 completely separate meals doesn’t make any sense. How did that evolve? 

Anyway, those were just a couple of things that didn’t make sense to me. I’m sure he’ll come up with a reason at some point, but I can’t see why at this point. 

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Justin K
7 years ago

I have a sneaking suspicion that the missing Interludes might provide insight into the questions being bandied about, such as the epigraph author.

I’m getting more and more confused about how spren are categorised with the supposed appearance of murals of the surgebinding spren. Is surgebinding native to bonded Roshar spren and pre-dates the Shards arrival? If not all spren are splinters of the Shards, then why would they care if their oaths were broken? 

dwcole
7 years ago

Man if this book doesn’t sell loads and loads and loads and win massive awards then I don’t know what is wrong with the world.  The fundamental truths Shallan is finding about war, about bravery (hint it is mostly a lie you tell yourself) and that we all have masks we put on and take off depending on who we are with (I like to call them Persona) just amazing.  He has surpassed almost every fantasy writer I have read.  Such great stuff!

Also my prediction next high storm those gems on the column are going to be infused (remember they went down a lot) and those lines we see running through the walls of the castle – the ones that look like blood veins are going to carry the stormlight throughout the castle and allow the castle to do I have no idea what but CAN NOT WAIT to find out.

@9 so you are a lawyer too – what type of law do you practice?

@20 remember “sometimes a hypocrite is someone about to change” Amaran isn’t changing so yes Dalinar can judge him.  Though I think Dalinar has potentially gone to far the other way sometimes you DO have to kill the village to save it but then I am “better dead than red” which I realize likely doesn’t describe many people here.

@34 I don’t think any of us show all of our selves to anyone even those we love, or even to ourselves.  This is I think more of the point here than giving cover to the breaking up of the union.

 

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Gingeriffic!
7 years ago

I am on board with the Urithiru power generator theory, especially with the odd rooms with slits (like the dome over the breakaway market) that could be used for lighting or the ventilation shaft that Dalinar peeked into that could be used for heating.

I had hoped prior to this week that, rather than a pillar with a bunch of gemstones, there was a massive gemheart from one of the Reshi Island Gods hanging below Urithiru that could somehow get infused to power the tower. How rad would that be?

Speaking of Urithiru’s technological mysteries, I think the glass panels on the walls in the upper room are some kind of fabrial that can hold a light woven map or image that doesn’t fade when the light Weaver is at a distance, like when Shallan’s map disappeared in the last set of chapters.

Once fully powered, I could envision Urithiru feeling pretty modern, if not futuristic, in some ways.

Big speculation time- with the Midnight Mother being a sort of opposite of lightweaving according to Shallan, it strengthens a theory I have that the Unmade are opposites of the Heralds and that somehow the more the good guys fight them the more powerful (or intelligent) they become.

This could explain the Recreance – perhaps the Knights Radiant discovered that their fighting was only playing into Odium’s Intent and was making his minions more powerful, so they decided that complete pacifism was the only way to counter Odium’s complete hatred.

Just a thought.

Can’t wait for the rest of the book in two weeks!

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Sharon
7 years ago

AHHH so excitedddd Oathbringer comes out in two weeks!!

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7 years ago

So someone’s probably already said it but Re-Shephir’s black fighters seem to echo the Aether of Night fighters. Which is kind of cool. 

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Axel
7 years ago

@71 Dryone If shallan breaks up with adolin I hope he will finally find in ReSephir a girl who is willing to commit to him. Adolin x ReSephir <3

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Mike
7 years ago

The writer of the epigraphs is the previous Oathbringer (The book), and last bondsmith (I swear we have been given a name, but I cannot find it). He is also the person who broke the oath and had the sword last (Oathbringer for which he titled his book). The beginning of 29 proves that the authors are not living. Whatever horrible murders he created in the past or misdeeds, they may be similar to Dalinar’s, but they are definitely not Dalinar. I also suspect that part of the reasons the Radiants broke their oaths is because there is some sort of duality between good an evil… a duality that has a cyclic nature. This interdependence is believed by both the Sons of Honor (Amaram’s group) and the Diagramists (Taravangian’s Group), and potentially the ghostbloods as well. Very drastic motives are used to support each groups goals, something I do not think is chance. This belief probably isn’t happenstance, but seeds of truth passed on over thousands of years, which is why the groups share it. I also suspect this man was who successfully turned the void bringer to parshmen (see comment 30 for chapters 13-15) and that the bondsmiths create and regulate bonds between realms with both humans and spren.

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7 years ago

Taravangian is pushing Dalinar towards war for unifying Roshar, given the obvious need to unify the planet in response to this Desolation. The question is how T is going to manipulate that situation. My guess is that he’ll attempt to assassinate Dalinar and briefly take over after a Dalinar makes some substantial progress in unifying Roshar , now that he’s close to him. 

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7 years ago

@158 Just saw someone post a WoB on 17thshard that responds partly to what you are complaining about. It said that women were restricted from using their safehand as a way to keep shardblades from them, and that they responded by taking literacy as a retaliation.

Either way, I don’t find it as unlikely as you do, especially in Alethkar where being a warrior is seen as the highest possible calling for a man.

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7 years ago

Gepeto @@@@@ 44  – where did you get the idea that there is a chasm forming between a Renarin and Adolin? The way I see it, the brothers are working together. And their bond is as stronger as ever.

So, Renarin has friends. great for him. He is the spare. He has more options. Adolin is the heir. He is a man apart. He is not supposed to have friends except an inner circle of a select few. If you look closely, Dalinar has no friends. 

Ever heard of the saying, it is lonely at the top?

So far, based on what we have been revealed in WoK, WoR And the chapters here at OB, Dalinar’s most important relationship has been with his brother Gavilar. They wete so close.

Renarin and Adolin are the same. They are very close. 

Real life example – the original Heir and Spare, Prince William and Prince Harry. It’s not only the tabloids which had said it, but well respected royal observers had noted how close the two princes are.

I don’t want to rain on your parade but I just had to put my two cents in. 

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Ashaman
7 years ago

@158

there is an in world book that describes what is feminine and masculine. This is supported by the church and came with all their backing and power at a time when the church WAS the power. (Think the Catholic empire back in the day) when the top power in your world not only supports this division but also tells you it is Gods will it can quickly become the cultural norm

Look at the gay marriage argument in the USA this is largely from the Christian denominations that were never in total control of the country but did set the moral norms and rules for most people based solely on stating it is God’s will

 

Also I seem to remember Shallan and Jasnah talking about the gender roles and stating that basically anything to be done with one hand is feminine whilst things that must be done with two are masculine. Writing is one of the first things I think of and with that being so stringently a female thing I can see it turning into a “I didn’t write anything, I can’t even read!” Type of culture to further distance ones self from seeming feminine

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7 years ago

@168 You made me remember that Adolin isn’t just the eventual heir, but that he is going to be Highprince at any moment, right? When Dalinar takes his new post as Highking of Urithiru, Adolin is going to become Highprince. 

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

@124 Whitespine:  Thanks!  The spanreed thing had slipped my my mind. Reading every week rather than being able to continue on in the book tends to shift focus and break the continuity for me.  Since we are getting chapters  and selected parts of the story it limits what we learn till we get the book.

On a different topic I was reading about the spheres that Gavilar had given to Eshonai and Szeth and had a brainstorm so I had to backtrack a bit.

I am going to refer back to the Prologue and then tie it in with today’s chapters.  Remember when Gavilar is talking to Eshonai?

“Now, now,” he said. “I’m going to help you, Eshonai. Did you know, I’ve discovered how to bring your gods back?”

No. She hummed to the Rhythm of the Terrors. No . . .

“My ancestors,” he said, holding up the fabrial, “first learned how to hold a spren inside a gemstone. And with a very special gemstone, you can hold even a god.”

“Your Majesty,” she said, daring to take his hand in hers. He couldn’t feel the rhythms. He didn’t know. “Please. We no longer worship those gods. We left them, abandoned them.”

“Ah, but this is for your good, and for ours.” He stood up. “We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours. Without them, we have no power. This world is trapped, Eshonai! Stuck in a dull, lifeless state of transition.” He looked toward the ceiling. “Unite them. I need a threat. Only danger will unite them.”

“What . . .” she said to Anxiety. “What are you saying?”

“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

So, I am thinking that perhaps the spren Gavilar referred to is Re-Shephir. After rereading that part of the prologue, I then reread this part in today’s chapter releases.

‘She drew upon the Stormlight within, and pushed herself farther into Re-Shephir’s essence. She couldn’t tell if it was actually happening—if she was pushing her physical body farther into the creature’s tar—or if this was all a representation of someplace else. A place beyond this room in the tower, beyond even Shadesmar.

The creature trembled, and Shallan finally saw the reason for its fear. It had been trapped. The event had happened recently in the spren’s reckoning, though Shallan had the impression that in fact centuries upon centuries had passed.

Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.’

Any thoughts?

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7 years ago

Andrew @155, re Shallan’s Ideal and pain, I read it as holding the Shardblade reminds her vividly of killing her parents, something she admitted as her Truth but has not yet come to grips with and which still pains her.

holmspren
7 years ago

Does anyone else enjoy reading the comments as much or more than the Chapters?  I will miss this when the actual book comes out.  Shout out to this brilliant cadre of Stormlight Archive fans!

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7 years ago

Men actually aren’t completely illiterate, they do use glyphs (although some don’t bother to learn them). Brandon might have modified old Japanese society to get Alethi writing rules. In classical Japan only men used Chinese characters, which unlike Alethi glyphs were considered “real writing”, while the syllabary was used by both genders (to communicate with each other, e.g. with love poems) but was known as women’s hand because women wrote literature in it while men used Chinese for that. Brandon just switched the genders, and the glyphs seem to be no full writing system unlike Chinese characters.
For us being illiterate might be hard to understand because writing is so important in our society, but in most historical societies it was limited to a small group. In medieval Europe many kings were illiterate, only monks (and some nuns) could read.
Originally writing was probably invented by merchants and tax collectors for bookkeeping. That seems to be a women’s job in Alethkar. Like glyphs early writing wasn’t a full script that could express everything. Glyphs might actually be enough for things like counting soldiers or identifying armies that men need, while full writing that allows things like poetry and philosophy is reserved for women because those are female occupations.

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nerium
7 years ago

@70 I don’t particularly like Jasnah, actually, and that time she killed those thugs looked like a clear violation of both Life before Death AND Journey before Destination. As for Renarin still wearing his Shardplate, I imagine Glys prefers the idea of Renarin being safer. It seems obvious that different types of spren have different opinions regarding the matter. Syl ans the Stormfather abhor it, Pattern finds it intriguing. I’d hazard a guess that Ivory would have a similar opinion to Pattern in this.

I must agree, to my disappointment, that Adolin and Shallan are not likely to last. There seems to have been too much foreshadowing against them, and in favour of Shallan and Kaladin. Still, there might be a silver lining there. I cannot imagine Shallan ever being with the killer of her favourite brother. Think about it. No matter how amazing the person was, could you ever choose a person who killed your family member, even if it was, say, a car accident? Therefore, my guess is that if we are going to have Shallan and Kaladin together, we are going to see Helaran again. Perhaps what Mraize promised Shallan was not information but the man himself? Maybe he was the prisoner of Ghostbloods all this time, or something. Well, one can hope. I STILL don’t like Kaladin and Shallan together though, no matter how amazing the scene in the chasms was. I guess I just don’t like seemingly pre-destined relationships.

The Dalinar chapter made me think that if the dead Shardblades can hate, they are vulnerable to Odium’s influence. Perhaps, if a proto-KR could reawaken the blade, so could the other side? That would make someone else’s comment regarding the missing Shards even more ominous. 

I also cannot help but think that the roaming free Re-Shephir who intimately knows Shallan can’t be good news…

So excited for the meeting! I really chuckled at that part. And Taravangian seems to have reached a decision… Can’t wait for the next Tuesday.

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7 years ago

I think it’s incredibly interesting that Re-Shephir tries to take Pattern’s place in their bond, and hints strongly that the Unmade can bond with others like Pattern and Syl do.  I think we’ll see it come back bonded to someone else, like Amaram or Mraise, someone really distasteful.

I didn’t realize these chapter releases are missing the interludes.  Now when I get the book I’ll have a reason to start reading from the beginning, which should be fun.

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LordVorless
7 years ago

Ah, the only thing I hate about this is reading only three chapters a week.

Thought:  Is Urithiru a spaceship?  

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7 years ago

I’m pretty sure in my own head that Shallan’s next Ideal, and level-up, will come when she accepts all the parts of herself and actually become herself for the first time.

Also, the goosebumps I got while reading that middle chapter were nobody’s business.  Cannot wait for the book to drop onto my Kindle.

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7 years ago

To many who believes that Shallan and Adolin will break up because she won’t tell him her secrets at this early part of their relationship – My two cents worth – HUH? 

How many of you are married? How many of you has had a meaningful relationship or are in one? 

Next question – when you were dating, did you tell your future “significant other” all your secrets during the first two months of your relationship?

Please remember that Adolin and Shallan had been going out for actually less than two months. Shallan arrived at the Shattered Plains about 30 days before the Kholin Army went to the center of the Shattered Plains and Shallan found Urithiru. 

Adolin was “in jail” for two weeks and Shallan was lost at the chasm for an unspecified number of days. 

I’m not saying that Adolin and Shallan do not have problems as a couple in a budding relationship. But, please stop and think about how much time they have been “dating.” And please ask yourself if you will tell all your secrets to someone you have only known for just a little over a month.

Just my thoughts.

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7 years ago

@168: I noted Renarin having a camaraderie with Bridge 4 and while the scene we have read was awesome, I also felt it depicted Adolin as the “outsider” and yeah it made me feel sorry for him. And yeah, it gave me the impression Renarin was spending more time with Bridge 4 now than with Adolin, which is great for him, but sad for Adolin because Renarin was about the only friend he had.

I really do not get why “Adolin being the heir” means he can’t be close to anyone and the analogy with Dalinar literally doesn’t hold. Dalinar has Navani, he has General Khal, up until recently he had Kadash, a long time ago he had Gavilar: Dalinar has never been alone nor friendless. Adolin currently doesn’t have many people to talk to, to rely onto, he had Shallan, but it wasn’t really Shallan, just another one of her personas.

These are my thoughts, I read those chapters and I make observations just like everyone else. So what if I think Adolin looks lonely? I don’t understand why it seems to upset you so much.

The “rain on my parade” comment also was kind of not required. And I don’t get what Prince William and Harry have to do with SA. Just because they have one relationship does not mean Adolin and Renarin will have the same: this is not even an argument.

@179: I has been several weeks already since they arrived in Urithiru. Adolin and Shallan have been dating for months, not weeks and what tick some of us off is the fact she literally refuses to even think of Adolin eventually knowing. It isn’t a matter of her “not being ready”, the written words conveyed a strong sense of repulsion at the idea.

And yeah, after a few months of dating, it is usually the time to start being a bit more honest with each other.

On Others who think it is Amusing to Speculate as to whether or not I am the same individual as someone else posting elsewhere:

1) Not cool.
2) Not interesting.

Drop it.

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7 years ago

nerium @@@@@ 175. I don’t get the sense that Syl minds shardplate. In the 4-on-1 duel in WOR, Kaladin uses the helmet from one of the shardbearers to fight. Syl doesn’t seem perturbed by this and there is no scream in his head. She also doesn’t seem bothered by shardplate users on the battlefield or sparring grounds. This leads me to think that shardplate is not a dead spren, so Glys and the other spren probably don’t mind their bondmates using it. 

Speaking of Renarin in shardplate, it was great to seeing him fight without flinching or hesitating. I wonder if gaining his own sprenblade has boosted his confidence. A blade that can communicate with you telepathically is probably a lot easier to work with than a huge chunk of screaming metal. 

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7 years ago

@55 Aon Reo
While it was Renarin who wrote down the countdown, somehow I don’t see him stealing Shallan’s sketchpad, scribbling drawings in it, and putting it back with no one wondering where he’s gone or seeing him do it.

In the last few chapters when Shallan is drawing and making the map, Renarin is next to Dalinar and all the other people. Since Shallan is pretending to be a non-lightweaver, does that mean Renarin is pretending to create the map with Dalinar?

If he is the one pretending, that must’ve been awkward when Shallan ran out without any warning.

@120 KefkaPalazzo
I would be totally fine if, once we get to Renarin’s flashback book (book 7 or 8 or so?) several of his flashbacks are just ‘Bridge Four game night’ and ‘Bridge Four goes out drinking’ without any other useful information being told to us. :)

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7 years ago

@173 – you’ve hit upon the secret power of Tor.com re-reads.  I mostly lurk on this one but have actively participated on many.  The collective wisdom of the Tor.com community and the discussions that particular posts and series inspire are truly special.  Always a pleasure and an honor to be part of and party to these thoughtful discussions of books and life.  

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7 years ago

I would like to throw out a theory that came to me reading about how the Unmade tried to bond with Shallan.  It occurs to me that something like this may have happened before.  If Unmade can “take over” a Nahel bond, would it also stand to reason that such a thing would be thought of as a “wicked thing of great eminence” when it was discovered by the Knights Radiant.  And could such a possibility be sufficient to drive said Knights to renounce the Nahel bond in an attempt to end the threat of the Unmade seizing control of them through the bond?

 This could be similar to how Ruin could hijack anyone pierced by metal.  The “broken” qualities of the person capable of the Nahel bond could be compared to the piercing by metal.

Just a thought.

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7 years ago

Gepeto @@@@@ 180 – Fantasy does not live in a vacuum. One of the reasons why this fantasy series is very successful is because it resonates and relates to today’s world. Whether it was by design or just because that was the way the story went, having Prince William and Prince Harry, the real Heir and Spare, whom the term was invented for help out a lot. So yes, the two British princes are relevant to the Stormlight Archive whether you see it or not. 

As for Dalinar having friends, the names you mention work for him. They are not his friends. He eats alone during the feasts. Only Adolin comes to see him and sit with him. Not one of those lighteyes you mentioned “socialize” with Dalinar. So, yes, Dalinar has no friends since he became the de facto ruler of Alethkar. He has associates. And the one person whom he thought was his friend, Sadeas betrayed him. Gavilar is Dalinar’s only true friend. 

Adolin being heir is the key to everything happening around him. It  has been mentioned so many times in WoK and WoR. He can go where even high rank lighteyes cannot go because he is Dalinar’s heir. Again, remember the saying, “it is lonely at the top” and this applies to Adolin, Dalinar, even Sebarial and old Sadeas.

But, let us go back to the chasm that you feel is developing between Renarin and Adolin. It is hard to believe that Renarin’s friendship with Bridge 4 will affect his devotion to his brother. 

Let me ask you a question – think of your best friend. Does a chasm develop between you and your BFF when you meet new people and make new friends? 

From my personal experience, my best friend in high school is still my best friend up to today. It does not matter that since we left for college, we had lived in different states. And thanks to today’s technology, we text and talk everyday even though we have very busy lives. A chasm between us never developed though obviously we made other friends. 

You ask me why I was upset.. I am not upset. I am just saddened how narrow that viewpoint on the relationship between Adolin and Renarin. They are brothers. They are best friends. They care for one another. And Shallan, even with all her secrets seem to be a very good fit with the Kholins.

Hope this explains to you. I did not touch on other things. Sorry. I try to avoid walls of text. :-)

 

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7 years ago

@185 The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison aka Sarah Monette is a good book about, in part, how rulers can have friends.

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7 years ago

So this new power plant…  I”m thinking lights, heat, maybe energy domes for the gardens?

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7 years ago

@150, we know that at least in one case two Radiants can combine their power to do something neither can do alone: the map that Shallan and Dalinar make. One wonders if (with Dalinar’s Bondsmith help?) Shallan and Renarin could combine their abilities to see what the books originally looked like, even if they can’t physically recreate them.

I’m wondering if this might be Navani’s book to shine, since those gemstones are obviously powering a gigantic fabrial that is Urithuru. She’s the best Artifabrian we’ve met so far.

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7 years ago

Random, long winded thoughts:

Pleased to see Shallan continue to progress in her healing. She really has come a long way in a really short space of time.

Also, I’m not entirely sure why, but I kind of hope that Gaz is the first person to find out that Veil is Shallan. He showed glimpses of a good man wanting to escape from behind his own weaknesses, even in WoK, and I find myself hoping that Shallan’s talents draw that man out.

I’m hardly surprised that Shallan doesn’t want to tell Adolin about Veil – she doesn’t want to tell anyone about Veil (and I’m pretty sure that would include Kaladin). With Adolin the desire may indeed be amplified… but that’s because she clearly wants to make a favourable impression upon Adolin. It’s not because she doesn’t care for Adolin, it’s exactly the opposite.

Amaram continues to make ad hoc rationalisations for his actions, I see. He strikes me as a zealot, which is particularly conducive to being manipulated by hate. I could easily see him being bound to a voidspren/unmade in the future. Particularly as I have suspected Ialai is bound to a voidspren since WoR.

Interesting that Oathbringer’s screams are muted to Dalinar. I wonder, if a Shardbearer grasped Adolin’s Shardblade, how loud the screams would be in Adolin’s head? The spren are aware of what their owners do (presumably only after the 10 seconds have elapsed), which suggests that Adolin’s rapport with his blade may not have been quite so one-sided as it appeared at first glance. 

Absolutely loved Dalinar’s scenes. I love the contrast between Taravangian’s (and to a lesser amount Amaram’s) certainty, and Dalinar’s uncertainty in, and search for, a moral code. How much a ruler (or ruling body) should prioritise protection of its citizens as a body compared to protection of its citizens as individuals is a fascinating question, especially in the context of Roshar, Desolations, and current technological level and forms of government. 

Re-Shephir is very interesting. I hesitate to advance any theories, if only because the ones that come to mind don’t seem to quite fit, even to myself. I can’t help but wonder if there is a clue in the name assigned to them though – the unmade. As others have noted, curiosity doesn’t seem to exactly fit with the emotion of Odium. Is it possible that rather than creating them, Odium corrupted something else, unmaking them? That would fit with the feelings of wrongness that Shallan and Renarin are getting. After all, in itself the emotions of odium aren’t ‘wrong’, per se, and particularly not in the Cosmere, where Odium is described as ‘God’s own hatred’.

But given that I suspect myself to be following a wild goose chase here, I hardly expect anyone to agree with me!

We haven’t seen much of Bridge Four this book, and even in these scenes they are tertiary, but I am absolutely loving their interactions. They may not have Kaladin’s gifted powers currently, and may not have even seen him for weeks, but his influence still shines through. I wonder if Syl’s reference to having ‘babies’ rather than foreshadowing Shardplate could be foreshadowing her ‘awakening’ windspren into becoming honorspren. Presumably the Stormfather’s forbidding of honorspren to make their way to the Physical Realm still holds, and that would be a neat way of maintaining the restriction whilst still allowing more Windrunners to be created. And who better than Bridge Four to be chosen by Syl’s babies?

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@@@@@ 171 Spiritwalker

Good catch/connection. I think that is definitely a possibility. If it wasn’t Re-Sephir Gavilar was referring to, then I think it is still related. Perhaps, as Re-Sephir seems to be the anti-Lightweaver (or anti-illumination surge), there is another unmade that is the anti-bondsmith or anti-adhesion/tension surge. And whichever capture came first, that may have led to the idea for capturing the other unmade. Or it could just be some more traditional spren that was captured. Who knows? But it’s fun to speculate.

@@@@@161 Gingerific

I agree that it sure seems like the foundation is there for some very “high technology” type stuff exists in Urithiru. I also thought those large flat panels seemed like monitors and it seems like there is a the basis for things like indoor lighting, plumbing, and HVAC systems. Fun possibilities. Of course, @@@@@177 might have the real reason – that it’s the spaceship that humans first arrived in soulcast to stone!

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7 years ago

@@@@@.182: I am not sure how the flashback for the second half will be organized for characters such as Lift and Renarin. It seems to me we are to get enough insights onto their current past to use up a flashback spot to better flesh it out. This is true especially for Lift (I honestly do not see how Brandon could fit 10 chapters or so of past life for Lift given he’s already told us the big lines in Edgedancer), I suspect this will be true for Renarin as well. Hence I wondered if those flashbacks won’t relate to events happening in between both halves.

@@@@@185: The British princes are completely irrelevant: just because there are two real-life princes having a given relationship absolutely does not imply two fictional princes will have the same unless you want to theorize Brandon inspired his writing of Adolin/Renarin on the current royal British family which I sincerely doubt he did.

My reasons for thinking Renarin is drifting away from Adolin is based on the textual at hand. Back in WoK/WoR, the brothers spent a lot of time together and their interactions felt genuine. Now in OB, the brothers do not spend much time together and their one interaction was adorably sweet, but it mostly was Adolin doing the confidence talk to Renarin while he was internally aching. It was fake. It was Adolin, once again, putting on a “steady” face and pretending nothing is wrong with Renarin seemed oblivious to it.

Something was off in the way they spoke to each other, something changed. There was a disconnect in between them and while they do love each other, it does seem as if Renarin was moving away, becoming his own man which is great for him, but it means Adolin remains behind.

There also are many scenes where Renarin is seen to stand next to Dalinar while Adolin is standing at a distance. The visual is important and I am not the only note who noted it.

As for BFF, life is not a Disney movie where “friends for life” actually is a finality in itself. People move away, they chose a way of life, they settle on values, they changed their relationship circle: just because you have a close friend at one given period of your life does not mean you will retain this friend.

This being said, Renarin will always be Adolin’s brother, but I personally read a distance forming in between them. I don’t think they will stay as close as they used to be. Whether I am right or wrong, I guess we’ll have to keep on reading.

I never read Dalinar as a lonely character. Seems to me he always had people to rely to onto various phases of his life: they changed, but there always were someone.

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n3verendR
7 years ago

@71 I hate to say it, but that’s the first thing that came to my mind as well as soon as I finished Chapter 30… Here’s to hoping it’s not true!

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@158:

I hate to break it to you, but all of the things you’ve objected to as unrealistic have historical precedence in our own real world.

In the case of Vorinism, the answers have been provided in-text. On my phone, so can’t really provide a lot of detail, but the Alethi mandate to be the nation that stayed ready militarily for the next Desolation ked to a religious cult that eventually became Vorinism. At some point during the Heirocracy, the Male and Female arts were created. These were taught as Dogma, and became part of the culture. As to WHY some group of people decided to create such a division? That is self-evident. Especially with the reading. Just think of who was excluded from the separation of these “Arts”.

The ardents. The division of reading, and other things into male and female arts was intended to make the warrior males more easy for the Heirocracy to control.

In summary, the Male and Female Arts didn’t develop naturally, at least in the beginning. They were designed, and then enforced through religious Dogma. Denial of an afterlife is a powerful motivator.

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7 years ago

Gak! Y’all are so prolific in the comments this week, every time I check there are 40 more! :) So I’m going to toss in just a few things here, which may or may not have been addressed since last night…

Elle @41 – You are correct – Lyn the scout is based on Lyndsey Luther, co-writer of the Edgedancer reread. They just misspelled her name on the Coppermind. (Note to self – get that fixed!) The beta readers were collectively over the moon to see her show up again in Oathbringer!

Beren @72 – LOL! Exactly! Also, good to see you again.

Keyblazing @74 – The Oathbringer reread isn’t specifically planned yet, but there’s a decent chance that Lyn and I will do something similar to the Edgedancer reread. If I’m part of it, expect that it won’t start until January at the earliest – I need some time off, and I intend to dedicate myself to celebrating the holidays without writing commitments. :D  But seriously, we probably won’t wait too long to get it going – there’s so much to talk about!

 iguacufalls @87 – ROFL!! Nice one. (Also noblehunter @88)

@many – The beta readers were not asked to vote on who Shallan ends up with. That’s totally Brandon’s decision – it’s his story. Beta readers give input on what they like and don’t like, but he rarely changes anything about the plot itself due to our input; it’s mostly in the working-out of the details — the equivalent of, “To get from Seattle to Atlanta, does it work better to go by way of Dallas or Minneapolis? Why? What are the pros and cons of each route, from your perspective?” Sometimes you always thought you’d say Minneapolis, but end up deciding that there’s a cool unexpected payoff in going by way of Dallas. Also, “the beta readers having voted on a particular plot point and they turning out (for the majority) being wrong.” This doesn’t even make sense… No one is “right” or “wrong” in the beta, except when we theorize. I don’t even know where this came from.

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Tengine
7 years ago

Regarding the epigraph author being Dalinar, which I support, the one hang-up seems to be the idea that the author has seen into Shadesmar.

This is speculation, but is it possible that Dalinar actually has seen into Shadesmar when the Nightwatcher gave him his boon and curse? Do we know the process that takes? Even Dalinar says he doesn’t remember much of the visit, but his memory is now returning. 

We’ve seen that soulcasting/transformation occurs within the cognitive realm. And in other books that abilities are granted by affecting the spiritual aspect of an individual. With that in mind, it seems plausible that the Nightwatcher affects some sort of transformation whithin the individual which would need to occur within either the Cognitive or Spiritual realm. I can easily imagine this process as being “hung” between realms.

Anyway, speculation over. 

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@@@@@ all concerning the 4 hanged men conundrum.

I think that this is an instance of mr. T trying to determine if he can work with Dalinar, and also is an important question for Dalinar’s progression in his Ideals as a bondsmith. From his arrival at Urithuru Taravangian has been trying to force Dalinar down the path of the Aggressor, not the Peacemaker, as one is ally and the other is an impediment that needs to be removed (according to the diagram). The little fabrial side chat is another instance of Mr. T trying to determine if Dalinar can be an ally or if he has to be removed. He is hoping that Dalinar can be swayed, but the final line with Dalinar and Taravangian is quite chilling: 

They sat by the not-fire for a time before Taravangian eventually stood up and rested his hand on Dalinar’s shoulder. “I understand,” he said soflty, then left.

Watch out for a knife in the Back Dalinar, Mr. T has decided you can’t be worked with, I believe.

Quick note, the idea that Splinters of Odium are somehow matched to an anti-thetical surge is just plain freaking awesome. Illumination being the opposite in intent to Midnight Essence, and that each order of Radiant has a special capacity to take out a particular aspect of Odium is amazing. Any speculation on what the opposite surges for the Thrill and the Death Rattle would be?

I personally think (just speculation) that the nine shadows behind the champion of Odium are 9 Splinters of Odium, and the one remaining champion is the 10th part of Odiums symmetrical system to offset the 10 surges/heralds/orders of Knight Radiants.

Have to get back to work…What an amazing group of chapters though.

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7 years ago

I’m starting to have more hope for Adolin and Shallan after reading all the comments. After all, Adolin hasn’t told Shallan his biggest secret either. Perhaps that telling between them will be the big break through.

My theory on the Recreance is that the capture of the spren and the slavery of the Parshmen is what caused it. Maybe the KR had to break their bonds to provide enough energy to trap the bad spren. Or maybe the whole thing just disgusted them.

So, are we now thinking that Re-Saphir was in that globe that was given to Szeth? And will she now run into Kaladin’s group of Parshmen???? Also, wasn’t there a 2nd globe?

And now for my Soap Opera Digest: Re-Saphir will create “Evil Shallan” to try and seduce both Adolin and Kaladin. Then when Urithiru returns to life Dalinar will take a shower and realize it has all been a dream.

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7 years ago

For those looking for “missing interludes” remember that the interludes only happen between Parts of the book.  We’re getting only Part One in the preview chapters, which means that the first interludes won’t happen until AFTER these chapters.  We haven’t missed anything other than some art, from what I recall.

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7 years ago

Argh. We can’t post spoilers on the Parshendi article. I can’t even complain about it on that post, because it’d be a spoiler to even complain about the restriction.

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Jake
7 years ago

Shallan is so annoying. 

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Wesley
7 years ago

Will Dalinar be able to call the Stormfather to become his Shardblade? Would that end an on-going highstorm? Could that be used as a military tactic to prevent the west from having Stormlight?

Why hasn’t Shallan even acknowledged her ability to soulcast? She spends so much time practicing with her other Surge. 

Will ALL of the Unmade be evil counterparts to the Surges that makes up the Knights Radiant? Midnight mother was the counterpart to Shallan’s illusions, I wonder if that trend will continue. 

jarchowm
7 years ago

@118, Lightbringer

Interesting thought experiment.

The 3 guilty could defeat it by the “leader” of the 3 declaring innocence and the other 2 admitting guilt and declaring the leader is innocent.  This would result in 4 miscarriages of justice.  1 innocent executed, 1 guilty set free, and two guilty with a reduced sentence.

Unfortunately, logic seems far less likely to result in a fair outcome than the suggestion by @123 dptullos to hire a detective to investigate.

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7 years ago

From the parshendi article

Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men. A form of power, like human Surges. Bring it ’round again. Though crafted of gods, It was by Unmade hand. Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend. (127th stanza of the Song of Histories); Smokeform for hiding and slipping ‘tween men. A form of power—like Surges of spren. Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies. Crafted of gods, this form we fear. By Unmade touch its curse to bear, Formed from shadow—and death is near. It lies. (51st stanza of the Song of Secrets).

Though we can be pretty sure there haven’t been any parshmen or parshendi in Urithiru for a long time if ever.

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7 years ago

Wesley @201, Stormfather has stated clearly he will never be a shardblade and Dalinar will have to be Shardless.
As for your other questions … unfortunately I do not know.

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7 years ago

Goddesimho @197.  You forgot one other plot point in your soap opera digest.  We will find out that the real Adolin has been trapped in a cave for years.  The character who we thought was Adolin will be discovered to be somehow permanently given a disguise by Shalash.

We will then get the following epigraph: Like stormlight reflected in a gemhart, so are the Days of Our Lives on Roshar.

Wesley @201.  When the Stormfather agreed to be bound by Dalinar, he told Dalinar that he will not form a Shardblade for Dalinar.  As such, Dalinar will be a KR without a Shardweapon.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

Deleted the word “with” and added the word “without” above. 

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nerium
7 years ago

@188 The way I see it could work is if the surges were combined in such a way that the history of those books was rewritten into how they did not decay, like it is done through Forgery on Sel. Perhaps Regrowth and Division performed by Renarin and Malata while Shallan tries to talk to the objects via Shadesmar, prying into their past? Meh, just an amusing image. 

“I was a book”

“Yes, and you could be a book again! You would like that, wouldn’t you?”

“I was a book”

“Shallan! Will you hurry up? We’re holding Stormlight here!”

“I was a book”

“I know, I know, but what KIND of book?”

“Shallaaaan!”

“Working on it!”

“I was a book”

ad infinitum

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@194 Wedlandernw

As I was the first one to bring up the voting thing, I’ll clarify real quick. I know that the comment was likely pointed to some other plot point, and most likely minor, but I was just expressing what my thought had been when I read it. There were obviously numerous assumptions in that thought – that it was about the relationship stuff, that anyone would view the relationships it the same way as me, etc., but that is the example that I thought of when I read the line. So, with the current debate on the ‘shipping’, that is why I brought it up then.

Anyway, now that I said all that and started a dust storm I went back to the article to try and find the phrase that I used to jump to that random conclusion…. and I can’t find it! So maybe I’m just crazy. It’s weird, though, because I can remember the line clearly, but it isn’t in the beta-reading experience article here on Tor, which is where I thought I read it. So who knows… must be a Matrix glitch.

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7 years ago

@191 Gepeto
Yes that’s true, but less fun. I’d be perfectly happy with a larger book if we could have more Bridge Four. :)

I have the feeling somehow that the flashback characters are chosen because they have a secret in their past that will be revealed over the course of the book, but I can’t find any WoBs, so I don’t know if it’s true. I don’t think we should ever say that we can’t see how Brandon Sanderson will manage something, since he at least manages to surprise me most of the time.

@194 Wetlandernw
Thanks!

@205 AndrewHB
Did you mean to say Dalinar will have ‘a Shardweapon’ (instead of ‘no Shardweapon’)? because I’m not sure that is quite true.

The Stormfather says ‘you will be a Radiant without Shards’ implying Dalinar will have no blade and no plate.
Obviously the Stormfather will not form a shardblade, but the plate issue is interesting.

So there’s this prevalent theory that the ‘cousin spren’ form shardplate (windspren and honorspren, creationspren and cryptics). If we combine it with one of this week’s popular theories of ‘there are 9 Unmade, one for each order, except the Bondsmiths, because there is no cousin spren for them’, could that be a reason for why Dalinar won’t be able to get either shard?

No shardblade because his truespren refuses, no shardplate because his cousin spren don’t exist?

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7 years ago

Why was Re-Shephir’s shadow thing watching Shallan during her play as a quiet observer?

Also we have listed 6 Unmade: Yelig-nar (Blightwind), Sja-anat, Nergaoul, Moelach, Daigonarthis, and Re-Shephir (Unmade on Coppermind)

Scath
Scath
7 years ago

my theory is still very loose, and could very easily be wrong, but regarding windrunners making more sense to be associated with gravity than skybreakers, adhesion is referred to as “atmospheric pressure”. that screams wind a lot more to me than gravity. However, going on your premise, this also could be extended to elsecallers. Makes it sound like they are teleporters more than transformers while willshapers sound more like transformers (shaping at their will) yet they would be more attuned to teleportation according to my theory. So I do not believe the name is intrinsic to what surge they lend more towards, or learn first. Also it could very well be just the surge they learn first, but the one they are known for they learn later. But if that was the case, then lightweavers, edgedancers, and dustbringers would disprove that as lightweavers are known for illumination, edgedancers for abrasion, and dustbringers for division. As I said, this theory is very loose, and has very little than circumstantial evidence to support it. Hopefully more comes up in oathbringer to either place the nail in the coffin, or support it further. Would be cool if I am right, because it would mean based on what surge a budding radiant shows first, could indicate which order they belong to before even meeting their spren, or knowing anything about them. 

Scath
Scath
7 years ago

or perhaps even Dalinar is using adhesion first because as i think someone mentioned, he had Kaladin to emulate, so he tried what he knew first. Very soldier way of thinking. Perfect what you already have access with so you can use it as a weapon, then experiment with the unknown, in this case surge. 

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Joshua Danes
7 years ago

To me the pillar of gemstones is proof that Urithiru is a giant fabrial.  Larger than the oathgates, but used for the specific purpose of stopping a desolation.  Perhaps a early warning device, which would explain how the Knights Radiant knew the where the midnight essence was in Dalinar’s vision.  Also interesting to note is that the knight wondered who had released the midnight essence, this seems strange to me if the unmade were never bound, and were simply allowed to do whatever they wished.  There must be something more, perhaps the old magic used to release midnight essence, or the thrill, or even the death rattles, as the curse related to the boon, as opposed to altering memories, or making someones right hand go numb for the rest of their life.

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7 years ago

Elle @208.  I meant that Dalinar will not be able to summon the Stormfather to for a sword or any other weapon or device.  We have seen in WoR and Edgedaner, that a Nahel-bonded spren does not have to form a sword.  Syl transferred herself into a shield or spear, depending upon Kaladin’s exact need.  Wyndle transferred himself into a rod and a fork.  Thus, saying a “Shardblade” would be too limiting.  IMO, it is clear from the Stormfather’s statement at the end of WoR that if Dalinar looses his knife at dinner, he should not expect the Stormfather to come and change into a Shardknife.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren 

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7 years ago

AndrewHB
That’s what I thought, but your last sentence was ‘As such, Dalinar will be a KR with a Shardweapon’, which did imply he would get a shard somehow. But I figure that was a typo.

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7 years ago

noblehunter @@@@@ 203. There is Rlain, who we haven’t yet seen in Oathbringer with the rest of Bridge Four. Hopefully he hasn’t turned into smokeform!

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Capo
7 years ago

Apologies, was not aiming to offend. Was only musing out loud. Dropping it now.

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7 years ago

@189: I thought Amaram’s rationalization was sound and I enjoyed reading it. He said out loud what I have been thinking for a long time. Dalinar became the man he is because he slayed innocents, but now thinks he is apt to pass judgment on others having done much less for reasons he actually genuinely believes are sound. Dalinar had no valid reasons to do what he did other than “it felt good to kill people” and now he claims the higher moral ground because he has “changed.” Sure, he did, but when has he ever faced the truth of the man he once was? So far never, but I am sure it will happen within this book and I am really keen to read it.

I wouldn’t say Amaram would end up a real villain. 

Oathbringer wouldn’t scream to Dalinar because Dalinar unbounded it. I thus would assume Adolin’s Blade would hate him because he has bonded it. I am really starting to think Adolin reviving his Blade was another red hearing: Oathbringer sounded much closer to reawakening than Adolin’s Blade ever was.

@197: The problem is Adolin is nowhere close to tell anyone about his secret. There were three ways I thought Adolin could speak the truth: 1) the guilt is too much for him to bear and he has to get it out, 2) he becomes a suspect because of clues left behind, 3) he breaks down under the pressure which is very similar to 1). So far in the story, 1) Adolin feels zero guilt for his actions, 2) weeks later they found no clues which means there are none to find, 3) Adolin might be a bit unnerved, but he is leagues away from breaking down.

Hence, unless something spectacular happens, Adolin will not speak and nobody will find out, not in the near future and this includes Shallan.

@210: Good question about Shallan… Why indeed?

@207: Oh I saw this mention of a poll within the beta readers elsewhere, but I can’t remember where precisely. Nothing was ever said on it except they “voted” and many interpreted they voted on Shallan’s love life. Now we know this was misinformation. Glad to get this one out of the way.

@208: Well, Brandon did say the purpose of the flashback sequences was to unravel one specific secret within the past of a given character. I however do not know if he meant the flashback for the first arc only or the entire book. While I can easily conceive characters such as Jasnah, Taln and Shalash may have secrets within their past which will not be broached within the present narrative and remain relevant once we reached their books, I can’t say I can do the same about Renarin and Lift. In Lift’s case, I felt Edgedancer revealed the most daring secrets, I can’t figure out there is more to add which won’t be mentioned within her present day narrative. In Renarin’s case, I also can’t see what is so interesting about his past. What is mysterious about him happens within the present, not the past so again I can’t say I am seeing what Brandon wishes to write. Also, by the time we get to his book, we will probably know enough to figure it out. Hence I am thinking the flashbacks for the second half may be different: they may not work around a secret or this secret may happen during the in-world gap.

There is a WoB which states Bondsmiths never had Blades. There is no such thing as a Bondsmith’s Shardblade.

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Tommy
7 years ago

Serial thought dump. My apologies.

RE: The meaning and purpose of the strata. Kabranth is described in much the same way except it lacks the ominous hints. That could be because Kabranth didn’t have an unmade chained in its belly. Kabranth is also rumored to have been created by the dawnsingers.

RE Dustbringrers and their spren wanting to see inside things and how they work. Isn’t that what the arson Forch in Bands of Mourning said?

More on strata: I don’t see the strata serving the purpose of carrying stormlight because there are so many cases where parts of Urithiru are powered by supplying a gem, and the cages that they found to lower gems into the elevation where they could be infused.

I expected the stormfather could carry Dalinar with him to see the land like he did with Kaladin ages ago. But I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me he could show the visions to anyone the bondsmith directed. For that matter why can’t he show a vision that Dalinar comes up with? I for one can’t wait to see Dalinar and his Ardent having a heart to heart while Honor speaks to them from the grave. Kadesh likely can discard that vision too but we will see.

I will bet pattern can discern the pages of the books that otherwise will crumble to the touch. I won’t be more than an ardent might but that is my bet.

The four prisoners dilema. I can’t wait to see where Dalinar lands at the end. The thing is even Nohadon’s solution still did violence to the innocent, even if it didn’t kill him.

I wonder if the column of gems was purpose built as the prison for the unmade.

I am not sure the name Ardent only surfaced after the hierocracy was put down. I can still see it being an ancient text.

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7 years ago

Re: 205 AndrewHB

Love it. “Like stormlight reflected in a gemhart”.

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7 years ago

Whoever the epigraph author is, I really wish he or she would get to the point. I’m not certain we’ve met someone this pompous in book yet.

 

 

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Justin K
7 years ago

@217 – I think Renarin and Lift’s backstories might surprise a lot of us, especially if they remain peripheral/interlude characters. Although not explicitly stated, it seems like some sort of trauma allows the people to Invest, which would make for interesting reads.

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7 years ago

RE: the dilemma of the 4 accused 

Any solution that resorts to figuring out who is innocent is missing the point. In the real world (and on Roshar, I guess), there are situations when you don’t know whether someone is innocent or not. Making up a way to avoid that only avoids the truth that we aren’t omniscient. 

In our system of justice, we try to lean toward protecting the innocent, but it is clear that we aren’t perfect at it. Does that mean we should only punish people who confess to crimes (without getting into false confessions, even)? Either we let everyone go (likely causing the harming of innocent people), no one go (definitely harming one innocent person), or we take it on a case-by-case basis and try to do the best we can with what information we have.

I like that Dalinar says that Nohadon doesn’t answer the question right away, but keeps coming back to it. That’s important, because there’s no avoiding the fact that a case-by-case basis will also sometimes punish an innocent person, or allow the guilty to go unpunished and threaten harm to other innocents. 

To me the real danger is burying our head in the sand and assuming that there is some perfect solution that can eliminate the problem or absolve our responsibility. A judge has to bear the weight of the fact that sometimes, she will unavoidably do harm, despite doing everything correctly and “morally.”

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7 years ago

@217

Can you link that WoB about Bondsmith’s shardblade? The only WoB I found regarding is this:

INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014
WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)
RHANDRIC
Have the Bondsmiths ever had a Shardblade? Have any other Bondsmiths had Shardblades?
BRANDON SANDERSON
RAFO! Good question. Good question.
 
 
It doesn’t say explicitly say that Bondsmith’s had no blade, he just RAFO’d it.

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7 years ago

SW51 @171: Great catch.  Edited for additional commentary:

Working under the assumption that capturing an Unmade can have such a strong, restrictive impact on potential (?) voidbringers, what are the result of capturing the other Unmade in a gemstone? Is the impact of capturing an Unmade specific to its particular power or can the capturer dictate its impact?

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Kershaw
7 years ago

these were great.   Had a thought about what I think will be the primary mystery of this book, the Recreance – I expect the big reveal at the end will be an answer.  What if the recreance was a way to stop Unmade/voidspren from bonding people? Maye the only way to stop it was to give up bonding completely. 

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Tommytiprat
7 years ago

@71  my thoughts exactly- Kal will return with shard plate built using spren  trained by Syl, coinciding with Ad/Shal breakup and Ad will go to the dark side on the false notion that is was Kals fault  

Why couldn’t there be a short new arc where Amaram reeks havoc but eventually comes good and writes OB? Or dies  

NExt, I haven’t read any comments about the Storm Fathers advice that to force Odium to pick a champion Odium needs to believe that he’ll lose. And to do that, they need another god.  

So my Big Call is that there will be an an arc (maybe books long??) about almost winning but being smote because the significance of this wwas not understood  by Dalinar. 

Then they’ll have to start again from behind and win before the desolation is complete 

Lastly, maybe Cultivation and Honor Spren must work as a team to be fully equipped Knights Radient. 

or more radical, do the Parshendi bond windspren to form shard plate for KR?? 

Its been fun to actually think out loud some of my weirder theories 

Tommytiprat

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7 years ago

If you all want an interesting framework to theorize about Shallan’s character development then take a gander at Jungian theory, paying careful attention to the Shadow Archetype and the other collective consciousness archetypes which she utilizes in her Lightweaving and took on during her childhood to cope and protect herself and her siblings I’m under the impression that BWS is using this concept as her intra/interpersonal foil and it will likely be significant to guesswork on where she’s headed as a character. 

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regarding Shallan not revealing herself as Veil to Adolin (yes this includes Gepeto):

Shallan had to make the decision after having outpaced her extra assistance in the guise of Veil that this situation might require the use of powers that Veil would have a hard time explaining why she had them. She, as Lift might say, might need to be Awesome. The usefulness of a secret alter ego rests in the fact that it is in fact secret.She doesn’t want anyone to ascribe radiant like powers to Veil, least of all Adolin (because he might be the one quickest to make the jump between the personas).

Someone commented, I’m not sure which comment, about how Shallan’s different selves are like personas, akin to the masks that everyone adopts when interacting with other people, they just happen to have names and distinctive boundaries. I think that there is no mere coincidence that Mraize’s Babsk Iyatil doesn’t reveal her true face. That the aspect she presents to the world is instead a stitched together assemblage of leather, carapace and something else. This is a metaphor writ large. Shallan is just like Iyatil, there is a real person behind the mask that she will have to come to terms with before she can progress as a radiant, but the masks/personas serve a useful function. Think of shallan as a persona swiss army knife, where the lie of persona can actually be transformed into a reality of action. This is similar to Legions alter egos, but she has the magic to make them more real than Legion ever did. At the same time, I think the lightweaver order in particular is susceptible to the influence of odium. The fusion of truth and lie that is necessary for their order to progress, suggests that an unprogressed lightweaver radiant might be the perfect vehicle for a voidspren to bond with. There is an inherent contradiction, an inherent blurring of the line between fiction and reality that leaves open the possibility that the pleasant fiction might win out over the bitter truth. Re-shepir does try to bond with her, and he is rebuffed by a lie, not the truth. Shallan when she is inducted into the ghostbloods, reveals that her motivation is to find the truth. Mraize and the ghostbloods offer explanations and a certain truth. These two moralities (posed by the problem of the 4 hanged men) are central to the choice that Shallan has to make as well. Between the two primary personas of Shallan and Veil, between the lie that makes life bearable (shallan) and the truth at any cost no matter who it hurts (Veil). This is a choice she will have to make, and I personally think she will side with Dalinar in this.

One other note about Taravangian. I just reread WoR and the T interlude is particularly interesting. He was at the feast when Gavilar was assassinated, he was privy to details about the visions Gavilar was having and he created the Diagram after Gavilar was murdered. In this interlude, near the end, he specifically references the words of the visionary Gavilar saying that we will Unite them. This shows, that like Gavilar and like Dalinar initially did, he mistakenly believes that the visions are compelling them to unite the nations/alethkar for the coming desolation. The whole diagram becomes suspect at this point, becuase a foundational principle is WRONG. The directive to unite them was really a directive to (as Dalinar later figured out) refound and gather the knights radiant. Also, given the fact that Taravangian has been most recently influenced by the death rattles of Moleach, we can at this point safely assume that T is a pawn in Odium’s camp.

SPECULATION TIME:

At the end of WoR the stormfather mentions that the parshendi may have created a bridge. The everstorm might be the vehicle that allows Odium to influence the world. The Thrill departs from the shattered plains (Adolin can’t call on it when he is wading through a sea of corpses of the singing storm form parshendi) and Taravangian is getting as many death rattles in Karbranth when his is Jah Kaved on the eve of assuming the throne. Maybe the adoption of storm form is a conduit for the direction of odiums powers, and by proxy, is helping to destroy whatever bounds were set at the recreance tying specific pieces of Odium to particular locations (the Thrill has left Alethkar/Jah Kaved, the death rattles have left Karbranth, and interestingly (a Dalinar aside thought) a plague has recently broken out on the purelake. What does this all mean. It means that we only have 2 freaking weeks to wait to see what this all means, pretty freaking awesome.

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Jonah
7 years ago

Hi Y’all! 

A thought came to me reading the thread, although now in the 200s, the conversation has shifted. 

We are in the dark not having any POV from Renarin. Wouldn’t it be great if we get his POV as FLASHBACKS in book 7??? 

Wouldnt that be great? We get to book Seven, then in his flashbacks get to revisit the whole series again and see it all through his eyes. Booyah! 

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7 years ago

@225 Kershaw

Hey Man, sorry about Game 7! They should have let you start the game, instead of pitching in relief! Good to see that you have Oathbringer to fall back on, though, to distract you from the pain of losing ;)

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7 years ago

In Chapter 2, it switches from “Veil ran…” to “Shallan skidded…” to “Radiant kneeled…” all within a few paragraphs of each other. Very subtle, but effective to show how Shallan no longer consciously switches, she just *is* which ever she needs to be, with each of them equally her just depending on what is needed at the time.

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WuseMajor
7 years ago

The symbols of Honor, Cultivation, and presumably Odium made me think of it, but has anyone else noticed that at one end of the continent, there is a place that is full of green and growing plants where farmers rule, in the middle we have nations so lawful that they require a form filled out in triplicate before you can rob someone, and at the other end, a group of nations that fight constantly among themselves, find battle Thrilling, and believe that god needs dead warriors?

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James Wilkinson
7 years ago

It sounds to me like the battle between shallan’s and the midnight mother was taking place on the spirit realm, which would be awesome if it did as don’t believe we know of any character in the other books (not including hoid) who have actually travelled there. It would explain why shallan’s suddenly knew everything about the spren and visa versa. It could still be the cognitive realm given patterns appearance it’s just that’s last line that says “A place beyond this room in the tower, beyond even shadesmar”.

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7 years ago

@230 that’s actually a brilliant idea

 

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7 years ago

@153 yeah I remembered that one, I was just hoping for even more. I felt like that one wasn’t enough to get a true feel for his heart and exact mentality towards this entire struggle/morality in general. I would really love to see where he is now, in his return and his interactions with Dalinar, etc. 

Yes I totally agree with you on the two. . . . Taravangian has such a pure heart, but in the end I think the gravity and weight of their world’s doom has bent him to justify/rationalize impure means. It’s always SUCH an interesting study, and one Sanderson does repeatedly with brilliance. Do the ends ever justify the means? And if so, to what degree? It’s the exact conversation between Dalinar and he, obviously. And the exact struggle Dalinar lives over and over. So fascinating.

In the end though I agree. Despite Taravangian’s intellect and vast resources, Amaram seems the greater threat simply because he is completely set in his mind. Taravangian has this inner torment which guarantees he will always search for a better way, and needs only to be shown the truth. Amaram will never consider other alternatives.

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7 years ago

@229 I never realized that. So the entire Diagram is flawed, yes. . . . wow.

 

wow

 

wow

 

wow

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7 years ago

Thought came to me (while thinking, oddly, about Zelazny’s Nine Princes in Amber): we see Adolin practicing the “throw your Shardblade” technique with his dead Blade. Consider what Kaladin could do with that: Syl forms a spear, Kal throws her through someone’s heart and then resummons her to his hand instantly without a 10-second delay. Would have made the Szeth fight a lot shorter, yes?

All this discussion of how Shallan hasn’t revealed all of her secrets to everyone yet, especially Adolin: remember that Lightweavers gain power by speaking Truths. I’m assuming that revealing herself to Adolin will be her next powerup.

201 Wesley: Stormfather tells Dalinar he refuses to be a “mere” blade. Of course he refuses a lot of stuff in the story that then happens anyway. For instance, he forbids Syl to bond with Kaladin, states that he refuses to be bound, then gets bound by Dalinar ….

217 Gepeto: Amaram is already a real villain.

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7 years ago

@138 I am also an audiobook listener (for similar reasons.  When there is something I’ve missed or confused about,  I find a quick search on 17th shard or copper mind is the fastest way to find the answers. Sometimes I need to guess on the spelling. If I can’t guess right I back up to a broader catagory and usually find a link to what I’m looking for.  

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Gandolf
7 years ago

@43, If you read all of the novels, Wit shows up in almost every single one. In addition he occasionally mentions that he is far older than he appears, and that the local dimension/world is not his home world.

 

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Drygdor
7 years ago

Well, I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been said by all you lovely people, but two weeks is suddenly much worse than the last three years have been. I need this book now!

BMcGovern
Admin
7 years ago

As always, please try to keep the conversation focused on the chapters/books, not on other participants in the discussion. Thanks!

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7 years ago

Heh … I said I probably forgot something and now I remembered what it was. Just a tiny tidbit I found amusing, about perceptions. Renarin was referred to as “the boy”. He’s as old as Kaladin …

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

writelhd@220:

That’s a joke, right? Its a freaking 435 word preface to a book. Half the comments on this thread are longer and contain even less of a point, lol. That has got to be the shortest preface I’ve ever heard of. And no one comes to a point in a preface. Its a frikkin’ preface. The book is the point.

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7 years ago

@238: I would be very surprised if Shallan’s last truth had anything to do with Adolin. All clues indicate it has everything to do with, once again, her past and her family.

@243: Adolin is referred to as “boy”, “youth”, “child” and “lad” all through previous books by various people and he’s older than Renarin. “Kid” just means much younger and also younger in the sense of inexperienced. Renarin is very immature for his age and probably looks much younger than his years due to his lack of physical built which is the exact opposite of Kaladin. Hence, Bridge 4 sees him as a youngster they need to care for whereas Kaladin is their leader.
 
On the matter of the 4 Men’s Story: I have been thinking some more on its significance… So while Taravangian’s speech made me think of Adolin, I think the better correlation would be the following:

– They find out the murderer was a member of the scouting teams.
– Bridge 4 are the scouting teams.
– One murderer, several innocents, no amount of interrogation gives results.

What will Dalinar do?

On Amaram: Is he really a villain? Or just misguided?

Spiritwalker51
7 years ago

Comment updated @@@@@ 11:51

@@@@@234  James Wilkinson.  This also makes me wonder if Shallan is the writer of Oathbringer.  From the Epigraphs, “I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.” Then as you pointed out, “A place beyond this room in the tower, beyond even shadesmar”.  I don’t know, my thoughts of who the writer is change as often as Shallan’s character personas do.  

On Shallan not being willing to reveal Veil to Adolin, well, everyone makes really valid points and I want to say something about that as well.  Given what we know about Shallan and her childhood, the abuse, the fear; feeling trapped as it appears all her siblings and even her step-mother did, is it really any wonder?  There is obviously a sense of personal power and control when we hide aspects of who we are from others.  Truthfully have you ever stood soul-naked before another human being?  I haven’t and never will.  You don’t give up your personhood to another being.  Revealing all of who you are is foolhardy. I am not saying that Shallan won’t eventually reveal her hidden personas, but that where she is right now she obviously feels very vulnerable.  I think it might be her next truth as well.

 

@@@@@243  Celebrinnen I thought that Adolin is 25 and Kal is 20. 

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7 years ago

@245 I personally think Amaram is a villian. I find him to be a fanatic, who doesn’t have any doubts, unlike Mr. T who at least questions whether the Diagram is still valid. Also Mr. T seems to take personal responsibility for what he’s doing, whereas Amaram is constantly justifying his actions, and his only regret seems to be (from his POV in WoR) that he lost Dalinar as a friend. There isn’t a huge distinction between them, but Amaram strikes me as worse.

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7 years ago

@245, yeah, that’s why I said it’s about perception :)

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Dryone
7 years ago

@@@@@ 245 Gepeto

About the 4 mans story’s significance:

What if before the recreance it was known that 75% of the Parshendi were bound to voidspren, and the rest bound to innocent sprens. Now some Radiant found a way to enslave all Parshendi at once. What should he do?

 

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Wildstorm
7 years ago

Omg what if it was a kandra! That would be so cool. Also, when is Jasnah and wit coming back in? Iz needz more witz!

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Wildstorm
7 years ago

Iz knoz grammarz 

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Jonah
7 years ago

@235.   Thanks! 

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7 years ago

Didn’t Brandon say that the sickness in the Purelake is a cold brought by worldhoppers?

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7 years ago

@249 I love that theory! It makes their whole history even more complicated and real

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Justin K
7 years ago

@249 Dryone – That’s a pretty good call. Judging by the tone and focus of the book though, I suspect it might be a bit more personal. Adolin and his murdering of Sadeas perhaps?

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7 years ago

So many comments!  I only got through the first 200 so far, but here we go:

Gepeto@44 – Re: Renarin & Adolin – There is no textual evidence of a chasm forming between the brothers.  Chapter 10 shows them as being quite close, and understanding each other in ways the average person does not. 

Re: Adolin & his Blade – I don’t see any textual proof that Adolin won’t revive his Blade; merely the opinion of the Stormfather regarding Oathbringer’s feelings towards Dalinar and Stormfather’s lack of knowledge on how to revive the spren.  The Stormfather is not omniscient.

Kreshamar@46 – I had a Looney Theory that the strata could channel/carry Stormlight through the Tower that I posted a month ago in the Chapter 13-15 section, comment 331.  I didn’t come up with some super battery comprised of thousands of gems, but it seems like this Looney Theory may actually pan out.  We’ll see…

StormItAllAgain@81 – I agree with you about relationships and progression.  Shallan isn’t at the point where she is ready to tell any of her inner circle about Veil (or any of her alternate personas).  I also agree with your opinion about the current status and possible reviving of Oathbringer (and Adolin’s sword). 

Lisamarie@84 – re: who imprisoned Re-Shephir – I mentioned Shalash during Aharietam as a possibility in my comment @35, and the more time I’ve had to think about it, the more likely I think it to be.  Assuming the Unmade are unleashed during every Desolation, then the “Final Desolation” is where Re-Shephir was last seen.  Factor that with Shalash being the Herald of the Lightweavers, and it is likely she was able to do something that Re-Shephir “presumed impossible” and had imprisoned her for “centuries upon centuries.”

Gepeto@111 – Re: Bridge 4 and Adolin – It seems your concern is that Bridge 4 didn’t see Adolin as one of them?  He isn’t one of them; neither is Dalinar, Shallan, Lyn, nor anyone else who isn’t a part of Bridge 4.  Just because Adolin isn’t a member of Bridge 4 doesn’t mean Adolin doesn’t belong with Renarin, or that some line has been drawn between them.

Artemis@127 – I am eagerly awaiting Dalinar to use Tension as well.  Not to mention (impatiently) waiting to see whatever it is that Malata can do!

Lord_Monch@166 – Yes, Taravangian is quietly sitting and waiting off to the side right now and I am wondering what his plan is.  When does he make his move?  Clearly, he has to take power away from Dalinar, but when exactly would that be?

Nerium@175 – I don’t think we’ve heard Syl, Stormfather or Pattern’s opinions on Shadrdplate yet.  Stormfather and Syl have demonstrated revulsion to their partners wielding Shardblades, but I can’t recall any issues they have with Plate.

Sheighlagh@179 – I cosign on your comment.  Adolin and Shallan are progressing at a reasonable rate.  To expect them to fully confide in one another and hold no secrets from the other is not a realistic representation. 

Wetlander@194 – I hope you and Lyndsey are both able to do Oathbringer; you make a fun pairing!  I definitely agree that you should be allowed a break before jumping in to another reread.  Personally I think January may even be too soon as having a few months to let the Oathbringer goodness marinate along the fandom may be warranted.  But whatever works best for you two!

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7 years ago

@244: Adolin just turned 23. For some reason, readers always age him.

@249: Ah good one. 

@256: For me, the textual evidence is having Renarin and Adolin’s interaction feel fake. It was obvious, within their one scene, Adolin was completely faking his reaction. Sure, he probably is genuinely happy for his brother, but he was not “happy” within this scene. I also felt it showed just how Renarin was moving away, changing, evolving and I personally certainly do not read them as “as close” as they used to be. Also, when Adolin has a panic attack next to the second murder, Renarin does not even noticed. In the past, when Adolin had emotional outbursts, Renarin was always the one to calm him down, now he was oblivious to the event.

Of course, everyone’s millage vary and I realize very few people read those characters the same way I do, but I honestly do not get where, in the text, it is highlighted they are closer than ever. They aren’t. They are both moving away from each other.

As for the Blade, I thought having Oathbringer react positively to Dalinar was foreshadowing for this specific Blade to be revived, not Adolin’s. Adolin is about the only character who hasn’t asked about the dead-Blade. He does not even consider his is even alive, if only by a small margin. 

About Bridge 4, my concern isn’t how Adolin is not one of them, it is more how Adolin is part of nothing. He’s like this character whom is around, doing stuff, but he never belongs. Like a faithful dog who does what is asked of him, but really develop anything more meaningful with people. My concern was also how Renarin is now one of them and since he is, he hasn’t been spending much time with Adolin (very few scenes in between the brothers since it happened). They also get to tease Renarin which isn’t something even Adolin does. People will always disagree with me on this, but Renarin is carving himself a new life and I am pleased for him, really, but the downside is Adolin is now more alone than ever.

I felt a line being drawn in between Adolin and Renarin. The healing chapter. The line was drawn there. Their relationship will never be the same, it can’t, too much changed.

I don’t know how realistic it is for Shallan to hold onto her secrets, but the passage which made me tick negatively is the one where she described something akin to a revulsion at the idea of telling Adolin, not about the murders, but just about Veil. This was troubling. Telling him about Veil shouldn’t be such a big step. It doesn’t feel like it should be one. As for Adolin, I will only state his complete lack of reaction to the events is not exactly what I would refer to as “realistic”. Not for a character having been very set onto the emotional state of things. It is not extraordinarily believable to me he would have absolutely NO reaction whatsoever, but again, this too is something most readers disagree with me. This has been a fail, for me, so far into the story: the fact Adolin’s story arc could end on such a cliffhanger and then we don’t get to read how he deals with it. Worst, it seems there is nothing to deal with. If this is the right reaction, then the story hasn’t succeeded into making me believe it is. Not yet anyway.

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7 years ago

Here is my theory about how somebody can revive a dead spren Shardblade.  It is based on the what Kaladin said Syl’s response to Kaladin’s comment that shouldn’t she be dead: “I was only as dead as your oaths, Kaladin.”  (WoR, pg. 1031, emphasis in original).

Reviving a dead spren Shardblade requires that a person who is broken (i.e. somebody who would be capable of having a Nahel bond with a spren) speak the Ideals, to such a level that would result in a non dead spren to form a Shardblade, associated with the dead spren associated order.  For Adolin’s Shardblade (we have WoB that it belonged to an Edgedancer), it would require somebody who is “broken enough” to have attracted a spren who he/she could bond via a Nahel bond.  While holding the Shardblade, this person would have to speak (and mean) the first three Edgedancer Ideals.

In this way, the spren (the Shardblade) was only as dead as the holder of the Shardblade’s oaths.  It does not matter that the original KR who swore the Ideals was long since dead.  The knew person will step into the shoes of the old KR.

I would appreciate people’s thoughts on this theory (both positive and negative).

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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Rivur
7 years ago

So, the unmade black thingamagig bonds itself to someone from the Ghost Bloods and becomes Odiums Champion. Didnt Dalinar say he saw the black veiled champion that was 11 people at once, or something like that. Seems like she just set it free to bond a human anew. Antagonist found.

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7 years ago

Spiritwalker51 @171 – “Since we are getting chapters  and selected parts of the story it limits what we learn till we get the book.” What’s being posted here is the entirety of Part 1. There are no “selected parts” and nothing left out (except some wonderful artwork, which is totally worth taking the time to go back through and find).

aenea22980 @176 – “I didn’t realize these chapter releases are missing the interludes.  Now when I get the book I’ll have a reason to start reading from the beginning, which should be fun.” By all means start at the beginning again, if you like, but (as noted by iguacufalls @198) the Interludes come between Parts. You’ll find the first set of Interludes in the book after Part One – right after Chapter 32, which will be posted next Tuesday. Nothing is being skipped except the artwork.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 260 Wetlandernw and @@@@@198 – ah good to know!  In that case I will continue reading from where these chapters end to maintain my lead on my friend who is not reading them.  Hah!

One thing on Shallan that I haven’t seen mentioned – I really think Adolin’s murder will bring them closer together.  In previous chapters she even thinks to herself that she doesn’t mind being around her men, who many were heinous murders before, since she is a heinous murderer herself.  She is in a truly unique situation to accept him if she figures out his secret or he reveals it.  I’m not entirely sure it would flow the other way for him, but I think he’d be much more open to accepting her with all of her spotted history now than he was pre-murder.  I think Adolin would still be in for exile or something else from Dalinar though, so I hope he never finds out.  (I cheered when Sadeus died, I was so sick of him.)

The other thing is that when I was reading Edgedancer, it was pretty obvious that her next ideal would have something to do with listening.  It was mentioned by her so much, she dwelled on it in her thoughts, and sure enough, next ideal, poof, listen to the ignored.  Now, Shallan is clearly going through a lot of changes, and what is she dwelling on?  Her personas, how she copes with things, who is she really?  I think her next truth will be something like “All of these personas are me” or “I don’t know who I truly am” or “Shallan is a lie”, etc.

I have no idea what Dalinar’s next ideal will be, I don’t think we’ve gotten enough of his inner thoughts yet, but I wish he’d give up hiding the honor sword and just carry it around.  Szeth bonded it somehow so there must be a way.  I just know he’s going to go back to the damn toilet and it’s going to be gone, like a bad horror movie when you’re screaming at the characters to not walk into the creepy house but they do anyway.  Just carry the damn sword around like a side sword already!

Oh, and after the Stormfather said Dalinar would be nearly a herald wielding that honor blade, I think the end of the front five will be Dalinar becoming the great champion fighting Odium’s champion, and they probably both die (and I cry and cry because Dalinar is my FAV) and the back five are then set up to defeat Odium for, well, a while, anyway.  He’s got to last a few more books after Stormlight Archive IIRC, so, boot up arse is probably it for this series. (Eg, gets kicked out of Roshar system and limps off elsewheres.)

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7 years ago

I think Sanderson may have done too many plot twists. These comment threads (to my perception) consist largely of readers trying to twist the plots in their heads, to the point of assuming anything the text says this early in the book has to be a trick, or at least foreshadowing a surprise, or a cool Cosmere reference.

Some of this stuff–most of this stuff–has to be face-value what is really happening. Sanderson is too good a writer to have nothing but plot twists!

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7 years ago

@258. AndrewHB – This is how I have been imagining this to unfold. It really makes the most sense to look back at how Kal and Sly broke apart and rebonded. 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@260, 261:

I’m definitely continuing, not starting over. I’ll probably reread the book at a more leisurely pace in 2018. Especially since Apocalypse Guard won’t be happening now :(

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7 years ago

@217

There is a difference between Amaram’s assertions about himself and his accusations towards Dalinar (as an aside, his assertions about Dalinar fail because he believes Dalinar to think that his past actions were justified; from Dalinar’s conversations with Wit we know this to not be the case). This is what I was referring to:

“I stand by what I was forced to do, Brightlord,” Amaram said, stepping forward. “The arrival of the Voidbringers only proves I was in the right. We need practiced Shardbearers. The stories of darkeyes gaining Blades are charming, but do you really think we have time for nursery tales now, instead of practical reality?”

His arguments here have nothing to do with his initial reasoning. Indeed, the scene containing the initial event heavily implies that had Kaladin answered differently as to why he didn’t want the shards, Amaram may not have done what he did. Amaram is constructing additional arguments as to why he did the right thing as he goes along.

Also, whilst I prefer the word ‘antagonist’ to ‘villain’, I think there’s an argument that Amaram falls under the definition of ‘villain’ in the books already. It’s his dogmatic certainty that leads me to suspect he could become under Odium’s sway. That’s not to say that he will do, merely that he has the personality type. We’ve already seen how adherence to dogmatic certainty gets used by Odium for his own ends – witness Szeth. However, given that Szeth could well be redeemed, perhaps the same could happen to Amaram, who knows?

Oathbringer wouldn’t scream to Dalinar because Dalinar unbounded it. I thus would assume Adolin’s Blade would hate him because he has bonded it. I am really starting to think Adolin reviving his Blade was another red hearing: Oathbringer sounded much closer to reawakening than Adolin’s Blade ever was.

That doesn’t seem to me to have any textual basis to support it. Here’s the relevant paragraphs:

“This one doesn’t scream as loudly as others. Why?”

It remembers your oath, the Stormfather sent. It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others.

The reason the Stormfather gives is that Oathbringer remembers Dalinar’s oath the day he won it, and (by implication) the oath he made and fulfilled the day he gave it up (that is, the oath he made to Kaladin and Bridge Four). Apart from the textual backing this makes far more sense for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Spren ‘die’ when their bound partner forsakes their oaths. Syl ‘died’ when Kaladin broke his oaths. It was not Kaladin giving up Syl that caused her to be reborn, but his finding the next ideal and speaking the oath contained within. That seems to require that fulfilling the type of oaths required by the Nahel bond is what can bring them back to life.

Secondly, and perhaps most obviously, by giving up a blade, the person who does so no longer has any way of influencing the blade. So they wouldn’t be able to help bring them back to life. Unless you wish to claim, I suppose, that that is the last act that the person has to do to resurrect the spren. But as that is clearly not what Dalinar has done, I’m pretty confident that that isn’t what you are suggesting.

Finally, the idea that Dalinar’s blade was closer than being revived than Adolin’s certainly has no textual backing given that no-one knows how close Adolin’s blade is to being revived. That is, after all, part of what I was musing upon in the statement you replied to.

(ETA) It’s probably also worth bearing in mind that Syl wanted to claim Kaladin in WoR. Despite the Stormfather trying to forcibly keep them apart, despite the fact Kaladin had nearly killed her, she didn’t care because of her affection for Kaladin. Does this not suggest that their rapport appears to have played a part in the matter?

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7 years ago

Since  Adolin/Shalan relationship being such a divisive issue amazes me, i have other important questions in mind , like can shardblades cut a planet in half with enough determination?

Jokes aside, i seriously am puzzled about thease stuff

What do we know exactly about the properties of a shardblade ( living one ), what are their limitations? We know they can change shape from sword to spear, fork or a shield, but to what extent? Spear is probably longer than a sword ( though a short spear is shorter than a zweihander ) but thinner, yet fork is a very tiny object compared to either. At first i thought that main thing would be consistency of mass or volume, but knife and fork shapes make it sound stupid. Is shapeshifting dependent on the power of target spren or on users stormlight? Can Syl turn into 100 foot long needle(being extremly thin), can stomrfather turn into gigantic sharWALL( if he stopped being an asshole)? and if he could, could he make the lower part of the wall sharp and slice a huge chasm into the continent?

Sanderson usually has very strict rules/limitations on his magic systems( in cosmere at least) so i am very curious why Sharblade limitations havent come up yet

 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@217, 265:

Well, Wit at least seems to think Amaram is worse than Sadeas. And Wit/Hoid is about as close to authorial intrusion as Brandon comes.

I don’t agree that either are “villains” though. They are antagonists, but not villains. Sadeas is just a dude. He’s no worse or better than the other high princes. He just never wised up to the coming apocalypse so he kept playing the wrong game, fighting the previous battle. He wasn’t a good dude. But by Alethi lighteye standards, he was just a dude.

Amaram, on the other hand, murdered his own men in cold blood because he legitimately thought it was the right thing to do. And he has zero regrets. Its not a justification. He actually came to that conclusion, and he legitimately thinks this makes him the same as Dalinar. Only a sociopath could come to those conclusions. Amaram is scary. But he’s not opposed to Dalinar and his goals, at least not yet. He’s the ally you wish was somewhere else.

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John Dickerson
7 years ago

@@@@@ 65:

Renarin’s other surge is Illumination. the same as Shallan.

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7 years ago

@267 To some extent, that’s why I said I preferred the word ‘antagonist’.

I disagree about Amaram not needing justifications, though. His claim that the return of the Voidbringers only shows he made the right decision is a justification. I’m not sure how else it could be described. 

Or at the very least, it was the meaning of the word ‘justification’ I was using. It occurs to me you may be using one of its other definitions.

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7 years ago

266. zzladeii  You have to remember that in the cosmere, everything is connected to the Three Realms, the Physical, the Cognitive and the Spiritual.  Spren usually inhabit the Cognitive Realm, since they are living concepts.  Shards of Adonalsium mostly inhabit the Spiritual Realm.  Both spren and Shards can intrude into the Physical realm, as the spren seem to regularly do on Roshar.  Shards can also extend their essence into the Physical Realm, as can be seen in the Mistborn series with larasium and atium being what was called the “god metals” made of the condensed essence of the mostly spiritual Shard.  It is my opinion that the Honorblades, as have been described as being forged from the essence of Honor, are made of a metal that could theoretically be called “tanavastium”. 

That said, it would stand to reason that a Shardblade, be it living or dead, is also the Physical Realm condensation of the spren’s essence, drawn on the power of the spiritual link to the Shardbearer.  As has been humorously mentioned earlier, the “Sylblade” could then be made of a metal called “sylium”.

To get back to your comment on limitations, I think the only limits to the Shardblade’s physical manifestation would be the cognitive ability to conceive of the shape and dimension, and the power in the spiritual connection between the spren and holder.  This would be why dead Shardblades don’t change, since the spiritual link is barely there.

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

@269:

I was using it meaning “to convince yourself that you are in the right.” Sadeas, on the other hand, tells himself lies and half-truths to do the things he does, and we get a sense of regret from his PoV, and also a sense of the fact that he’s not completely sure he’s making the right decisions.

I think that’s why Wit said that Amaram was already what people like Sadeas aspired to be.

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Dryone
7 years ago

@266

There’s a WoB on that:

If you cut deep enough with a shard blade, you’d hit the planet’s molten core, and that might be a experience you should not be wishing for. 

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7 years ago

afterthought@265: Note that the sword is “Oathbringer”. Of course it likes people such as Dalinar, who keep their oaths, more than other people!

Fijjit@270: Either Spiritual or Cognitive entities seem to need to bond to a living creature to be able to act in the Physical Realm. Thus the Shards of Adonalsium must have a vessel (Leras, Tanavast, etc.), the spren must bond humans, Aons must bond humans. Before humans arrived spren used to bind Listeners, but apparently and for whatever reason it wasn’t as complete a bond. Spren also bond with Greatshells, but this doesn’t make them sapient.

It’s an interesting question whether a Cognitive Shadow like Kelsier could bond a living human and intervene in the Physical Realm, especially since he did apparently intervene to save the inhabitants of the other continent on Scadrial. Hmm ….

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StormItAllAgain
7 years ago

Shard weapons Definitely have to be limited to more than just the imagination, cause I would just put a big u in my blade just as someone was about to block my strike and swish, spine severed…. oh shoot that swing is going to be just short, gogo gadget extend a blade and I win… there are well defined laws, we just have not seen everything yet.

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7 years ago

@@@@@ 217 Gepeto
Well most of the planned flashback characters probably have a lot of interesting secrets in their past, so I really hope this trend will continue.

And yes, I’ve read that Bondsmiths don’t have shardblades, but in my comment I was first trying to clarify a typo (I think?) by AndrewHB, and then I was speculating as to why Bondsmiths will not have shardplate, since the Stormfather pretty much said Dalinar will have neither.

@@@@@243 Celebrinnen
Doesn’t Kaladin even say at one point that Renarin is older than him? But Kaladin is very good at taking charge, and also very good at frowing seriously, so I don’t think anyone is surprised people give him so much authority :).

@@@@@253 birgit
Yeah, it’s the common cold. :) But I guess that’s terrifying in a world without (m)any airborne viruses/common illnesses (due to high investiture just floating around the air).

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7 years ago

I can’t wait for somebody to examine those mosaics of the Heralds in a more leisurely fashion, become scandalised with bare safehands of the women and with the majority of them being dark-eyed – more “heresy”, but most importantly, to recognize Nale, Taln, and, possibly, Kalak and Chana (if she is Liss). I mean, the likelyhood is very high that the mosaics were made by the Lightweavers who have actually met the Heralds, no? And Nale was both very much present at the high table during the fateful feast – chatting with Elokhar, etc. and very recognizable.

I have also become increasingly convinced that Dalinar shouldn’t claim the title of a king of Urithiru. It would be breaking of his vow to himself in the last flashback to date and it would be very counter-productive for his efforts to unite other nations – even with the visions.

When will somebody spill the beans about Dalinar not being the first recepient of Stormfather’s visions? Was Gavilar the only previous one, or were there more? If Tezim is not Ishar, after all, could he have been driven mad by them? And if he is, it would be a delicious scene when Dalinar visits him in a vision… unfortunately here is rather down the list of monarchs who are going to be to be so honored.

Finally, I really, really hope that Dalinar tells Elokhar about his own history with the Thrill and how it affected his relationship to both his father and him and led to the vow to never become king. And that he shares the visions with his nephew too – and possibly with the Alethi Highprinces and even Mr T. Not to mention with his Radiants, Adolin and Navani. Yes, they have read/wrote/heard the transcripts, but seeing with their own eyes could be very helpful and lead to new avenues of exploration and inquiry.

 

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7 years ago

Gepeto @256 – Re: Adolin & Renarin – If your textual evidence is your opinion that Adolin and Renarin’s interaction felt fake, then you have no textual evidence.  How/when is it “obvious” that Adolin faked his reaction?  What part of that scene clearly shows this?

Adolin did not have a “panic attack” when the second murder was discovered; he was likely shocked and surprised, but there was no evidence of Adolin experience traditional symptoms related to panic attacks: feeling dizzy, fainting, having chills, having chest pains, having difficulty breathing.  Also, Shallan notes that Renarin is taking note of Adolin’s behavior at the time (she notes Renarin staring at Adolin “with unblinking sapphire eyes” and that Renarin “seemed to know something she didn’t.”).  Textual evidence does not support your opinion that Renarin is not paying attention to Adolin when the second murder is discovered; it (arguably) refutes such a stance.

Finally your statement “…I honestly do not get where, in the text, it is highlighted they are closer than ever…” is a straw-man; I didn’t say that (and a quick scan doesn’t show any other commenter saying that either).    The point of contention is whether the brothers are becoming distant, and there is still no textual evidence that supports that point.  You are welcome to your opinion/perspective about the brothers’ relationship, but there does not seem to be in-book proof that supports your opinion, merely your interpretation of benign details.

Re: Adolin’s Blade – The statement “Adolin is about the only character who hasn’t asked about the dead-Blade” is factually inaccurate and easy to disprove.  Every named Stormlight Archive character but a few (Dalinar, Kaladin and …Shallan maybe?) have not asked about the dead-Blades in the text.  Additionally, Adolin has consistently been shown to have a bond with his Blade and treat it with reverence and respect.  Also, what afterthought@265 said.

Carl@262 – Yeah, we do tend to read into a lot of what Brandon presents; that’s fair criticism.  However, I think Brandon’s history has contributed to that, as he likes to drop in a lot of information that becomes relevant later on in the story.

@266 & @272 – Re: Shardblades – You would probably need insane amounts of force to shove a Shardblade from the crust all the way through to the planet’s core, but yeah, once you hit that location all kinds of bad things could happen.

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7 years ago

Elle @275, yes, it must be the frowning! :D

Jokes aside, I actually checked before posting and while Stormlight Archive Wiki claims they are both born in 1154, Coppermind (which I trust more) states that Renarin was born indeed in 1154 and Kaladin late 1153, so if anything, it’s still the opposite, even if by a mere margin. But exactly as you and also Gepeto @245 point out, it’s about the bearing and the impression you leave to others, and I think also a great deal about what you have gone through – I believe all your experiences (especially if they include running bridges and fighting for survival and leading men) change you and the way you behave and also hence how others perceive you.

Honestly, I’m not even sure why this particular time caught my eye as it did (I know Teft has called Kal “lad” etc; I thought that perhaps it was because it wasn’t done in a dialogue but in narration, but now checking, Kaladin was referred to as the boy the same way (Zahel interlude)). But for some reason, it did, and it really made me consider how it’s all in the eye of the viewer.

Huh. I really did not intend to spend so much comment-time on this, but much ado about nothing, as is so usual for me. I will shut my big mouth now :)

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7 years ago

@278 Celebrinnen
I was actually basing my comment on something Kaladin says in WoR chapter 5 (I’m so glad I have an e-reader):

“Kaladin wasnt sure what to make of Renarin. The youth – he might have been older than Kaladin, but sure didn’t look it – wore spectacles and walked after his brother like a shadow.”

So now I’m wondering how some of the ages of characters are calculated.

But yeah, I think characters like Teft, Zahel and Dalinar just call everyone under 30 ‘son’ and ‘lad’, but when it happens in the narration it feels like it’s a more ‘authoritative/objective voice’ than it is during characters’ (inner) monologue.

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@270 Fijjit

Holy cow! Until your comment I had never made the connection between the name of the shardbearer -Ati- with the name of the metal made of his essence/power, ATIum. Mind= Blown.

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@208 Elle: Awesome thoughts about the cousin spren forming shardplate, and that there are 9 unmade, one for each order of KR except the bondsmiths because there is no cousin spren for them.

It bothered me that there are 9 shadows and one champion of Odium, but using the above theory as a seed, I think I may have figured out who Odium’s champion will be. We know that there are only ever 3 bondsmiths at one time and we also know from a WoB (whited out) that it’s no coincidence that the number of their order matches the number of shards in the Rosharian system. Could Odium’s champion, perhaps, be the bondsmith of Odium himself? And further, could this champion of Odium be the one that unites the 9 unmade, who pulls towards him or herself the people/listeners who have bonded the unmade (perhaps they, like the KR need to speak dark inversions of the ideals to bond with these splinters of Odium to become Void Knights). There’s a perfect symmetry to this theory  that I think makes it highly plausible. The text from the in world book, WoR, in Chapter 51 of WoR says:

In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for executing one of their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy’s baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace.

Could this perhaps be historical precedent of a Radiant becoming a Void Knight? Also, thinking more about this, here is another bit from the in world WoR book (from Chapter 58):

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

This suggests a highly speculative theory that actually gives me goosebumps, what if Melishi bonded Odium and used his powers as a bondsmith to trap the 9 unmade. This would suggest that Dalinar might become both Odium’s champion and through a willing sacrifice of himself, also the one that defeats Odium’s champion. This would, i think, definitely make him the author of the Epigraph.

If this theory is right, the place to look for the as of yet unbonded Bondsmith of Odium would be on the other side of the Moral Divide that is clearly in evidence in this book. Anyone who fails the 4 hanged men test and incorrectly chooses that the ends justify the means (anyone who would side with the Grand Inquisitor instead of the resurrected Jesus in The Brothers Karamazov) is highly suspect for being able to bond an Unmade, and possibly becoming odium’s champion (this includes Amaram, Taravangian and Venli).

All just speculation, but I think that there might be something to this. Only 11 more days to wait, freaking awesome!

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Whitespine
7 years ago

On the subject of ages…

Either people on Roshar age more slowly than people on Earth do (different biological process or something) or Brandon Sanderson has actually made kind of a big mistake with his calendar and ages in general. There was a good post on brandonsanderson.com about the date system and it explained that a year on Roshar was 500 days long.

-tangent, on the subject of seconds from a few weeks ago (when Shallan said “just a sec”) I saw in a passage in WoR that Sigzil was timing Kaladin’s stormlight usage in seconds… so seconds are well known even before the watch comment later in Oathbringer.

Ok, back to business. Anyway, to point is that if Rosharian age the same way that we do, then Kaladin and Rennarin – being 23 ish are more like 33 year-olds on Earth. So, not exactly youths either way. So everyone is much older than they seem. A 50 year-old is more like a 70 year-old person on Earth, 73 = 100, etc. Even Lift, being 13 is actually basically 18. So with her period having just started, either she was really, really malnourished with so little body fat to delay puberty significantly (that happens IRL, btw), or Brandon overlooked that. Basically, I have a feeling that while the 500 day year was a cool idea and makes the Rosharan calendar cool, logical, and 10 based, Brandon didn’t take into account how that would change what ages correspond to. The most dramatic differences being when talking about children.

Of course, the easy out is just to say that humans on Roshar age more slowly than humans on Earth…. but something interesting to think about.

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@282 Whitespine: Very nice analysis, but I think the thing to remember is that ages are correlated to the repeating cycles of the Weeping. A year is the time a planet takes to make one full orbit of it’s star, but this could be something that happens in parrallel and on a different time scale then the Highstorm/weeping cycle. The weepings occur at seemingly regural intervals and this cycle could more closely approximate one year on Earth. This hasn’t been discussed in the books, as far as I can tell, so my inclination was always to assume that because Rosharan’s refer to ages in terms of weeping that this is a different measure of time than a Rosharan year (why would they have two terms if one would suffice). Also season’s are incredibly short on Roshar, there is definitely something unusual about Roshar’s orbit around it’s sun, but I think this something we just don’t have enough information on at this point (unless there are WoB on this that I haven’t seen).

Just my two cents, really good analysis though.

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@283 hoiditthroughthegrapevine

Good point. That made me want to look it up. According to the Coppermind:

The Weeping is a time during the Rosharan year that marks the end of a 500 day year.[1] The Weeping consists of four weeks of continuous rain with a single clear day in the middle known as Lightday, which signifies the Roshar New Year.

So, it does look like the weeping only occurs once per year and they use it to signify the end/start of the year. Good catch on them sometimes describing their age in terms of weepings, though. It is interesting they do that. I feel like I have heard of cultures – maybe just in other fantasy books – where people track less their specific birthday and just how many “winters” old they are or something similar. I wonder if this fits that mold.

Either way, I agree that Roshar has weird season, weather, flora/fauna, etc. So if they did “age” differently than humans on Earth I could see ways for that to be justified – which is why I see it as an easy way to fix this apparent oversight. I just think it may be an oversight up to now. And if not… then I need to reimagine how old I picture these characters. :)

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7 years ago

@282 – I believe Rosharan days are 20 hours long.  The coppermind states: “Although the Rosharan year is 500 days long, these days are shorter than on Earth and a Rosharan year is equivalent to 1.1 Earth years.“ Link is here

Edit: Also, Word of Peter here from 17th Shard.

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7 years ago

Why can’t I copy and paste into the comment box? Normally that works.

it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

Did a Bondsmith somehow bond the Unmade to the corresponding Heralds and that is why they are corrupted?

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Whitespine
7 years ago

@285 KiManiak

Thanks! I wasn’t aware of the 20 hour part. That clears it up greatly.

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Mark22
7 years ago

While Pattern is off looking for Adolin, Shallan appears to black out.  I wonder if she could be having a repressed personality take over when Pattern is away.  This personality could be who is writing in her notebook.  Have there been other times when they have been separated where this could have happened?  

King T seems to be trying to influence Dalinar.  The Diagram says if he goes the way of the peacemaker, he needs to be killed.  T. could be trying to see which way he is leaning, or trying to push him toward the warlord path.

I don’t expect Jasnah to show up at Urithiru until she finds a way to deal with the Ghostbloods.  They were almost successful in killing her, and I don’t expect her to live and let live about that.  

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nerium
7 years ago

@273 Nice theory, but the Stormfather presents one problem, since he doesn’t seem to have been bonded to anyone for centuries following the Last Desolation. Another problem would be the Returned, since, if I remember my Warbreaker lore correctly, they are Slivers that have reanimated a dead body. And what about Skaze, we see no evidence of them being bonded. And then there’s Nightblood, though he might be a different case. 

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7 years ago

So… Shardblade questions.  If you could keep a shardblade pointing down, and affixed a sufficient weight to the hilt, would it keep falling downward until it hit the core of the planet?

Second – shardblades very very sharp.  Do they have an incredibly fine edge?  How fine does a shardblade edge have to be to get that super sharpness?  Lift’s fork had it – does Oathbringer’s fish hook?  The flamey bits on Gavilar’s sword?  Adolin’s sword’s “crystal formation”?  How hard are these things to handle?

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Tommy
7 years ago

Last week we saw that “Talanor took a Blade.” Did I miss the discussion about who this is? Isn’t that the name of the City Lord from Rift who used to own Oathbringer?

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7 years ago

@258: Actually, Brandon to revive a dead-Blade saying the oaths is not enough: something more need to happen. Of course, the “something more” has had readers theorize on what it may be. Many have devised a way using out of world magic to resurrect the Blades. I am not big on those theories as they sound very mechanical, but who knows?

@261: I personally doubt Adolin will be exiled. Readers have theorize on Dalinar dying for such a long time it makes me feel it won’t happen anytime soon, but who knows?

@265: I am personally not convinced Amaram is a villain. An antagonist to our heroes, yes, but a villain? I am not so sure. Dalinar himself argued Shards should go to the best qualified soldiers, he was unnerved at not seeing people not yield their Blades to the king, so the king could decide whom is worthy. What Amaram did is not so far from what Dalinar has been preaching: he took the Shards from men he felt couldn’t carry them. Giving the morality on Roshar, I am not sure it makes him a villain or if he is one, he is not worst than Dalinar whom slaughtered his own men, for no valid reason he couldn’t control himself.

On the Blade, this is just me musing. When I read the passage it gave me the sense Brandon was foreshadowing its revival and not Adolin’s Blade. We have been so set on thinking it will be him, it might as well not be. Just because Adolin talks to his Blade and acts in ways some of us feel would fit within the Edgedancers does not mean it will happen. It just means readers liked the theory and the character.

@266: The beauty of Brandon’s work is it appeals to a wide variety of readers: while some are interested in the intrinsic working of the magic system, others find shipping very interesting. One does not exclude the other and the fact Brandon managed to speak to both crowd is rather impressive.

@277: I don’t why it is my statement of Adolin and Renarin drifting apart is causing such a commotion. I have used ample YMMV, IMHO and words which clearly stated I was voicing my personal thoughts. The very first post I made, within this thread, started by “Here are my thoughts”. Thoughts. 

However, when it comes to character analysis, the textual evidence will never be downright obvious. You will always have to read in between the lines, the decipher the none-said, especially for a character such as Adolin whom doesn’t have many viewpoints. Hence, when it comes to his character, we always have to look into what is not said.

Within the scene which interests me, Adolin is choking back sobs thinking abut Sureblood moments before Renarin arrives. Then, he is all smiles, all cheers, all happiness for Renarin and while those feelings are certainly genuine, they made the interaction feel fake, to me, because Adolin is not being completely genuine. True friendship, real deep friendship is supposed to have friends know when the other is not feeling right, they are supposed to share thoughts thoughts, but within the Adolin/Renarin relationship those only go one way. As such, while both brothers certainly love each other, I definitely felt the brothers were starting to drift apart. Renarin is part of a new world, he will save the world, he is something Adolin will never be, he is standing next to his father: things change and because things change, so will their relationship.

On the matter of the “panic attack”, did I need to recall you we aren’t reading Adolin’s viewpoint here? Hence, whatever physical reaction he might have had is completely lost. What we do know is he stood still, mouth aghast, wild eyes, mumbling to himself and being unresponsive. Was it a “proper panic attack”, I don’t know and quite frankly, the terminology is not important. What is important is Adolin is having a very visible outward reaction and Renarin, Renarin whom was starring directly at Adolin, either did not notice (impossible as it was very outward) or didn’t see fit to intervene or was too lost within his own thoughts to do anything. Which ever answer is not important, what is important is the reaction diverged from the ones we have seen within previous books and as such I do think it highlights a distance forming.

Like it or hate it, but I don’t personally read the brothers as being “close”. Not as “close” as they were depicted within the previous books. 

Adolin is the only “character of importance having had the occasion to question it” not to ask about the dead-Blade. He knows and yet it does nothing to him. His lack of reaction (once again) is another aspect of his character which makes me doubt Brandon is going down this road with him. Remember, Adolin is a foil and as such, his chapters are meant to supplement other characters chapters. None of it is meant for him. Blade revival is not very probable, not from him.

 

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7 years ago

Quick observation: It appears that Shallan has been very efficient with Stormlight consumption since “The Girl Who Looked Up” experience.  In these chapters, she appears to use Stormlight to both maintain some illusions for awhile, and then create a large number of illusions for a shorter period of time, all without mentioning any concern in depleted Stormlight levels.  

Shallan is able to, in succession:1) create/maintain the Veil persona for awhile in the Breakaway market; 2) Stormlight-sprint from the market through multiple hallways/tunnels/levels tailing the Shadow; 3) create the Shallan-over-Veil illusion for Adolin & Bridge Four; 4) maintain the illusion through the slow, long descent down the steps and throughout the battle; 5) glow like a beacon during the withdrawal from Re-Shephir’s darkness; 6) create and maintain a “glowing, radiant force” to protect the bridgemen during the withdrawal from Re-Shephir’s darkness, then re-direct the “force” to attack during the advance on Re-Shephir; 7) create and maintain the dozen images of the “Shallan persona force” to clear a way to Re-Shephir so that Shallan could touch her; 8) (assumedly) maintain all of her illusions during her Cognitive Realm confrontation with Re-Shephir; and finally, 9) still maintain the illusion of Shallan-over-Veil (including her havah!) after Re-Shephir had been defeated. 

That was a lot of Lightweaving, and it doesn’t appear that Shallan had to absorb additional Stormlight from anywhere else even once.  Am I the only one to find that noteworthy?

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7 years ago

hoiditthroughthegrapevine @281: The only problem with your theory is that in the epigraph in WoR describing the Bondsmith, it says “Their spren was…”; i.e., only one spren for all of the Bondsmiths (“was” rather than “were”).  Of course, the in-world WoR is explicitly hearsay (per the in-world author), so this might just be a mistake or a misunderstanding.

Having now found the WoB you referred to, it does seem to be canon that other spren can make Bondsmiths.  So maybe historically they all had the same one but that was an accident of history rather than a necessity…

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7 years ago

Gepeto@292 – As I have said, you are welcome to your opinion/perspective; indeed YM may (and often, does) V greatly from mine from time to time and I think that’s cool as I am an advocate for diversity of thought, opinions, perspectives. 

A number of commenters here have provided some incredible and unusual opinions or speculation, and they’ve been interesting to read.  However, if someone provides factually inaccurate information as the basis for or main support of that opinion, then I also have no problem with anyone pointing out that the opinions are based on factual inaccuracies, which was my intent @277. 

If you are choosing to embellish for effect to support your speculation, that’s fine (although it may be potentially misleading to the non-discerning reader).  However, your previous comments read (to me, at least, which is why I asked for clarification) that you were presenting your opinions as supported by objective evidence, when in reality you seem to be backing them via highly subjective interpretations of text.  For example, in my opinion, claiming that Adolin had a panic attack and Renarin didn’t notice is not supported by objective evidence; it requires the reader to infer quite a bit.  

But I don’t see a need to go back and forth on this anymore; we clearly disagree on Adolin yet again :-)  Part of the fun of this process.

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@285 KiManiak and Whitespine, thanks for the clarification. Pretty awesome, Roshar revolves once every 20 hours, and orbits it’s sun once every 500 days. Which brings up the interesting question of what relative time measure is meant by “just a sec”? Obviously the Rosharan units are expressed in Earth relative terms, so that would mean that the Rosharan day has 72,000 earth seconds as opposed to our 86,400 in a day. So when a certain character says just a sec would the hearer of said phrase be expecting a shorter delay than a similar hearer on Earth? Mildly diverting, I would say.

@286 birgit: Interesting… I’ve also been thinking of the 10 fools a lot, this is a purely speculative theory as most of mine are, but wouldn’t that be great if the 9 heralds that broke their part of the Oathpact were acting like their 10 fools counterpart. There is only one mention of a specific fool in WoR (to my knowledge) who is condemmed to a life of always trying to climb up a hill of sand, but wouldn’t that be rad if the heralds relegated themselves to living out a life opposite of their ideal by breaking their oath? Like Nale, his crusade to kill all of the budding Radiants, maybe he is Law without mercy or simply the perversion of justice, and Shalash maybe she is criticism without enjoyment, etc. etc. Interesting to speculate.

@290 staridweller: I don’t know the canon answers to this, but this is what I have always thought about shardblades. They are made from Spren which cannot exist in the physical realm without some kind of connection with a human host. The power to influence non-sentient material in the physical realm comes from their continued existence in the cognitive realm. It’s not a matter of sharpness, perse. Say a shardbearer cuts a chair, it’s not a matter of a physical property of the blade so much as an extension of the idea of cutting to the idea of the chair and resultant outcome is a chair that thinks it no longer has any legs. I think that this has some great potential for exploration, would it be possible to have a Monkey King Sun WuKong like Staff of Heaven, that as you mention could be extended to ridiculous lengths and still have the same effect as a shard fork? Lift could steal a lot of people’s dinner with this. Also the stormfather turning into a giant shard-plow and destroying an enemy encampment with the passing of a high storm was a very interesting idea. It would be great to know more about the limitations/mechanics of how shardblades and sprenblades work.

@294 bad_playupus: Good catch on the WoR quote implying that bondsmiths bond a singular spren. But it’s implied that there are 3 bondsmiths and that intentionally mirrors the fact that there are 3 shards. I think we are going to have a bondsmith that bonds the Nightwatcher, and another bondsmith that bonds an Odium spren that is not one of the unmade. The stormfather is far from a normal spren, but it just feels off to me to have a limited set of 3 bondsmiths bonding a single spren.  

On another note, hopefully Oathbringer has answers to questions about Stone Shamanism, the nature of the shard Cultivation, and what is to become of the 7 honor blades. Holy crap this series is so GOOD!

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@286 birgit: Just looked this up on the 17th shard, there is a very interesting theory laid out with quite an impressive degree of scholarship regarding the 10 heralds becoming the 10 fools, here’s the link:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/59472-the-10-heralds-the-desolations-and-the-10-fools-or-my-3rd-crazy-theory

Ughh, had to hand type that link (stupid copy and paste not working).

Pretty freaking awesome theory though.

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7 years ago

@@@@@273. Carl   While I am sure there is a lot of evidence to lead you to assume that, we also have some suggesting that a “holder” is not strictly necessary for a Shard to manifest on the Physical Realm.  Namely the shardpools on Sel.  Both Aona and Skai are dead, Devotion and Dominion are Splintered.  Yet the shardpool above Elantris remains.

On Roshar, we know there is at least one shardpool in the Horneater Peaks, but without more information, we can’t say if it belonged to Honor or to Cultivation.  We also know that the Honorblades were created out of condensed Honor, yet they remain after Tanivast was killed and Honor was Splintered.

In any case, I won’t argue that it is probably easier for a Shard to manifest with a holder, I don’t think we know enough to completely rule the ability to manifest without a holder out. 

Braid_Tug
7 years ago

@290:  Shardblades are sharp. The hilts are there to protect the wielder’s hand. It would stop a blade from falling into the dirt beyond the hilt.  

But the idea of the blades cutting like they do is still odd to me.  

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7 years ago

Taravangian is essentially arguing a Consequentialist ethic in his conversation with Dalinar.

Consequentialism as a framework is really only appropriate during collectivistic decision making for short-term periods of time in which each individual voluntarily signs on for that time-period (in and of itself based in a Virtue ethic since the one’s participating are sacrificing their privileges for the greater good of society).

Consequentialism has too many issues to be used as a foundational system for decision making because it is so easily compromised by the self-interests of the one or many making the decisions, whether that individual or committee falls pray to emotivism (personal preference) or egoism (self-preservation or preferential treatment).

Additionally consequentialism is not omniscient, evaluating secondary and tertiary effects are simply not possible for the decision maker. In light of the example during their discussion Taravangian is underestimating wide scale sociological factors, like the disquiet such a decision can make in his constituents should they “imagine” themselves in a similar situation that can stifle motivation to civic duty creating a culture of silence in reporting criminal acts.

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7 years ago

@252 I hope that “actually,” by the way, didn’t imply that you would typically be NOT brilliant lol

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7 years ago

@257 Gepeto your thoughts on Adolin/Renarin rather parallel my own. I was never under the impression that the brothers were “close,” even back in earlier books. It seemed that Adolin would have his moments of thoughtfulness and appreciation; but they were usually when something had gone wrong or Renarin was being threatened or some general tragedy had been recently diverted. . . . Idk. My memory isnt the clearest (I REALLY need to read WOR again. I actually began the series with WOR because my friend found it in his garage and I needed stuff to read. Then I went back and read the first one twice. Maybe its actually GOOD i started with WOR because in my opinion it was so much more engaging and definitely pulled me into the story, albeit there were confusions)

Anyway, it wasn’t like just out of the blue Adolin would ever express all this care and tenderness towards his brother. There was a definite bond between them but it felt more compelled by Renarin’s exclusion from society and the fact that they were brothers. I would agree that they seem to be distancing now, and Renarin is finding deeper bits of his identity while Adolin is, as you say, just sort of. . . . there

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nerium
7 years ago

and others regarding Amaram

Firstly, I would argue, and am certain that most criminal law experts would agree, that premeditated murder is worse than one committed in a moment of uncontrolled rage. 

Secondly, I would certainly not disagree with a notion that Dalinar WAS, in fact, quite the villain in his youth. Nor does he make excuses for his past, though we, as readers, might, knowing the twisting influence of the Thrill.

Thirdly, the strength in your convictions does not disqualify you from being evil. To invoke Godwin’s law, I’m sure that historical persons like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the like thought that their actions were justified in the name of the greater good. If you refuse to call Amaram and Taravangian, hell, even Szeth, evil, I see no reason why the same excuses could not be extended to the butchers of our own history.

Finally, I do not think we’ll see Amaram redeem himself, simply because the redemption arc is likely reserved for too many of our other characters. We already know that Dalinar has changed from a bloodthirsty monster of a man into someone truly honorable, Szeth is probably on a redemption arc, so is Nale. We’ll see about Moash and I would even extend the possibility of  redemption for Taravangian because of his more compassionate moments, likely followed quickly by his death for a more dramatic effect. Including Amaram in this would make the story more repetitive, and frankly he does not strike me as someone willing to bend and/or change his ways.

But that’s just my two cents.

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Bridge4
7 years ago

Am I the only person who ships kaladin and syl?

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

CireNaes@300:

Additionally consequentialism is not omniscient, evaluating secondary and tertiary effects are simply not possible for the decision maker.

Let me add in real life to this statement. because the Diagram does predict secondary and tertiary (and beyond) consequence) with stunning accuracy, akin to the mathematical predictions of the Observers in Fringe.

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7 years ago

@275: I am thinking the flashback, within the second arc, may serve a different purpose. The idea of Renarin currently having a secret worthy of a 10 chapters story does not really hold the road for me. Hence I have made up my mind his flashbacks may tackled another part of his life, yet to happen. Same with Lift, so while there may still be “a secret” it may not be one within the current past, but the future past.

@295: Honestly, I was surprised to see so many people picked up on my initial commentary made within my very first post. This first post was made right after reading the chapters and it testified of my very first undigested opinions onto the new chapters. I never thought so many people would caught on it.

I think we are currently running into an issue of what we both consider to be “textual evidence”. I personally feel “textual evidence” are textual reference which allows me to craft theories and to fill in the holes the story has left. In the scene you are referencing, Adolin is having an outward reaction. As I said within my previous post, whether we call it a “panic attack” or not is not really important, what mattered to me is his reaction was very visible. Within the same scene, Renarin is said to be looking straight at Adolin and yet he sees nothing. He takes no action. What conclusion we can draw from this might differ from one reader to the next, but this scene has differed from previous scenes where Adolin has had outward reactions.

Of course, I understand our perspective are very different one from another and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. For all I know, you are right and I am guilty of reading too much into it. It may be because I want Brandon to write an Adolin centrism arc, I am guilty of trying to find every single element susceptible to pan out into a good one. Reality is there probably won’t be an Adolin centrism arc as his character is a foil, not really a character so to speak completed with decent fleshing out, feelings and reactions to events.

I will however try to be more mindful with using the term “textual evidence” within the future. I agree it may be confusing when I do this.

@302: I did not read Adolin and Renarin as being as close as they pretend to be either. Many elements within their relationship ticked me off. For instances, Adolin states nobody knows him better than Renarin and the story seems to present the brothers as the “best of friends” and yet neither of them is actually confiding into the other.

Renarin spent WoR secretly bonding Glys, becoming a Radiant and having a Shardblade screaming in his head. Not once did he try to talk to Adolin about his problems and once he finally decides to disclose himself, whom does he talk to? Dalinar. It seems to me, if he really were this close to Adolin, he would have felt comfortable telling him. Even if it takes time for him to accept it, really close friends do tell themselves harsh things, they do know when their friend is being affected by something. They get it out.

On his side, Adolin textually (and yes, this is real textual evidence) says he always tries to act confident and sure of himself in front of Renarin such as not to worry him. Friends, real best friends, do not wear a mask one with another. They do not hide their real feelings, they do not play a role and if they attempt at playing a role, their friend sees right through it. Adolin is not also confiding is growing unease at his inability to develop relationship to Renarin, he just pretends it does not get to him.

As such, I never read the Adolin/Renarin relationship as “best friends”. They aren’t because they aren’t sharing the things which do matter to them one with another which isn’t to say they don’t have a good relationship, it is just not a very close one. My perception is the Adolin/Renarin relationship revolves around Adolin being the older, forever supportive, protective brother and Renarin being the younger, sick, disabled, looking up to him brother. It seems to be entirely defined by these circumstances and their entire interactions are geared towards it. Adolin is always supportive and protective next to Renarin, Renarin is always unsure of himself and unable to assume himself in front of Adolin. Always.

But Adolin is not tackling, with Renarin, what it means to be a Radiant. Renarin is not confiding into Adolin over how it stresses him out to be asked to become a leader, something he clearly isn’t. Renarin is not asking what it means to Adolin for all of them to be Radiants (nobody actually bothered to ask him). They aren’t sharing. Within their one interaction, it purely defined by how their relationship has been so far: big brother next to younger brother. 

How will they evolve as the circumstances change? How will their relationship change as the story unfolds? I do not know, but I do think it will not be the same because Renarin will not stay the “younger sickly disabled always needing protection” brother and I am hoping there will be place within the story for Adolin to be something else than the “happy forever pleased, supportive, selfless side-kick whom never has reaction to events other then being more supportive”.

BTW, I love your story of how you started reading a book because it was laying around. Many books I read in my youth were read because they were “laying around”.

@303: I do not think redemption should be reserved for the characters Brandon has identified as the “main protagonists”. It would, in fact, be great if one or two of them should not get a redemption arc. In Amaram’s case, I persist in thinking there is a moral legitimacy, within Alethkar line of thoughts, not our own, to what he did. I am not putting him pass a redemption: he is a very interesting character.

As for Dalinar, he was a beast. I personally fear more the unleashed beast because it is uncontrollable, it cannot be reasoned with.

 

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

nerium@303:

To invoke Godwin’s law, I’m sure that historical persons like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the like thought that their actions were justified in the name of the greater good.

Or as George R.R. Martin put it:

“Nobody is a villain in their own story. We’re all the heroes of our own stories.”

For me, what makes Amaram more, well, evil, is his complete belief in the rightness of his own actions. Even Sadeas doubted himself from time to time.

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7 years ago

Nerium @303:

I don’t see how Thrill could be an excuse, when Dalinar actively pursued it and didn’t care how many corpses it took to get him a high. He was basically a drug addict killing people to feed his addiction. Anyway, I do think that young Dalinar was quite evil – driven by his addiction and general greed as he himself explains in the third flashback.  About the best thing one could say about him was that he was very much a “what you see is what you get” kind of murderous thug, who generally kept his promises and was loyal to the few closest to him. He was A-OK with harming civilians though, and any atrocities committed during their conquest. He was the one who ordered hostage-taking of the populace and of Teleb’s family and there was never any doubt about what would have happened to them if soldiers/Teleb didn’t submit. Now, I think that young Dalinar wouldn’t have stolen the shards from a darkeyes who got them from another darkeyes – but that would have been due mainly to his pride. OTOH, he might have immediately challenged him to a duel borrowing his brother’s shards and killed him. Because as we have seen, Dalinar was unstoppable in the pursuit of something he wanted – unless Gavilar had gotten there first.

Speaking of Amaram – he doesn’t need a redemption to fight on the side of humanity against Odium. In fact, it would be unrealistic if the anti-Odium alliance consisted only of good people. As long as he is able to see the bigger picture, he could be useful. Which, we’ll see if he can. I can’t wait to learn if Gavilar’s intentions were as evil as they seem to be – there is still a chance that he told Eshonai what he thought the Parshendi would want to hear, rather than the whole truth. Though, having seen the healed parshmen – was he truly wrong to want to restore them to “vibrancy”? To, maybe end “the old war” in some other way? Were the Parshendi really right when they wished for their “cousins” to remain in the slaveform forever? It grows complicated, doesn’t it.

I really don’t see how Szeth relates to this issue, as he demonstrably wasn’t acting “for the greater good”, but out of self-admitted selfish cowardice.

Taravangian, however, indeed. And in a way, there might be less chance of him coming around, because he thinks that he has all the answers – and wouldn’t I like to know how he figures that he can deal with the Desolation/Odium without the KR! Even though he certainly was a better person than Amaram to begin with. But Amaram is likely to be confronted with the falseness of his expectations soon, if it hadn’t happened already, due to Taln. 

Gepeto @306:

There may be secrets in Lift’s past – every time she thinks/talks about her native city, there are some disturbing hints. And she did cross half a continent to reach the Nightwatcher as a child of 10.

As to Jasnah and Taln, apparently at least part of whatever will be in their flashbacks was contained in WoK Prime, so at least some of them are likely going to be about their respective pasts. I agree that Renarin’s flashbacks are probably going to catch us up with whatever happenes during the… 10? 15? years between the first and the second pentologies.

OK, some unrelated stuff that popped up in my brain:

The Stormfather is very certain that Odium will be bound by his agreements because he is a part of Adonalsium. Yet, Preservation managed to break his contract with Ruin in the first Mistborn trilogy. What gives?

Odium corrupting spren – I don’t see how it could be possible with spren of Honor/Cultivation, but it should be feasible with the spren of Adonalsium, which existed on Roshar prior to the Shattering and would have contained a bit of everything, including Odium, thus giving him an entry point. Could the Unmade have been such?

Shouldn’t Lift, who is partly in the Cognitive Realm have been able to see spren better/in their true forms? Including spren who can make themselves invisible to humans? Shouldn’t she be able to communicate with entities in Shadesmar?

Having re-read WoR prologue, Nale and Kalak are definitely behind the asassination of Gavilar in some roundabout way. Did they somehow lead the Parshendi to Szeth and manipulated them into discovering his secret? Did they coopt Venli? Also, apparently they have official identities that could stand up to a cursory background check. Jasnah intended to dig a bit more, but apparently didn’t? And Liss seems entirely too knowing that something was about to happen. Hm…

There have been suggestions that one of the Bondsmiths is going to be bonded to an Odium-spren. I don’t see how this could be possible – wouldn’t it make them into an agent of the enemy? Yes, number 3 is suggestive, but let’s not forget that Adonalsium was there first, before the Shards and that s/he left spren too. If the 3 Bondsmiths are indeed bonded to the 3 godspren, then the 3rd one is probably Cuisceh(?) the Protector and it is of pure Adonalsium investiture, while the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, while they may have pre-existed the Shards, now have Honor/Cultivation investiture mixed in.

P.S. In the Prelude to SA, Jezrien looks like a man of 30, but Shallash is supposed to be his daughter? Since I doubt that she became a Herald in her early teens, does this mean that Jezrien was rejuvenated/cognitively changed himself to look that way? Or were the Heralds not all created at the same time – giving Shallash a few years to grow up?

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7 years ago

@308: I really like your take on Dalinar. It was brilliantly said and it expresses every single one of my thoughts. Young Dalinar wasn’t a good person and I would personally rank his “evil deeds” much higher than Amaram’s mostly because he did them out of greed. Amaram, at the very least, believes there is a higher reason for his actions. Of course, he is probably dead wrong, but at least he has the excuse of having been misguided into thinking he was acting for the greater good. Young Dalinar never cared about the greater good and, to me, it marks a sharp difference in between both characters.

I am very dubious about Lift’s backstory. Knowing what she asked the Nightwatcher, how she became an orphan how/why she became a Radiant, I am not currently feeling the need to read a detailed story of how she got there. It doesn’t seem required. I could be wrong, but I felt Brandon did not leave enough mystery within Lift’s current past to turn into a 10 chapters long backstory. Also, she is so young, we don’t really need to know her backstory within great details to flesh out her character. As such, it seems preferable if her backstory was to deal with her future past. She is a child. She will still be a child by the end of the first arc, but she’ll be an adult within the second half. Surely, “stuff” will happen in between now and then. She will be a fully-fledged Radiant by then and maybe will find her into a precarious position which will leave us wondering how/when she got there.

I have no issue with Jasnah/Taln’s backstory. I can easily imagined there will be relevant and not focus on elements the main narrative (or other characters flashbacks) will unravel, unlike Renarin who really isn’t as mysterious as he seems. Jasnah however, we do wonder about her. Theories on her past have been numerous. We are unlikely to get answers before we get to her. I never read anyone theorizing on Renarin’s past: it is pretty self-explanatory and probably not very interesting to read. His future past though may be very interesting.

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Daniel
7 years ago

@267 Anthony:

Sadeas basically murdered 6000 Kholin soldiers. It wasn’t an honorable battle between 2 sides where his side won and consequently killed 6000 soldiers no… He made Dalinar believe that he was with him and left him and his army to die by removing their retreat bridges. Torol Sadeas left close to 6000 widows and who know how many kids orphaned by way of treachery because he simply wanted Dalinar out of the way. He even accepted his real intentions in WoR:

He thinks to himself in chapter 58:

“Isn’t this what you wanted? To reawaken him? No, the deeper truth was that Sadeas didn’t want Dalinar back. He wanted his old friend out of the way. And it had been such for months now no matter what he wanted to tell himself.” 

Sadeas IS a villain. He’s not a hateful shard that is biding his time to destroy the universe, but he is as big a villain as you can get.

 

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Daniel
7 years ago

Thank the Almighty… I was sure at least 1 member of Bridge 4 was going to die. For a second I even thought it was going to be Teft.

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7 years ago

@sw51: The question of whether Amaran and many other players are evil or misguided will be one of the central questions of this entire series. 

We have a lot of different people with different beliefs and world(s)views who are trying to reasonably resolve conflicts on their own scale. 

Its sort of the point that Hoid was making to Jasnah at the end of WOR. I think that our opinions of many characters will shift a ton over this 10-book arc. See Nale and Szechuan after Edgedancer 

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nerium
7 years ago

@308 Oh, I never did believe that substance abuse was a very good cause for alleviating circumstances, I merely pointed out that others might argue that it was. I do think that Dalinar was an evil bastard in his youth, perhaps the sort of person that Kaladin once described Tvlakv as being (I don’t remember his precise words) – someone despicable but  also likable. It would be also good to know if Dalinar actually killed the boy when he claimed Oathbringer. When I’d first read the chapter, I thought he did, but after reading the comments I’m not so sure anymore. It would help us understand if there was something Dalinar was unwilling to do, other than murdering his brother. If he didn’t kill him, I’d say that would make him only as evil, or even less evil than Amaram, since at least Dalinar wasn’t a hypocrite. But perhaps my judgement is simply clouded by my distaste for self-righteous hypocrites. Indeed, for a while Amaram did seem to feel some guilt over what he had done, even if he did later convince himself that he’d been in the right.

While you’re right in pointing out that not everyone fighting Odium has to be honorable, for some orders of the Knghts Radiant such alliances could prove to be dangerous in more than one way.

Oh, I merely referenced Szeth because I’ve noticed him sometimes being given a pass… Not necessarily on this thread, but enough to create an impression. Also, while I agree with your take on his true motivations, he still was following his sense of honor, so, in a way, doing what he’d thought was right, not too unlike Taravangian, who also acknowledged the monstrousness of his actions and yet still continued.

I think that the way for Taravangian to come around would be to be presented with a fundamental flaw within the Diagram.

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Joshua Danes
7 years ago

For those who think Amaram had any honorable intentions in taking the Blade from Kaladin:  he went against tradition and did not allow Kal to own the blade, his reason to Kal was so that his army could get to the shattered plains.  His reason to Dalinar was because they need people who know how to use one to fight the parshendi. But the final trial is when he steals the blade of the supposed Taln.  Dalinar sums it up right then and there, it is all about greed.   Amaram slaughtered an entire squad of his own men,  to get ahead,  and the theft was proof that it was not for the greater good.   If it had been,  he would not have kept it for himself,  but relinquished it to the king as another tool to use in the hands of a trained blade master.

 

Amaram is lying to himself and justifying his greed to assuage guilt,  if he can feel it,  if not guilt than simply to try to get out of having been caught in a lie and a murder.  He knows what he did was wrong,  and he refuses to admit it. I feel like this,  above all else, mixed with the probability of him doing it again, makes him a villain.

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7 years ago

Sheiglagh @185.  Are you still planning to attend the OB book signing in Houston?  If so, are you still willing to ask the my question about the Desolations
   “Before any of the prior Desolations, did any society on Roshar achive a society level equivalent to America in the late 20th century/early 21st century?  Did any society reach a level of technology wherein members of the society traveled by space to other systems in the Cosmere?”

A couple of months ago, I had asked if anybody who was going to one of the book signing would be willing to ask my above question.  You said you would but asked me to remind you closer to the date of the book signing.

Thanks,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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7 years ago

Joshua @314 – Technically, Amaram never stopped Kaladin from possessing the Blade and Plate. Kaladin didn’t want them, and assigned them to one of his men. That part, Amaram refused to honor: killing the rest of the squad, branding Kaladin as a slave, and taking the Blade and Plate for his own after creating some subterfuge to distance the time frames. If Kaladin had claimed them on the battlefield, they’d have been his. It’s uncertain whether or not Amaram would have acknowledged Kaladin’s ownership later in the warcenter, but he still insisted that he didn’t want them and that they should belong to Coreb. Had he claimed them at that point, it’s possible that he’d have been killed along with his squad, but it’s also possible that all five would have lived as free men. We don’t know, so we only have our personal interpretations to go on.

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7 years ago

It is dead, as is the man who broke his oath to kill it.”  That quote from the Stormfather suggests that the Radiants specifically broke their Oaths to kill their spren.  Its possible he is just bitter and thinks the decision was targseted at the Spren.  But I think the issue is with the Spren themselves.  We know that a Shard’s Intent eventually overwhelms the bearer.  Based on this and the Herald Nalan’s story in Edgedancer I believe that Spren can also overwhelm their Bonded Knights.

There is also this quote from Words of Radiance:

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt,

Our minds are too close to their realm.
That gives us our forms, but more is then,
Demanded by the smartest spren.
We can’t provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.”

It certainly sounds like the Spren can have long term effects and get more from the bond than we currently understand.

Hoping that things will get interesting after Shallan’s discovery.  Like many others, I think the central pillar will hold stormlight and pump it via the strata throughout the city.

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7 years ago

Drehy is the gay one, right?  The one that Brandon likes to bring out when people mention his characters are all straight?  

At least there is Ranette, who is awesome.

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7 years ago

Mr T’s comment “I understand” seems so ominous.  I have this bad feeling that he was assessing Dalinar’s sense of justice  and will somehow betray Dalinar in the future because he can’t make the hard decisions. 

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7 years ago

Fijjit@298: shardpools are not “acting”. I did not say that Shards cease to exist when the Vessel is killed. They can’t act.

Anthony Pero@305:

“… the Diagram does predict secondary and tertiary (and beyond) consequence) with stunning accuracy …”

This is only true if Taravangian is the hero of the story. Otherwise, one must assume the Diagram is in fact wrong in some way.

Isilel@308: “The Stormfather is very certain that Odium will be bound by his agreements because he is a part of Adonalsium. Yet, Preservation managed to break his contract with Ruin in the first Mistborn trilogy. What gives?

Breaking the contract weakened Leras enough to eventually result in his death. Ruin and Preservation were originally evenly-matched, but Leras was damaged by the violation enough that Ruin could eventually finish him off. It’s highly plausible that Odium/Rayse would do anything rather than weaken himself. It’s also plausible that the Stormfather is just wrong–he has been wrong about lots of other things, and as a Sliver of Honor might be too inclined to trust oaths.

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7 years ago

@AP

Yeah, I don’t trust the Diagram or the mind of the person it came from. That information was filtered through the Dune Mentat version of Taravangian and he’s been struggling to interpret it ever since. 

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7 years ago

Wrote lots of stuff and lost it… Stoopid phone…

@296 Fools:  Kaladin thinks of Eshu, who pretends he understands that which he does not in front of those who do, while he is in the chasms with Shallan.  In WoK, he also thinks of a Fool who behaves as a child though he is an adult, when he’s at the Roshones’ home.

Shards:  So, what about accidental/unexpected damage?  Or does it use the damaged thing’s perception too?  A table knows it is a table, and that a shardfork can stab it?

 

@299 But there are non-sharp parts beside the hilt. Otherwise there would be no last claps. 

 

Two more random thoughts:

 

10 and 9 – has anyone else noticed how many times 9 out of 10 is relevant?  There are 10 heralds but 9 broke the oathpact.  10 orders of radiants, but 9 disbanded in the Recreance.  10 gemstones, but 9 are used in currency.  It’s never the “same 9” either.  I don’t know what to make of this but it seems interesting.

 

Ivory: Anyone else think that the midnight essence and the midnight mother both sound kinda like descriptions of Jasnah’s spren?  (See WoR prologue, also a chapter in part one of WoR called “pattern.”)

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nerium
7 years ago

@322 9 pancakes out of 10!

Also, yes, I noticed that too, but I think that is either a coincidence or a red herring.

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7 years ago

First post, thought I would include my random theories and thoughts.

why didn’t pattern unlock the fancy door? Another secret Shallon is keeping from everyone? 

Anyone else suspect Dalinar’s next ideal will involve Adolin’s murder of Sadeas?Something like keeping his oaths even when it harms those he loves perhaps?

I’m personally thinking that Adolin is going to die, though maybe not in this book. He is constantly pointed out for his recklessly bravery and he is sort of a secondary character. I half expect him to die bravely then Kaladin will blame himself and Shallon and Dalinar will be even more broken. 

And on the subject of Adolin  being an outsider, he does reflect on it several times in WOR that he might not have any real friends. Particularly when Jacamov and co. won’t meet with him due to his reputation and later when Jacamov is involved in the 4 to 1 duel. I think if it weren’t for Shallon he would be feeling very alone. And when he finds out she isn’t confiding in him but had confided in bridgeboy he may start to feel more alone since even REnorin  now has a new friend group.

what will Nale do when he meets our core group of murderers? Even Kal is guilty if conspiring with regicide.

And why hasn’t anyone commented on Moash’s disappearance???

does kaladin know he has squires? Or did he leave before finding out his bridge crew was glowing? Does Syl know

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7 years ago

@324: As much as I like to rant on how Adolin is not more into the focus of the story, I don’t think he will die, especially not to create “emotional distress” to other characters. We already have arcs where Kaladin feels guilty for people dying, we do not need another one. Dalinar and Shallan will become more broken, the whole point of being a Radiant is to reforge yourself, not to sink deeper, but I guess all progression roads are still possible. I do not know if Adolin’s role within the story will ever be anything else than “foil to character XYZ”, but using him to create momentarily distress into the existing character is a rather big waste of an otherwise good character with a strong sympathy capital within the fandom. In shorts, I find Adolin more interesting alive than dead. He’s also the kind of character death which may upset many readers, so I definitely do not see why Brandon would choose this road. He could achieve the same by killing off say Elhokar whom would still come across as a massive shock to many readers, but not so harsh as killing off Adolin. This would be… a bad narrative choice.

I personally think Dalinar’s next oath will have something to do with his conversation with Taravangian. I am not sure which way it will take. I have often thought his next oath is something he learn by dealing with Adolin, but it may be putting too much importance on Adolin than the author wishes to. I am thus thinking it may have to do with Bridge 4 or his men or Amaram and how he generally dispenses justice within his new kingdom. 

IMHO, the story never dealt with Adolin’s friends betrayal: it was treated as a none-issue and it always seemed wrong. It always seemed wrong to me the story would emphasis on him being friendless only to drop the issue because it stopped being convenient within the story. I sincerely wish Brandon would spend a bit of time expending on these issues or, at least, give the readers some insight as to how Adolin is dealing with it all. It needs not to be long, but the fact the author has started so many arcs for Adolin’s character without carrying none to the end is starting to make the character feel incomplete. He’s starting to read like the “useful” place-holder to start up story arcs for other characters.

Many people believe Moash will be the mystery part 2 novella character but no confirmation have been made. 

Kaladin knows. Teft tells him he saw many of their own glow during the Narack battle. Dalinar and co refers to Bridge 4 as squires, so it is safe to know Kaladin does know. 

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7 years ago

If Adolin does die, sometime during the first five books, I hope that when books 6 picks up, Shallan is not married to Renarin.  I do not want something similar to what happens to Mandy Moore’s character in This is Us.  If am not predicting that this will happen.  Further, I can find no textual support that would hint that Shallan would consider Renarin to be anything more than Adolin’s younger brother who happens to be a KR.

BTW, based on the OB chapters released so far, can we put to an end to the theory that Renarian is really not a KR (or at least as much a KR as Jasnah, Dalinar, Kaladin, Lift, Shallan and Malata).

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren

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Marc
7 years ago

Wow.  Reading through all the thoughts being shared and discussed has really brought something home for me.  Brandon Sanderson is a very brave soul.  It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to put your heart and soul into writing books like this and then not only create/support a venue like this where his fans/critics can come together and share their musings, insights, and theories but to actually celebrate this sort of process…that takes guts!

Consider the synergistic process that an online forum like this creates.  Without a forum like this certainly most of us would still enjoy the books and we would have our musings and theories but authors even 10-15 years ago really didn’t have this sort of forum for their fans to get together and go over their works with a very fine-toothed comb.  While it quite likely has benefited him by charging up a fan base who will gobble up his books, it also has to be intimidating because we theorists create synergy via the process of sharing our ideas, thoughts, complaints, and insights and the whole thing potentially exposes flaws, mistakes, and inconsistencies that many of us wouldn’t have noticed just on our own with no one to bounce our ideas off of.

Consider: in just a couple of comments prior to this one, a person questions why Shallan didnt just have Pattern unlock the door.  The speculation is that perhaps it was just one of her ways of hiding who she was/what she could do from those around her.  My point is not this comment per se, it is to illustrate just how closely we are holding the magnifying glass towards what he is writing.  I can certainly imagine how easy it would be for someone like me to try to write a book and to be completely oblivious to a potential contradiction or oversight in the writing of a scene which, in a setting like this forum would quite surely be noticed by a reader if not a host of readers.  The fact that Brandon can write as many words and scenes as he does, even across a cosmere, and not have the story be chuck-full of such contradictions/oversights is a mark of his genius.  Yes, he has a team of helpers to assist him in catching these sorts of mistakes and he has the beta readers but still.  

I’m just glad he is writing these amazing stories and I’m having a blast reading y’all’s musings.  I’ve learned much more about not only this series and the entire Cosmere just by reading your comments these past few weeks.  It’s added to the fun of the journey.

And thank you Brandon, for sharing your genius and the vision of your world and cosmere with us, even if we get a little nit-picky at times.

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7 years ago

@326: I really do not think Shallan would ever marry Renarin. I do not fear this particular plot point.

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Stephane D.
7 years ago

As to who the writer of the epigraphs is, I’m still leaning towards Jasnah, although for how he/she dances around the subject it could well be Wit/Hoid. Dalinar would just skip the preamble and get to the point, and Shallan would have snuck in a pun or three at that point.

About Dalinar getting his memories back, the most obvious reason would be his mind being “healed” by his use of Stormlight, but I suspect it could have something to do with the new fabrial Navani gave him. In addition to telling time, it’s supposed to take away his pain – the same thing as his boon from the Nightmother – or so he thinks at least.

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Kal's Gal
7 years ago

#316 – You are right about Amaram in this. All evidence to points to the fact that he would have allowed Kaladin to take the Shards as soon as Kaladin killed Helarin on the battlefield. Amaram was incredulous when Kaladin didn’t take it then, and even more so later in the room when they brought the Shards to Kaladin. Amaram is no doubt a monster for what he ended up doing, but I do think he would have remained honorable if Kaladin had taken the weapons for himself immediately.

I have to give Amaram credit for that. What makes Brandon’s characters so good is that you end up seeing valid points from all their respective points of view. This was evident from the dialogue and actions in Chapter 28. It reminds me of Walter White in Breaking Bad – the writing was so good and acting so believable that you found yourself rooting for Walter, even though he clearly turned into a very, very terrible person. 

I am so excited for tomorrow, then of course next Tuesday!

 

 

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Meerletalis
7 years ago

 @329 I am leaning toward, “We will not know in this book who the prologue author is.”

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7 years ago

“What makes Brandon’s characters so good is that you end up seeing valid points from all their respective points of view.” You mean like how the Final Emperor saved the world (of Scadrial)? Vasher/Peacebringer/Warbreaker caused the Manywar and murdered his own wife (and made a Stormbringer-impersonator)?

Yeah, Brandon Sanderson doesn’t do too many mustache-twirling villains. (Wax’s uncle might be an exception, he was pretty repulsive.)

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Joshua danes
7 years ago

@332. Scadrial is mistborn.  You are thinking Nalthis. 

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Tommy
7 years ago

RE Amaram’s decision if Kaladin had claimed the blades. I think the situation is ambiguous enough to go either way. It is possible Amaram would have left the blades to Kaladin if Kaladin had claimed them. It is also possible he wouldn’t have I think because he mentions that if he had asked Kaladin for them, Kaladin could have always come back later and asked for them back. If we ever get some internal thoughts that confirm it one way or another I will not be surprised either way. I suspect that with Restares egging him on there was no way he was not taking those shards.

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Matt
7 years ago

My problem with Amaram isn’t necessarily that he took the blade from Kaladin. I can see his point about believing they’re needed in the right place with the right people. But if you’re going to take them, just do it and own up to your actions. Amaram decided that he needed to murder a bunch of witnesses and sell an innocent into slavery just to cover up his misdeeds, because his image of the honorable man and perfect Alethi was too important to allow to be tarnished. He could have just taken the sword and no one would have been able to do a thing about it – he was a high-ranking lighteyes and once the blade was bonded it would be settled for good. The only reason to kill everyone is to cover up his shame.

That’s where I think he and Dalinar differ. Dalinar always owned up to the fact he was a monster. He fought wars because the other side had stuff he wanted, and because he enjoyed doing it, and he never tried to hide that from anyone. Personally, that makes Dalinar seem like a lot more forgivable character for me although I can see how others might not make the same distinction.

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fatakun
7 years ago

GUYS! What time does the next 3 come out EST?

 

thx. :D

Steve-son-son-Charles
7 years ago

@336

9am, like every week.

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7 years ago

I hear it might only be the last two chapters in part one this week.

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Gautam
7 years ago

@338 Yeah They said at the start it was till 32 chapters

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Peter
7 years ago

Are they going to post the last bit of teasing read this week or they are going to leave us with empty hands?

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Gautam
7 years ago

Time’s Up where are the new chapters?

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7 years ago

Daylight Savings Time got over. Afraid its going to be +1 hour more, compared to whichever timezone you are in.

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Antonella
7 years ago

This is cruel..

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Morridin
7 years ago

Just a post to check how long it will be until the next few chapters are released.

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Nate
7 years ago

Strong connections/similarities between the Midnight Mother and the Aether of Night (unpublished draft that can be got by joining Sanderson’s e-mail list). 

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7 years ago

@333: no, I’m thinking Scadrial. I said that the Final Emperor–the antagonist of the novel Mistborn–saved Scadrial, where Mistborn takes place.

InhumanByte
7 years ago

“A place beyond this room in the tower, beyond even Shadesmar.” OOH I BET THAT’S THE SPIRITUAL REALM

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Wise One
7 years ago

Seeing the pillar of gems in the lower level made me think of the patterns Shallan was seeing in the strata. The strata could be a means of transferring stormlight to and from the gems. This would then be a way that the air ventilation, water etc. was made to work.

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Wise One
7 years ago

I wonder if when Lift gets back to Azir she will convince the Prime to allow her to open the gate with her shardblade and ask to see the surgeon, the liar and the highprince.

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