Welcome to the Malazan Re-read of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover the Prologue and Chapter 1 of House of Chains by Steven Erikson (HoC).
A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing.
Note: The summary of events will be free of major spoilers and we’re going to try keeping the reader comments the same. A spoiler thread has been set up for outright Malazan spoiler discussion.
Prologue
The prologue opens on a scene of devastation due to flood, a “drowned world,” with bloated corpses being fed upon by small black crabs. A city lies mostly under water due to the flood, seemingly caused by a “warren’s sundering.” The new sea arose due to a river from another realm—a massive river filled with silt and giant catfish and water-spiders—that had been shunted into this one and left to flow for months. Those that didn’t drown were done in by plague, before the rent closed the night before the book’s opening. Silt had piled up against a huge wall that had held back the waters, due perhaps to sorcery. The wall was set at regular intervals with large iron rings at the top. Trull Sengar is being dragged to the wall by his “captors,” whom he also names brothers and kin, by whom he had stood through “all that had happened, the glorious triumphs, the soul-wrenching losses.” He is chained to the wall, a steel plate lodged in his mouth. Then he is shorn ritually: his hair cut and scalp rubbed with a cream to keep him permanently bald, his forehead scarred by a circle with a slash through it to break the circle. The Shorning represents him being cast out, as if he had never existed at all. His captors speak of how Trull has betrayed one of them in particular, intoning that Trull had told them that the unnamed speaker that was betrayed had “severed your blood from ours . . . served a hidden master . . . betrayed our people.” The one betrayed refutes this accusation by listing his accomplishments: “the southlands are aflame. The enemy’s armies have fled. The enemy now kneels before us and begs to be our slaves. From nothing was forged an empire.” And to continue growing stronger, he tells his brothers they must continue to search and when they “find what must be sought,” they are to deliver it to him. He asks if they understand this requirement as well as the sacrifice he makes for their people and his brothers answer yes, and agree that Trull had not only spoken against their seeming leader but had also defended their enemies, calling them “the Pure Kin and [saying] we should not kill them.” When they agree Trull betrayed their brother, their leader says Trull betrayed them all, and there is a momentary hesitation before they agree to this as well, though Trull hears doubt in their voices. Trull thinks to himself this was clever as the leader now “shares out this crime of yours.” His captors leave and Trull thinks how Nature fights “but one eternal war . . . to understand this was to understand the world. Every world. Nature has but one enemy. And that is imbalance.” He muses how the wall holds back the sea, but only “for now,” for the “flood would not be denied.” He thinks he will drown soon, but not much sooner than his own people, for “his brother had shattered the balance. And Nature shall not abide.”
Amanda’s Reaction to the Prologue:
Had a very brief look at the Dramatis Personae before kicking off the read—some familiar names there (seems like we’ll finally get to know Adjunct Tavore) [Bill: Yes, it would seem that way, huh?], and LOTS of unfamiliar names again. Looks like we’re being given a whole different section of the tale now.
Straight away, in the Prologue, we’re shown “the 943rd Day of the Search”—this is not a measure of time we’ve seen before, hence we know that we’re dealing with something new.
And what a nasty first paragraph! Check out those words: “bloated,” “heaped,” “putrefying”—we’re not being given a pretty picture at all, are we?
More imagery, with the river/sea/searching—we’ve had exposure to people/beings in various other books associated with the sea and searching….
Hmm, trying to remember if we’ve seen a river that was pushed through a warren—I’m thinking about the Silanda right now. Was that warren not formed of a river/sea? Or am I misremembering? [Bill: Nope—the Silanda is exactly what you should be thinking.]
Brother versus brother. Kin against kin. That never ends well.
What could those massive iron rings have been used for before being turned to a captivity device? Oh, and look! Barely a page into the novel and our first experience of chains! Not something we’ve seen the last of, I’m sure—metaphorically and otherwise!
A hidden master and Pure Kin… Both points that will have great import, I reckon.
So, as Bill points out below, it’s all questions! We’ve taken a major step to a new people and place, and we are now, once again, hurrying to catch up rather than remaining in the comfort zone of familiar characters.
Bill’s Reaction to the Prologue:
Talk about a downer of an opening: death and destruction of an entire world, bodies decomposing and fed upon, flood, plague. We’ve heard of sundered warrens before; time will tell us whether this is the same event or not and what caused it. A few concrete items to keep in mind for later:
- A river diverted from another world
- Giant catfish
- A massive wall with iron rings every fifteen paces or so
- Crabs feasting on corpses
The prologue of course raises some basic questions:
- Who is Trull Sengar? We’ve seen Erikson veer away from storylines before and here is a major swerve. Trull will, no surprise, become a major character.
- Whom did he betray?
- What is this new empire?
- What do they seek and for what purpose?
- Who is the hidden master the leader supposedly serves (according to Trull seemingly)?
- What enemy has this new empire just defeated?
- Who are the Pure Kin?
- How did the leader, Trull’s brother, supposedly shatter the balance?
All of these questions will be answered in time (some in less time than others). But I will mention now that we’ve had reference in our past book to a people seeking, ever seeking. Anyone remember?
Along with lots of questions, the prologue also offers up a few common themes: the idea of balance and imbalance, opposition (sea and wall, a sundered warren, brother versus brother) and the area between, where things either split apart or come together (or, more philosophically, both): a shore.
I like this way of opening a novel with new characters, new setting, and a whole lot of questions. Keeps us on our toes as readers.
CHAPTER ONE
SCENE 1
Centuries ago, before the “Seven Gods opened their eyes,” a dog, displaying no wounds or sign of rabies, suddenly turned on people mysteriously, killing two and wounding one. The dog is put down by a group of warriors who stab it to death with spears. The people consider how madness “could remain hidden, buried far beneath the surface. The surviving victim, a baby, is brought down to the “Faces in the Rock”—the “Seven Gods of the Teblor,” where he dies soon after.
SCENE 2
Karsa Orlong revels in his grandfather’s tales of raids on Silver Lake, of “farms in flames, children dragged behind horses . . . small ears nailed to every wooden post.” The tales confirm for Karsa his grandfather’s bravery and his father’s cowardice and smallness. This despite his father, Synyg, defending his horses against the other clans’ raiders and doing a good job of training Karsa in the “Fighting Dances” and the use of his bloodsword as well as other weapons, so that Karsa, though young, became the best warrior of his clan. Karsa has sworn he will be more like his grandfather than father and that he will lead his people back to the old ways, beginning by leading his two friends Delum Thord and Bairoth Gild on another raid of Silver Lake like his grandfather did in his youth. He believes that in the decades since his grandfather’s raid, Silver Lake has grown from its previous two farms to perhaps as many as three or four, offering more potential victims. He vows before his gods, particularly Urugal—his own clan’s god—to slaughter the inhabitants of Silver Lake and bring glory and pride back to his people the Teblor. He thinks how Dayliss will offer her blessing to his raid and then take him as husband, now that he is a “warrior in truth,” having arrived at his 80th year.
SCENE 3
After Karsa leaves the glade of the gods, seven figures rise from the ground, some “missing limbs, others stood on splintered, shattered, or mangled legs. One lacked a lower jaw . . . Each of the seven, broken in some way. Imperfect. Flawed.” They reflect on how they had been sentenced to inhabit a sealed cavern for centuries, left behind “as was the custom of their kind. Failure’s sentence was abandonment . . . When failure was honorable their sentiment remains would be placed open to the sky,” but these had failed dishonorably. Their rebirth came about from “breaking a vow and swearing fealty to another.” Their kin, those that had left them in the cavern, had marked the site with carved faces and their ritual of binding had “lingered in this place with a power sufficient to twist the minds of the shamans of the people who had found refuge in these mountains.” The seven’s freedom is so far limited to the glade, but their freedom would soon “break free of its last chains” as “service to the new master promised travel . . . and countless deaths to deliver.” Urual (Urugal to the Teblor) says that Karsa will “suffice.” Sin’balle (Siballe) is more skeptical, saying the Teblor don’t even know their true name, to which Ber’ok says “their ignorance is our greatest weapon.” Urual agrees, saying it is their ignorance of “their legacy” which made it so easy for the seven to “twist” the Teblor’s faith. Sin’balle points out they thought Karsa’s grandfather would “suffice” too but failed. Haran’alle says the seven were too impatient, and too weakened by the “sundering of the Vow.” Thek complains their new master hasn’t given them enough power, but Urual says he “recovers from his ordeals as we do from ours.” Urual says in any case, if Karsa fails they will turn to Dayliss’ unborn child (Bairoth is the father), which maks Emroth complain that it will take another century due to the long lives of the Teblor. Urual thinks of Emroth’s “Soletaken proclivities, and its hunger that had so clearly led to their failure so long ago. He tells Emroth to stay close to Dayliss’ unborn child and she says she is already influencing it, saying “what I make within is neither a girl nor a child.” They all return to the earth as night falls.
SCENE 4
Karsa goes home and finds his father Synyg grooming his (Synyg’s) horse Havok. Karsa complains his own horse is not there and they rehash an obviously old argument that Karsa’s horse isn’t ready for the journey. Karsa is surprised when his father says he is giving Karsa Havok. His father then tells him Bairoth and Delum are waiting at the river’s ford, and also that Dayliss blessed Bairoth. Karsa asks if his father will bless him and Synyg says Karsa’s grandfather Pahlk has already done so and Karsa should be satisfied with that. When Karsa presses him, Synyg asks what he should bless: “the Seven Gods who are a lie? The glory that is empty? . . The slaying of children?” He adds that Pahlk his more interested in his own youthful “glory” than in Karsa’s. Karsa rides away to meet his two friends. Bairoth and Karsa spar a bit over Dayliss, then the three head out.
SCENE 5
Watching the three depart are twenty-three “silent witnesses,” blood-kin of the three friends who had been sacrificed in the glade to Siballe, who called them her “Found.” They dwelt unseen among the Teblor, though some suspected, such as Synyg, or Synyg’s wife and Karsa’s mother, who was considered a threat by the Found and so dealt with via “extreme measures.” Each of them had been scarred along the left side of the face by Siballe. One of them, watching Karsa and the other two leave, says one only will return.
SCENE 6
Synyg is cooking when his father, Pahlk arrives and he offers him dinner. The two clearly do not like each other. Pahlk is surprised that Synyg gave Karsa Havok, and when Synyg says “Havok deserved a final battle, one I knew I would not give him,” Pahlk says “as I thought . . . for your horse but not for your son.” He continues that Karsa is ashamed of Synyg and that is why he came to Pahlk. Synyg mockingly asks for more of Pahlk’s raid stories and Pahlk says Synyg sounds more and more like Karsa’s mother, “that damned woman.” When Pahlk finishes his bowl of food, Synyg throws it into the fire and tells him with Karsa gone, if Pahlk ever comes to his door again he will kill him. He then throws him, literally, out of the house.
SCENE 7
Karsa and his friends head off toward other clan’s lands and Karsa thinks how he doesn’t plan to sneak through them but to “carve a bloody path.” When Bairoth says his horse needs to rest, Karsa mocks him. Delum also says his horse needs a rest and Karsa gives in: “Two weighted chains about me, then . . . So be it.” At camp, Delum suggests traveling only at night by lower elevations but Karsa says they’ll travel by day and when Bairoth says Karsa will put them into war, Karsa agrees, saying “we shall gather souls.” Karsa does not like Bairoth’s mocking tone, his seeming unwillingness to follow. Bairoth says Karsa doesn’t get the humor and that he is indeed content to follow Karsa. Bairoth then instructs Karsa in politics, how the elders who did not bless this journey will claim they did when the three return, how the facts will be rewritten and the villagers will all “remember” lining the street to see the three off. As they sleep, Karsa wonders if Bairoth’s clever mind and mouth will help him in actual battle.
SCENE 8
They comes across a group of nine Rathyd, another Teblor clan. Karsa plans an attack though his friends are skeptical of the odds. Karsa leads and kills or fatally wounds all but a single “youth” (forty years old). Bairoth and Delum arrive behind him and begin to cut the limbs off one of the Rathyd that Karsa had sliced a leg off of. The youth runs away. When Bairoth complains about Karsa letting the youth escape, Karsa says he did so on purpose to trick the Rathyd into looking for three warriors on foot (they had hid their horses before attacking). Delum then complains that the youth will grow up recalling the horror of this night and will lead his people, becoming “an enemy for the Uryd, an enemy to pale all we have known in the past.” Karsa tells them that “one day . . . that Rathyd warrior shall kneel before me. This I vow, here, on the blood of his kin.” Bairoth says it is the impossible, for “no Rathyd kneels before an Uryd.” Karsa replies it will happen, and they can “witness” his vows becoming truth. They take trophies (ears, tongue, a bear fur and skull) and then prepare to ride out.
SCENE 9
They continue on, killing a few more Rathyd and taking their horses. Karsa’s wounds from the first attack are already healing, a common ability of the Teblor. Karsa tells his friends they will attack the Rathyd village while their warriors are out hunting for them. He will then lead the avenging Rathyd toward the neighboring clan’s lands and start a war between the Rathyd and the Sunyd.
SCENE 10
The three find the village filled only with elders, women, and youth. They attack and kill many and then round up the women. Two “eager” ones go off with Bairoth and Delum. The chief’s wife mocks Karsa’s belief his clan’s women would act differently. Karsa names himself and his lineage, and when he talks of how her people must curse his grandfather, she laughs and tells him Pahlk “bowed his head to beg passage.” She asks how many women they will mate with and he tells them all of them, since they are young and have blood-oil. She says the blood-oil will indeed keep them stimulated enough, will last for days, but that for the women the effect will “haunt” them for months. When Karsa’s turn arrives and the chief’s wife offers her daughter, Karsa takes the wife instead, though she says her husband will curse him for it.
SCENE 11
Karsa takes the chief’s daughter last. He tells her their village is done and the women should go live with his clan, and that she and her mother should go to his own village to raise his children and wait for him. She asks if she wants to know his name and unaware of how it shames her, tells her no, he’ll just call her Dayliss. He impregnates both her and her mother.
SCENE 12
After riding onward from the village, they come across a pack of Rathyd dogs. Karsa grabs and dominates the pack’s leader, Delum kills one dog that doesn’t submit, and they now have control of the pack. Delum tells Karsa he now believes Karsa will do all he says and Karsa tells him he will not be content to lead just their clan but all their people, who have “slept for far too long” and whom he will lead against the outlands.
SCENE 13
They start to cross a walkway above untrustworthy, sodden ground and Karsa tell them that sixty years ago, when his grandfather had met with the other Elders, “the river of ice filling the Fissure [a geographic feature to the north of the Teblor valleys] had died suddenly and begun to melt.” When Bairoth says the elders never said what they found up there, Karsa says Pahlk had told him of “beasts that had been frozen in the ice for numberless centuries . . . The river had a black heart . . . but whatever lay within that heart was either gone or destroyed. Even so, there were signs of an ancient battle . . . weapons of stone.” They are interrupted by the appearance of Rathyd warriors behind and before them on the walkway. They kill all but a few who run away. When Karsa tells Bairoth that it was his (Bairoth’s) act that led to victory, Bairoth is surprised and tells him “I am content to follow you, Warleader.” To which Karsa replies in his mind, “you ever were . . . and that is the difference between us.”
Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter One:
All of those themes from the Prologue are reflected in this poor dog that has turned to madness: plague/illness; turning against those he had favoured; betrayal; trapping the beast. I love the way that Erikson pursues all his themes throughout the whole of a novel—it makes for an incredibly cohesive reading experience.
In addition to this, we have a sense of the attitudes of the Teblor—harsh, warrior-like, shamanic leadership. And we can also see something that is occurring across the whole of the world—the awakening of gods.
Heh, I always glance over Bill’s summaries before I begin my read, to gain a sense of how much reading I have to do—and also to give them a little proofread—so I’m aware that Karsa will be heading out on a journey soon. And here we have Erikson giving us a little taste:
Evidence that Silver Lake was real, that it existed in truth, beyond the forest-clad mountains, down through hidden passes, a week—perhaps two—distant from the lands of the Uryd clan. The way itself was fraught, passing through territories held by the Sunyd and Rathyd clans, a journey that was itself a tale of legendary proportions.
Again, this is a great example of how tight Erikson’s writing and theming is—he’s already planting the seeds of what kind of journey Karsa will have to undertake.
Now, Karsa… That name is mightily familiar. Is it just because I’ve seen people refer to him in the comments sections? Or is he someone we’ve heard about in previous volumes? If so, I imagine it was pretty throwaway and something I’d have done well to remember!
Hmm, I’m finding a lot of similarities between Karsa and Kiska—from the name to the attitudes towards their elders; their arrogance crossed with naivety. I hope that Karsa doesn’t end up irritating me to the same extent! “Karsa would not do as his father had done. He would not do…nothing. No, he would walk his grandfather’s path.”
“We have counted coup.” Not sure what this means? [Bill: It’s a warrior code concept—a risky achievement to be proud of versus an enemy, one that gains you admiration/respect among your fellow warriors. For instance, killing an enemy from afar with a bow and arrow is one thing, but sneaking into their camp and stealing their horses right from underneath their noses, or getting in close in battle and slicing a lock of hair is much more impressive.]
The Seven Gods sound as though there are distinct enmities and issues between them—and as though the Teblor only follow one of the Gods:
None of their children knelt before them, after all, to voice such bold vows.
With sections like these, Erikson effectively uses fantasy to explore the fact that religion can cause hate and war.
After the massive epic scale of the last two novels—travelling across continents—the start to House of Chains is incredibly localised and ignorant of what is going on in the wider world. For Karsa, Silver Lake—a mere two weeks or so travel—is considered very distant. The Teblor have not associated with outsiders:
The world beyond the mountains dared not encroach, had not attempted to do so in decades. No visitors ventured into Teblor lands. Nor had the Teblor themselves gazed out beyond the borderlands with dark hunger, as they had often done generations past.
The name Teblor sort of reminds me of Toblakai. I’m wondering if the Teblor are an offshoot of some other race we’ve already encountered. [Bill: Good call!]
Heh, this really is microscopic—two farms at Silver Lake have expanded to four over the last four centuries!
“For him, and him alone, Dayliss would unsheathe her Knife of Night.” More echoes of “Night of Knives”! What is this unsheathing business?
And now we find that Karsa is considered young at eighty years of age—this is raising a lot of questions.
“Each of the seven, broken in some way. Imperfect. Flawed.” You know what immediately occurs to me? The fact that the Crippled God would currently welcome these to his following. [Bill: Yep!] This extract enforces that feeling: “All that was required was the breaking of a vow, and the swearing of fealty to another.” And—betrayal comes again, after the events of the prologue.
“Teblor. They know naught, even their true name.” Huh! Definitely wondering which people they belong to!
Oh dear—I see trouble ahead, what with Karsa believing that Dayliss will be his and “Bairoth’s child” in her womb… And, even worse: “What I make within is neither a girl, nor a child.”
*sigh* Yep, Karsa is already starting to peeve me—the seven gods indicated that they were unable to influence Synyg, and I just get more of a sense of rational thought from the father who is kind enough to give his best horse to his son. I dislike the way Karsa disregards the magnitude of this gift, and feels he knows better than his father.
And now Karsa lies to his friend (follower), saying that his father gave his blessing for the trip… Karsa is either a bad sort or completely naive.
Gosh, this is a very dark beginning, isn’t it? Siballe’s taking of the sacrifices to create her own hidden tribe, and their foreboding premonition that only one will return from the raid to Silver Lake. I’m accustomed to dark from Erikson, but this is taking the biscuit. *grins*
Ouch, what a bitter confrontation between Synyg and his father.
Long before the Faces in the Rock awoke to proclaim to the elders, within dreams and trances, that they had defeated the old Teblor spirits and now demanded obeisance; long before the taking of enemy souls had become foremost among Teblor aspirations, the spirits that had ruled the land and its people were the bones of rock, the flesh of earth, the hair and fur of forest and glen, and their breath was the wind of each season.
Hmm, here is our first (or my first, anyway, I’m having a slow start to the novel *grins*) indication that the Seven are not the true gods of the Teblor—that they have swept in and are now using the people of the Teblor for their own ends, and that of their master.
Ah! More chain references: “Two weighted chains about me, then.”
I’m curious about the fact that the Teblor no longer suffer disease—there must be a reason for this, and I’m assuming it will be an important point otherwise it wouldn’t have been mentioned by Erikson.
I do like Bairoth Gild, however. He speaks sense! Especially with observations such as, “They will be feeling invincible, and this will make them careless.”
“The blade’s wood was deep red, almost black, the glassy polish making the painted warcrest seem to float a finger’s width above the surface.” I know it is referred to as wood, but the red aspect of it reminds me of otataral. Any connection? [Bill: Only a direct one. Nice catch.]
A suitably explosive, bloody and nasty battle scene, to reflect the seven gods who are currently guiding the Teblor. And now some ominous premonition that I’m sure we’ll see come to fruition—possibly—by the time we reach book ten: the treatment of the youth by Karsa, the youth who will become a leader of his clan, a leader who Karsa determines will one day kneel before him.
Oh, I don’t like rape. Even when the women pretend to eagerness, it still remains rape. I don’t like the treatment of the chief’s daughter. In fact, I find myself disturbed by the entire beginning of House of Chains. There is not much enjoyment to be found so far.
Hmm, I’m also finding some cliches here. The three young men, two of whom doubt their leader to start with. Now one of them has been converted to the cause of the leader. I feel there will be death and betrayal in the future for Bairoth, as both Karsa and Delum turn on him.
A river of ice? Jaghut?
I have to say, this has been an odd start to a Malazan novel. By far the most difficult, I’d say. I hope that it picks up a little!
Bill’s Reaction to Chapter One:
Unless the ghost of this mad dog comes back to form and plays an active role (granted, something that is not beyond the pale in this series), chances are we’re being set up for something more metaphorical with this scene of the dog going crazy and killing several Teblor before being killed himself. So which character will be playing the role of Meg Ryan’s Sally and ask, “Is one of us supposed to be a dog in this scenario? Who is the dog? I am? I’m the dog?” (And let’s be honest folks—none of you saw a When Harry Met Sally reference coming in a Malazan reread.)
So early on we have two possible candidates: Trull, if we’ve already met the dog, and Karsa, if the dog presages the character. Of course, it could be someone else, or it could be more than one person. We’ll see….
Those gods are not painted in the gentlest of light, are they? “rock,” “hard,” “visage,” (rather more intimidating than face) “carved,” “cliff.” And I love that horror-movie closing line—da da duh!
The use of the word “children” throughout these early pages in reference to the glee with which the Teblor kill them is darkly disturbing, and one wonders if Erikson is really going to go there with a character pov who revels in the killing and torture of children. After all, the first mention is of the “glorious” way in which the children would be “dragged behind horses for leagues.” And then eventually we realize that yes and no—”children” being not small kids necessarily but the regular run-of-the-mill short-lived folks who seem as children to the long-lived Teblor, which came as a relief to me. But for a while there, I recall sweating that one out; I mean, I like “grey” and all, but a hewer of children was gonna be a tough character for me to wrap my reading mind around happily.
I like how we’re very early on given a sense that Karsa’s POV is going to be a bit suspect, as I think many of us would find fault with his description of his father as having a “pallid, empty legacy” because he tended horses rather than killed children. Especially as we’re told immediately that Synyg had fought bravely and fiercely against raiders and was a good teacher of martial arts. And anyone who declares that glory is found not only in the killing of children but in the “vicious perpetuation of feuds” is clearly someone most readers will think is about to get some life-coaching from the author. Later, when we are told of the inwardness of Karsa and his people—that they haven’t been out of the valley, had no contact with the outside world—this merely emphasizes his lack of a full perspective on things.
Along with the harshness of the descriptive language surrounding the gods mentioned above (and added to here: “shattered,” “eager for blood,” “cruel,” “bestial”), we get a subtle hint that these gods might have some issues, when we get a simile comparing the air to “like a breath of the gods, soon to seep into the rotting soil.” We usually think of a god’s breath bringing life—breathing life into the clay that becomes human for instance—but here the breath is linked with decay rather than life. With the “soil” perhaps being the people themselves.
So a few things on these gods, some of which, sorry to say, may qualify as spoilers, but in my mind not terrible ones and not ones that can’t be guessed at this stage. But I think it adds to our discussion as we continue and so I’m going to make the call and go ahead and spoil them—feel free to disagree. Fair warning (beyond the regular twice-weekly fair warning we post each time).
Okay, Amanda has already made a stab at the idea that these gods would make good candidates for the Crippled God. So it isn’t far to move us onto the idea that they already are. I think when Erikson gives us “broken in some way. Imperfect. Flawed,” we’re pointed in a pretty clear direction. Each of those words is on their own associated with the CG quite clearly in prior books. Separated, given to us alone, there wouldn’t necessarily be a connection, but when an author throws three heavily-loaded words at you in immediate succession, emphasizing the latter two by putting them in their own sentences. So yes, these are agents of the CG; he is indeed the one to whom the “swear fealty” and the one who is their “new master.”
The other thing about the gods that we should pick up on as readers is their physical description bears some obvious similarity—in both visual and linguistic terms—to how we’ve seen the T’lan Imass described: missing limbs, “splintered,” “shattered,” lacking jaws or pieces. We get some cultural connection as well, I think, though to be honest, I’m blurring a bit here and so may be getting ahead of myself. I’m pretty sure we’ve had discussions of the T’lan Imass view toward failure, and I think (though less confident) that we’ve heard something of what their kin do to them when they are too ruined to continue moving. “Mossy Bone,” “Lichen for Moss,” “Antler,” and their split names also are hints to their Imass background, as is the reference to one of them having “Soletaken proclivities.” And finally, I’m pretty sure the only time we see “Vow” capitalized is in its association with the T’lan’s Ritual of Tellann. We’re also told bluntly by both the seven themselves and the narrator—”where no gods had ever dwelt”—that these are not true gods, but opportunists who “twisted their [the Teblor’s] faith” to their own ends. This, combined with their harsh descriptions, might be enough alone to start the reader leaning against them, but their discussion about warping the unborn baby in Dayliss’ womb is probably going to clinch that feeling. It’ll be interesting to see if we keep that view of them going forward.
Another reason to question Karsa’s insightfulness as we see his father as not such a bad guy when he offers up Havok. And someone who can surprise Karsa—which speaks perhaps more to Karsa’s lack of true knowledge rather than to Synyg’s unpredictability. Then even more reason to esteem Synyg’s views over Karsa’s when he is clearly aware the Seven Gods are in fact a lie while Karsa swears to them wholly, and his refusal to fully countenance his children’s sacrifice to the “gods.”
Hmm, after that little scene with the mad dog, hardly an auspicious omen to have that dog moaning as the three Teblor head out “to glory.”
A bit creepy, that scene with the sacrificed brothers and sisters, eh? Dark indeed, as Amanda says. As well as the implication that not only do mothers and fathers regularly, ritually kill their own children, but that these children were involved in the killing of Karsa’s mother: “on occasion more extreme measures proved necessary when true risk was perceived. Such as with Karsa’s mother.” How solid a society can one have if its foundation sunders the basic connection of parent-child in both directions?
So we’ve got Karsa referencing a prophecy (cuz what’s a fantasy without a prophecy) of one who would unite the Teblor, and now we have another foretelling—that only one of the three will return. Based on this being Karsa’s pov, I think we’re on safe ground as thinking this doesn’t bode well for the other two.
Ouch indeed, Amanda, on the scene with father and son. It’s Jaghut ice-cold.
Yes, file those “Two weighted chains” he refers to his friend as. And remember that in fantasy, metaphor doesn’t have to stay simply metaphor….
Karsa is clearly not the brains of this group—that would be Bairoth, who has to instruct him in political reality. And thus the education begins….
A “bloody and nasty” scene for sure, Amanda. Look at the level of gore and detail in that scene—even for Erikson this is pretty concentrated brutality and horror, especially the cutting off of the Rathyd’s hands and feet, described as a “game” (by the way—we’ll see something similar later). You can almost feel Erikson working really, really hard to set these Teblor, and Karsa in particular, as a character that will be extremely hard for the reader to empathize with and root for. Is this going to stay this way, or is he setting us up to show us a pre-journey Karsa to allow us to chart his changes to a post-journey Karsa (with multiple stops along the way)?
“Witness if you dare.” Hmmm, if Karsa is irking you now Amanda, just think of hearing this another gazillion times *grin*
This scene in the village continues in the highly disturbing vein. That said, I’m not so sure the women (those first two at least) are feigning eagerness. Anyone else?
The attempted education of Karsa continues, though not so happily or so easily. He tries to deny the reality of what the chief’s woman tells him of the Uryd women and of Pahlk’s “glory.” I like that she “studies” him then just concedes, clearly noting he is not at this stage ready to actually face reality or learn anything.
And for the first time, we get a slight hint of Karsa as slightly more complex—the mother’s description of him as “surprisingly gentle.” A discomfiting thought attached as it is to what most readers will read as simple rape. Then we get his suggestion she and her mother take themselves (and his kids as is foreshadowed—file) to his village and wait for him—this complicates the whole “simply rape” thing just a bit. Then this if followed by his sharply cruel rejoinder to the daughter that he doesn’t care for her name and will call her another’s. Erikson is walking a fine line here I’d say, playing with fire a bit with this character and it’ll be interesting to see the take on him as me move on.
Karsa as alpha dog, leader of his pack. Metaphor anyone? Does this also link him more tightly to the mad dog of earlier? Or is Erikson playing a bit with our heads with that scene here?
River of ice—glacier—is usually associated with the Jaghut. And an ancient battle would conjure up the T’lan Imass if the Jaghut are fighting (and we know there were T’lan Imass in the area via the Seven Gods), as would stone weapons. A question is what lay in the “black heart” of that glacier and was it “destroyed” or “gone”?
Another surprise from Karsa—his willingness to take on the wounded dog and his vow that “one day she will lie grey-nosed and fat before my hearth.”
This is, as you say Amanda, a “difficult” start to this book. It begins in bleakness with Trull, but we’ve seen bleak before. But giving us the pov of a character who revels in gory slaughter of children, who ritually rapes, who is all for the ritual sacrifice of his own brothers and sisters, who spurns his own father—as mentioned before, it’s a big risk. We’ll see if it pans out for most of us or not.
Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.
Amanda Rutter contributes reviews and a regular World Wide Wednesday post to fantasyliterature.com, as well as reviews for her own site floortoceilingbooks.com (covering more genres than just speculative), Vector Reviews and Hub magazine.
@Amanda:
I actually like Kiska, but I’ve got to go with you on Karsa at this point in the story. He is very dislikeable. As Bill points out, it is fairly clear that SE is going out of his way to establish Karsa as not a likeable person. As Bill mentions, we’ll have to watch for character growth (and there sure is room for Karsa to grow.)
As you mentioned, the tone, pace and scope of the story are all very different than the preceding volumes.
Remember the overall themes of tragedy and compassion. We are certainly seeing set ups for tragedy here. We’ll have to wait a bit for compassion.
Hi all,
Forgot to mention a thanks for the patience while I’ve been traveling these last few weeks and a big tip of the hat to Amanda for putting up with the near-complete lack of contact. Which she’ll have to deal with for one more week next week as I head off into the non-electronic world yet again. And thanks to Steven for taking a lot of time and responding in depth to questions once more–sorry I missed that conversation . . .
Bill
Great to have the Re-read back, been looking forward to this. HoC is the book where it dawned on me just how epic/far ranging this series was going to be. While the previous two have been on two different continents they at least were following Bridgeburners we’d already met for the most part, it really through me at first when we’re not only given a completely new PoV character but in a place we hadn’t heard of at all. Rather glad I got used to this shock here as otherwise I’m not sure what my reaction to Midnight Tides would have been.
Nice to see y´all back !
@Amanda: If you read Steven´s comments over at the MoI-Q&A, you may have noticed that he mentions that he took risks with HoC because it was a *break*. Reading the first book of HoC, you will understand.
As I like to interprete it: GotM was the pilot, DG and MoI were elliptic set-up volumes…and now the real arc starts.
At least in Midnight Tides it’s a change of scenery but with at least one familiar character.
The whole way that the first part of HoC is written is completely different from from what we’ve read so far. We’re with Karsa and we’re going to be sticking with him for quite a while. I don’t think it’s very spoilerific to say that we are jumping back in time a bit and playing catchup for a while with Karsa.
The Teblor are a pretty brutal tribal people. And Karsa is pretty unlikable at first for sure. I do enjoy his brazen confidence, but he is naive to a fault. One gets the feeling he is going to be shaped and re-shaped by his experiences.
From the prologue:
You do have to love that ‘logic’. That by itself was enough to show me that Trull’s brothers had some serious cogs loose.
The bloodwood swords are fairly interesting items. Note that 1) they are wooden and that 2) being rubbed with blood oil has given them quite the resiliency.
Karsa merrily lops of arms and legs and scapulas with his. Metal seems to be overrated.
shalter@7: Not so much that metal is overrated as blood oil is underrated, I think. Some of the effects we see from exposure to blood oil and similar things are just strange, but some are astounding in my opinion.
HArai@8:Yes, the blood oil has a large number of enhancing effects.
My saying that metal seems to be overrated is kind of in respect to Karsa’s current mind set. “Metal I don’t need no stinkin’ metal!”
Nice to have the reread back! Hope you had a great trip, Bill.
Karsa. The first part of HoC was a real challenge for me. I so disliked Karsa, I think I spent the entire first part angry. I still find him a difficult character, but he definitely has an arc.
And get used to completely new places! It’s an ongoing adventure! ;-)
Thanks Amanda and Bill. (Warning, folks: this post got kinda long)
Ok, this will be my first re-read of any part of HoC, so I’m looking forward to seeing this through both a newbie’s and a seasoned vet’s eyes (especially since I currently would place myself somewhere inbetween those two). I didn’t find portions of HoC that endearing the first time through, but a number of you have said that the reread really elevates this one and I’m looking forward to it.
Amanda, I would always check out the Dramatis Personae before moving onto each new book as well. Sometimes the assumptions that I made based on the characters listed were met, and sometimes… not so much. I can’t wait to read your impressions about Tavore…
Bill, your list of items to note and questions you raised in the prologue are very helpful this time around. And I’m still not sure about the answer to some of them! This second time through for me is definitely going to be fun…
Ok, “the Seven” make so much more sense now (especially with the description from the summary and after reading Bill’s analysis). And Amanda, you are definitely an observant and insightful reader to link them with The Crippled God right away. As for “spoiling” that they’re T’lan Imass, well I don’t think I figured it out until Erikson spells it out for us, but I don’t have a problem with it being discussed at this point in the reread. I think it provides the possibility for some good discussion.
Karsa has a good blend of tactics and fighting ability. Karsa making a vow and then telling others to “Witness?” How unusual :-) And I agree with Bill that Karsa’s perspective on things is a little… off. Definitely suspect.
Interesting comparison Amanda, between Karsa and Kiska. I think that by the end of this novel, you won’t be that irritated… at least, not in the same way. But, I will suggest that he may be an acquired taste… and even then you might not like certain aspects of his character. Or, you may just continue to dislike him. Oh, and good catch with the Teblor and Toblakai similarities. I’m not ashamed to admit that I completely missed it my first time through.
And Amanda caught the otataral=blood oil thing the first time through, too. Great catch. It was kind of cruel how Karsa told that Teblor female that he didn’t want to know her name, he’d just call her Dayliss; but Karsa does have a way (and a kinda brutal honesty) with the ladies.
Amanda, I do agree with you that I also felt that this was a very odd and difficult (and quite disturbing) start to a Malazan novel, especially following MoI. It’s reassuring to know that it wasn’t just me. Just keeping on reading, it will get easier… er, better.
I will say that I do like how Erikson once again lets us know that this is not going to be your typical, light-hearted fantasy series. This world is cruel and harsh and oppressive and ugly and bad things happen to “innocent” people. And he is not yet done :-)
Bill@2 – These are high quality rereads, so I’m glad you guys didn’t rush them.
rg@3 – I agree that experiencing HoC made the complete switch of MT easier to commit to and soldier through. Erikson had proven that there was a payout to the shock of introducing all new characters, setting, etc.
shalter@7 – Yeah, I admit that I find the bloodswords fascinating. I admit that I gave the existence of such a weapon a huge it’s-fantasy-after-all benefit of the doubt, but I still found the effectiveness of the weapon pretty impressive.
Tek@10 – I also could not stand Karsa at the beginning of HoC. I also remember suspecting that Erikson was trying to do this on purpose and would try to get me to at least not dislike Karsa by the end of the book. I swore that I would not fall prey to such an obvious, manipulative ploy. So much for that vow :-) I agree that he is a difficult, complex character that I now find fascinating and somewhat appealing. At least, in a fantasy novel.
ahhh…Karsa. finally.
Karsa reminded me of some of my favorite characters from TV series. Al Swearengen from “Deadwood” comes to mind. somebody you just hate at first, but grows on you by the end. I also think it important to remember empathy here — Karsa is a product of his environment for good or ill. His environment will change (drastically)…judge him on how he reacts to the change!
One of the things that I love about Karsa is his belief that nothing is out of his reach. He says he is going to do something because he believes that he can…he does “come in” to the series here with out trying to get people to like him but its were he goes that is the great part.
This book was an oh, oh, what book did I skip? I checked the flyleaf to see the book order and was completely dumbfounded to see , yeah, right order. This felt like was dropped into a different series.
Dismal, dark, and lots of gore but SE is giving us primitive man bumping into civilization. I first thought as others, that the children were really children, but then I realized these were a normal “man sized” people.
Karsa, to me, is being set up as a kid who has a long, long way to fall and a long, long way to climb to be who he really needs to be. He’s got the “wrong” mindset for people in this age, IMO. However, if you tossed him into, say, a Viking or ancient Celtic tribe, he’d not be that far out of place. Karsa is SE’s reminder that not everyone comes from a “civilized” way of life. In fact, Karsa and his reactions to civilization are critical to his life journey. He has a different moral code, one that will change, but not in expected ways.
YEAH HOC !!!!
Bill, I loved the way you laid out the questions in this post. This was great! Thanks!
As for the Seven and their being T’lan Imass…I suspected that on my initial read when, right after Karsa left the glade after praying and Erikson wrote “Seven figures rose from the ground, skin wrinkled and stained dark brown over withered muscles and heavy bones…” I have said before that any time I see a dust whirl or anything rising from the dirt, I immediately think of T’lan Imass and this was certainly true here. When the Seven rose from the ground, I automatically assumed T’lan Imass.
KARSA….unlike many people seem to react to him, I did really like him on my initial read and I liked him from the beginning of this book. Yes, he is brutal by our standards and by the standards of the other peoples and races we have met thus far, but not for a Teblor. I saw him as naïve certainly, but not even so much naïve as so totally ignorant. His entire universe consisted of basically an area around his village that could be travelled to/from within a day or two. We know this because we are told here in chapter one that he expects to reach Silver Lake within a week, two at the most, and that no Teblor from his tribe had travelled that far since his grandfather had made the trip over 400 years ago. His tribe had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Yes, Karsa is at times as naïve and as irritating as Kiska, however, for me the difference I saw with Karsa was the potential.
Ahhhh, here in chapter 1 SE introduced a character with so much POTENTIAL that I sucked up every second of every Karsa scene from this point forward. SE brings Karsa out of the “land that time forgot” and into the “world” and if he doesn’t always react to a situation the way a “civilized” being would react, I was more than happy to forgive him that. For me, it is always just a pleasure to watch Karsa interact with the world around him, to experience life in all its strangeness and wonder, and see what growth there may be and what parts of the Karsa we meet in these first couple of chapters he is able to keep as he is thrust forward in the series.
Has there ever been a character with so much POTENTIAL?
:-)
@bill
This scene in the village continues in the highly disturbing vein. That said, I’m not so sure the women (those first two at least) are feigning eagerness. Anyone else?
I don’t think they were feigning but on the other hand they weren’t exactly willing. The implication is that one effect of exposure to blood oil is overwhelming sexual arousal.
The character of Karsa reminds me strongly of Howard’s original Conan . They’re both illustrations that being a barbarian and starting out naive and unfamiliar with the wider world is not at all the same as being stupid. They’re perfectly willing to take advantage of being stronger and faster than others but it’s not what defines them. They’re also both portrayed as having an elemental drive such that they can be discouraged, they can be defeated, but they can’t be broken.
New member here
I have read the series all the way to the Crippled God and caught up on the re-reads at a frantic pace.
Would you believe that my first book in the series was the House of Chains? In the places I have been, you read what you get! The references to warrens and drowned lands were mystifying enough. Then came my introduction to Karsa – a bombastic, vain, insensitive loud mouthed orc. I nearly quit reading then and there.
Bill and Amanda, commendations on this excellent re-read. It looks like a lifetime work as I am sure there will be a further 10 books written by the time you reach TCG. I like the reasoned and well written comments from the community and I hope I can contribute
Blood oil = otaral? Wow, that went right over my head
Karsa@12
Thanks–now I can’t get the image of Al Swearengen (one of my all-time favorite TV characters in one of my all-time favorite shows) walking around Deadwood yelling “Witness!” to all and sundry . . . Thanks . . .
the idea that Karsa is a character from a “non-civilized” way of life, akin to a Viking or Celt is true, but I also like how Erikson even in the pre-growth part of Karsa’s story shows us the problem with such generalities as when we get to the “civilized” folks in the next chapter, they in some ways fail to meet the moral standards of the Teblor
Robin@16–can’t believe I left out the whole rising from the ground, which I specifically recall as planning to list as my first “here’s a big clue.” Sigh. Thanks for noting it. And a nice description of him (I like the “land that time forgot” line), though I have to say I didn’t care much for him at first blush. I’m not even sure I care much for him now, though I appreciate his growth and many of his scenes.
His insular life to this point reminds me of two aged nuns I met in a tiny town in Ireland. They asked me where I was headed and when I told them two or three places I’d be going to next, each of them no more than 10-20 miles away (I believe I actually walked to my next one), they nodded their heads and said they’d “heard” they were nice places, “course, we’ve naver been there ourselves”
Harai–bloodoil certainly does have that effect clearly, but I’m not sure the women ever got a true dose of it to have that effect on them–especially those first two explicity labeled “eager”
I like your comparison to Conan. Going with that, I might phrase it slightly differently–that being stronger and faster does define them (or at least Karsa) in their own minds while they remain in their original, insular society where many (if not all or even most) see that as how its people are defined, and it would continue to do so if they stay there. But once they are placed outside that society, and experience begins to redefine them and/or the original definition doesn’t encompass the experiences, then that limitation begins to erode, and so Karsa can remove the shackles or blinders he/his society has placed on him, freeing him to grow beyond his society and himself into, as Robin puts it, his “potential.” If that makes any sense . . .
And that’s a good closing description of Karsa–that elemental drive and refusal to be broken
Woohoo, House of Chains. An interesting thing to note (this is a fairly confirmed rumour) is that SE wrote the beginning of HoC specifically to counter a fairly common criticism that he was unable to write a single viewpoint for any extended period of time. Karsa is definitely an.. interesting.. choice to use though ;)
Personally I was very confused when I started this book, but Karsa didn’t irritate me nearly as much as what he seems to irritate some other readers. Maybe because I really didn’t understand a lot of what was going on (the moments that things eventually clicked into place were awesome), maybe because Karsa is fairly unusual and I was curious to see where his story was going. Plus someone threw a bear skull through a horse. Sometimes you just need to put the confusion on the backburner and enjoy how well Erikson can write action. in addition, I think a big distinction should be made between naive and stupid, since Karsa is the former but most definitely not the latter. We see in this chapter that he is not just a muscle-bound barbarian, but also fairly conversant in guerilla tactics and psychology in addition to having fairly solid long-terms goals and plans on how to acheive them. Bairoth is probably a bit smarter, but his main counterpoint is that he has a much better understanding of how the world actually works. What makes Karsa so interesting is the naivety coupled with incredible capacity and determination. A seven on one fight that deliberatly lets someone go free to warn the others would seem foolhardy to the extreme, but Karsa really just can’t fathom a situation where he won’t come out on top. At this point standard tropes would call for a great falling and a climb back into enlightenment for him, but knowing how SE tends to turn tropes back in on themselves it makes one very curious as to where things are going from here out.
I don’t think revealing the seven gods are actually T’lan Imass is much of a spoiler, I was kicking myself for not realising when I reread the chapter. The clues are fairly thick and heavy – Amanda picked up way more than I did the first time through. I think anyone else who has been following this reread and giving the books the same level of attention should also have made the connection.
Re bloodoil exposure – we see some women later who are exposed to bloodoil and the chief’s wife explains its effects in this chapter. Eagerness doesn’t even begin to cover it. I think the apparent eagerness is partly the women knowing that it will make things easier for them, partly a product of the society that they live in. Despite the fact that they are getting raped, you do get the impression that getting with child from someone who is a great warrior is a bit of an honour and we’ve been told that Karsa and co are fairly badass even for Teblor.
For those of you who HAVE read the book already, I highly recommend you check out this plot summary:
http://forum.malazanempire.com/index.php?showtopic=22008
@Amanda: Man, you were on fire connecting all the dots in these two chapters. I didn’t catch the Otataral link until about two or three chapters later when it’s almost spelled out! And yes i’ve been reading ahead, am almost at chapter eight :-)
That’s pretty much how I feel about it. I don’t like Karsa at all in this first chapter!
@bill:
I completely agree, I noted it down in the next chapter, but it’s absolutely chilling and it makes it even harder to like Karsa.
I guessed T’lan Imass from the start, so I don’t think you’re getting ahead of yourself!
It’s funny reading back my notes for the prologue and first chapter, because some of the questions I asked (and would usually ask here) have already been answered further on in the book and I just realised how many of my questions in previous reread posts were RAFO’s!
And of course the other half of my questions have been already clarified by Bill or in the comments, which just leaves me to note, that Erikson manages to insert another couple of star animals in his narrative; I love Havok and Gnaw and the rest of the pack!
@17
Thats a really good description of Karsa.
As you say, the thing that truly defines him is his singular will, his absolute knowledge that things *will* go the way he expects them to.
And frustratingly for .. well .. almost everyone, they pretty much do.
The other thing is that he really isn’t stupid. He starts off pretty slow on the uptake, but once he finds his feet, he continuously suprises everyone with little revelations of insight.
Witness indeed.
Also, could we maybe get an idea of what the reread chapter break-down is going to look like? According to the little bar at the bottom of my Kindle, the first three chapters are pretty hefty and thereafter they are all considerably smaller. So maybe four posts for the next two chapters, thereafter two chapters a week? Or if people feel that doing each of the next two chapters in a post each is manageable we might look at speeding up the reread a touch, maybe three chapters a week (two for Wed, one for Fri) from the fourth chapter onwards?
Re:Children.
The glee with which Karsa hungers to kill the ‘children’ is also in stark contrast to one of the themes of Deadhouse Gates–“Children are dying.”
The death of children in DG is one of the refrains for identifying the bad things–the absence or antithesis of compassion.
Karsa is indeed a barbarians barbarian. He is the outsider to civilization. He is the wolf in the fold.
:/ over all this is my least favorite book in the main series
I think Reaper’s Gale is my least favorite of the books.
Midnight Tides and Toll the Hounds are my tops. I apparently give massive points for experimentation.
I think anyone who has only read HoC once needs to give it a chance on this re-read. I was underwhelmed the first time I read it through but I appreciated it a lot more the second time through.
Karsa is difficult to appreciate when you don’t know anything about him, but the second time through is more rewarding.
I don’t think anything should be read into the “children” killing that the Teblor refer too. It will become clear what they mean by it if it hasn’t already.
Kudos to Amanda for connecting so many dots on initial read. I know that I most certainly did not.
I absolutely hated Karsa the first time I read through this book. For the longest time as I read the first part of HoC I wondered why Erikson was forcing me to spend time with this ugly brute whose sole purpose in life was to find glory in killing and raping. Towards the middle of the story arc I noticed I was continuing to read only in the hope that he will meet his comeuppance, and as it went on and I was wishing that Erikson would just put him out of my misery. One poster above has revealed the identity of Karsa (major spoiler, I think), but in the book his identity is only revealed towards the end of the Karsa story arc when he meets up with a character we had met earlier in DG. Up to that point, I couldn’t see where the story with Karsa was going and how it fit into the series, and it contributed to my frustration. Now, after a couple of re-reads I no longer hate Karsa Orlong, but I still find it hard to like him. HoC remains one of my least favorite books in the series.
Good thoughts on Karsa. I did grow to “appreciate” him thoughout the books, but “like”? I don’t know about that. Respect, maybe.
It strikes me that Karsa is perhaps the only truly “black and white” character of SE’s. Very little gray here. He grows and learns about the world, because he isn’t stupid, but his own internal moral code is pretty clear cut.
Witness!!
Karsa is a Billy Badass! One of my favorite characters.
Yes I find getting into the new characters and areas difficult and sometimes slow, but once you get to know the characters, it’s all worth it and makes rereading all the more rewarding.
So many good characters in new regions yet to come, who also have their slow starts…
@29 Black and white how? Maybe i’m misunderstanding you here, but I still don’t think you can classify him as being either ‘good’ or ‘bad’. He is violent and a borderline sociopath, but at the same time he has a lot of intergrity and little deceit. His own view of the world is fairly black and white (is that what you meant?) and he’s straightforward about it – it makes for an excellent counterpoint against some of the other characters in the series.
I like reading about him and wasn’t dismayed ant any of the times we see him again in the series. I think that’s fairly different from actually liking the character, I wouldn’t want to have a drink with Karsa in a bar. I think it’s actually a very hard line for an author to walk – someone for whom the reader has very little pathos and is still an engaging character.
night owl@14:
Please read this whited message:
.
You posted a Major Spoiler for Amanda on Karsa’s later identity, something we only find out at the last chapter of this part. I know this may seem rich coming from me, but this is one in the league of saying WJ gets killed in MoI. Please edit, for Amanda’s sake, because this is an ‘Oh!’ moment in this book. ;-)
.
On topic: I never disliked Karsa, although he did start out as the stereotype of a Barbarian. Still, in the dialogue between Karsa and his compadres, you see they are not stupid.
As he developed more, he became one of my favourite characters in the series. :D
The Prologue part got me ‘meh’ the first time I read it it, but after reading MT and then reading this again, it fit so well…
amphibian@26:
…but Beak’s in Reaper’s Gale?!
Re: HoC
As others have mentioned, we’ve got another hard open from Erikson, straying far afield geographically, culturally and stylistically from MoI. Descending from the immense integrity of the players at the end of that tale to the thuggish, loudmouthed blathering of Karsa is just…well, I’ll be nice and call it a challenge. Seems most everyone agrees, to various extents. Having said that, SE sure can write a story. Even about warmongering brutes like Karsa.
I’m actually having more trouble with Karsa on a reread, the advantage of reading quickly these books when 14-15 is that you get caught up in the Conanesque fantasy nature of his viewpoint and tale and don’t stop to think about just exactly what he’s doing/planning to do. That said despite the fact that at the moment he’s really a very unpleasant character he has one of the best journeys in the series so looking forward to following it through again.
Also as I recall people often posted quotations from the next chapter the day before and so assuming we’ll be hitting Chapter 2 tomorrow here’s one that raised a smile:
“A low altar caught Karsa’s attention. Some lowlander god , signified by a small clay statue – a boar, standing on it’s hind legs.
The Teblor knocked it to the earthen floor, then shattered it with a single stomp of his heel”
@33: I think I’m the only person alive who didn’t care a whit for Beak. Maybe it just seemed to obvious and manipulative to me, I dunno. And maybe that’ll change on the reread.
I still intend to finish commenting MoI when I have time but I’ll try to go along here as well or my lagging behind would just increase. At 100+ pages a week I still won’t be able to keep up, though, so at some point I’ll leave this re-read for a longer while and rejoin at a later point when you’ll probably be at Reaper’s Gale when I’ll be back commenting HoC. Reading and commenting in detail 100+ pages a week eats all my reading time and doesn’t allow me to do anything else.
About the Prologue:
I think Amanda did a good job picking the various threads without trying to nail down their position in the puzzle yet. These books work better if someone takes the parts for what they are more than trying to do the guesswork and try to see what’s coming ahead. Patience pays back, usually.
All these “pieces” of the Prologue match up perfectly if someone remembers a certain scene in MoI that nails the frame. Specifically, it was just before Paran went to visit Draconus in Dragnipur for the second time. He appears right on Drift Avalii and in front of the true Throne of Shadow. If you go re-reading that scene you’d see all the pieces that build the Prologue having a corresponding parallel in what the “throne” reveals to Paran. The “Search” for example is mentioned in that scene, as well in the hidden story of the Moranth. Same for the “hidden master”, etc… So this is not a whole new beginning, it’s actually well rooted in what we’ve already seen. In fact, this is a strong theme, if not the main one, of the whole novel and especially its first part. Things that appear as completely new that instead hide something quite “familiar”. The twisting of appearances. Misdirection of the purest kind, driven by limited point of view.
After the sprawling and “all in” attitude of MoI one wonders how Erikson would deal with the following book. He does seeking a contrast. Where the other was written large and stretching out to embrace everything, this one is instead local, enclosed, limited. But this “contrast” is not a stylistic vanity. It’s actually THE POINT. This is my favorite book among the first four and the reason is how everything is so purposeful and focused, in a way. There are no whims and it is a generous book.
So, THE POINT. It is again the approach that is defined by being local and limited. What you are going to see (and the five pages of the Prologue make a perfect use of the pattern) is something you already know, but seen from a skewed, limited perspective that makes it look completely different and twisted. You got the eagle’s eye perspective, and now you are thrust in the “down below” limited perspective and things are completely different. You, as the characters of the book, feel lost or can’t recognize what you see for what it is. This aspect then being further enhanced with Karsa’s story that works like an onion, stripping layer after layer, reveal after reveal. Whereas MoI opened up the mythology, HoC initially gives the illusion of new, unknown pieces added to the puzzle, only to then “reduce” them and fitting in the frame you already have. So instead of going in a tangent, it actually builds the link between the pieces and makes them work together.
“The point” being this closed perspective that is then rocked through reveals. Masks that are dropped to reveal familiar faces. All self-contained, in the sense that page after page you lift veils in close succession, and in 150 or so pages Erikson condenses all he’s done in previous books, making it all more effective and explicit, without digressions. With a good pay off right away, instead of being indefinitely delayed.
Even the black-shelled crabs in the first paragraph are part of this pattern. They represent a “lower realm”, unaware of what happens around them. What they recognize is the sudden “bounteous feast”, but they know nothing of what caused it, or what may be about to happen. Nor they question it. They are a temporary fold of oxygen in the story that could thrive or vanish in a whim. Which is the idea that Erikson plays with in the Prologue. The Nature suddenly turning and “shaking” the world. A flood that reshapes the world as well the “life” caught within. And again a play on perception, as the limited perspective is like a boat as big as a grain of sand that is caught on tides it can’t control (or can only momentarily control, with the illusion of eternity).
Within that, and still in the Prologue, Erikson plays with two other ideas. One is how a group will build its own convenient truth and find strength or approval within it. So the Shorning of Trull is a crime, but a crime with no guilt, as those people have built their truths and their morals. Because they are all relative, and will be manipulated in order to find an unity of vision. Which is always a dangerous thing. The premise and justification for all crimes.
The second idea is about Nature (here set in motion by sorcery, so pushed to its extreme by use of the fantasy setting while the idea is wholly universal). If you go look at the end of the book (and it’s not really a spoiler), the last part of the Epilogue, in italics, returns to the same theme. Ideally the story is closed in a circle as Erikson is used to do. The ending goes back to the start and completes it. That ending is also extremely powerful from my point of view.
The idea in the prologue works on different levels and is played by Trull that way. The imbalance that Nature fights is mirrored by the imbalance in the level of water between one side of the wall and the other. So again a play on limited perceptions. Trull’s brothers chained him to the wall thinking he’ll be there, kept alive by sorcery, for a very long time. But Trull realizes that the wall is going to eventually collapse. Then lifts this idea to what his brother are and their “Search”. He sees through the “blindness”, even though, tragically, this awareness is bitter and is not leading to any kind of salvation.
And who’s the “prisoner”, Trull being chained to the wall, or his kin and the lies they walk upon and enclose their perception?
And this is what took me to comment superficially five pages (not commented about the timeline issues, where the river could come from, what’s this realm, what kind of civilization was here, why the rent suddenly closed etc…).
@14
I first thought as others, that the children were really children, but then I realized these were a normal “man sized” people.
I think this is a slight inconsistency since Heboric had a vision of Karsa’s victims and they looked like children (to him). Now, it makes sense that from Karsa’s own perspective normal people look like that, but to Heboric they should have looked like normal. So this didn’t make a lot of sense.
Ab @@@@@ 37
Unless, of course, Heboric had the vision through Karsa´s eyes, and then, they would have looked like children again. Question of perspective. Do you have that passage handy somewhere, to check ?
No, but it should be easy to find. They meet Karsa toward the end and this happens before Felisin becomes Sha’ik.
Anyway, even if it could be explained it still seems pointless obfuscation. The scene could have worked the same if Heboric saw grown men. And it’s not a “projection”, as Heboric was seeing ghosts, and ghosts don’t depend on someone else’s perspective.
IIRC, the children referred to in the vision are those that would never be born thanks to Karsa killing their parents. so, actual children, not ‘children’ as karsa sees them.
@33, Thomstel,
I am suspicious of characters that I am “supposed” to like. Storytellers know what appeals to their audiences and can construct protagonists that we like on a base level – and that allows them to get away with fudging this bit or fumbling that bit. It’s why my favorite character in the series is not Tehol, Whiskeyjack or Cotillion. It’s Iskaral Pust, who is brilliantly written and manages to overcome his inherent tendencies to offput (the mumbling, the ugliness, the inexplicable knowledge and the barminess).
The directions to Mappo in Deadhouse Gates is my single favorite bit of the books. I can see generations of fantasy fans coming up with increasingly more complex mathematics to make it “work”.
Here, like SaltmanZ, I thought Beak came a bit too manufactured for my particular tastes in Reaper’s Gale. A candle burned perhaps too fast for my eyes…
He did not see them at all. Only the dogs.
Guys, I was wondering if we could avoid some pretty major spoilers in the future for the newer readers.
I’m speaking of both Karsa’s identity and the ‘children’ issue. If I recall, the children bit is not revealed yet and we’re jumping ahead. I remember being really pleased with the way SE had written it so you don’t realise the true meaning until Karsa confronts some of them, but I fear that pleasure’s been spoiled for others.
The same for Karsa’s identity, for obvious reasons.
I always got the feeling that Karsa was a Conan deconstruction. And don’t expect a whole lot of change from him. He’s loathesome to begin with and moves on to unlikable.
I think this is the book where I started questioning spending time reading Erickson.
Mark @43: Did you stop or did you read the rest of the series and not enjoy it?
If the former I think you made a mistake, although I accept that not everyone likes MBotF.
I don’t know why everyone hates Karsa so much. He’s unlikable sure, but it’s not personal as much as it is cultural. The things he does don’t seem to be that out of the ordinary for the Teblor. It’s Teblor culture that’s deplorable, not Karsa himself. Though he maybe makes it worse by his naivete and extreme self-belief.
@43, Mark,
I echo djk1978 in saying that your statements about Karsa are a bit of a head-scratcher. He undergoes considerable change during the series. Did you skip all of the Karsa parts from here on in during your read?
Fiddler:
Mea culpa! I had forgotten that he did not give his name in Deadhouse Gates, and as we had all read it I figured that no one had commented on it yet. I would say that this reread leads to a confusion as to when facts are known and how the brain interprets its placement in the story. I will simply stop commenting since this is my second boo-boo.
night owl@@@@@ 46: Don’t stop commenting. All people are really trying to do is preserve those “Oh.. hey… wait… wow!” moments for those people reading the series for the first time. So just be a little cautious, but I don’t think anyone wants you to stop sharing your thoughts and opinions.
Hey Night Owl, please don’t stop commenting. But could you white out the spoiler please?
@Capetown:
I can’t get the whiteout to work- but delete does.
Hey man, don’t stop commenting please. I didn’t mean ik like that. It’s not the end of the world ;-)
As for how to get the whiting out to work, there is a glitch with whiting out while editing. Skip the preview part and just hit post and it should work.
Also after each edit of a post that has whiteout’s in it, the whiting out disappears again, so you have to do another edit.
In total I had to edit my earlier post about eight times :-s
Alt146@31:
…but at the same time he has a lot of intergrity and little deceit. His own view of the world is fairly black and white (is that what you meant?)
Yes that’s what I meant …not good and evil, but the way he makes his decisions…it’s all or nothing, it fits his moral code or it doesn’t. Period. Thankfully, his understanding of the world does expand and thus he has more information on which to base his decisions.
I’m reading the Malazan series for the first time, and I too have found this book extremely difficult to get into. I haven’t quite finished chapter one yet, but took a peek at this re-read any way in the hopes it would reassure me that the book will get easier. (I had also peaked ahead and saw tha the entirety of the first part of the book will be with karsa.)
Glad to hear things improve…I will continue to try to slog through the rest of Chapter 1.
Now I’m just 9 months after the most recent poster! Woo hoo, I’m catching up! First want to state that I LOVE Karsa and was fascinated utterly by him from the first page of his POV. What does that say about me!
Since I didn’t see anyone make this comment – wanted to add:
Since Erikson is known for overturning SciFi / Fantasy tropes – Karsa works in an interesting way against the cliche of wide-eyed innocent from isolated, small village who sets off on an adventure. Usually this type of character is solidly founded in morality – perhaps moreso than any others in the world – is innocent and naïve and ultimately so much more civilized than anyone else (think Bilbo, Frodo, Rand alThor and the rest). This makes him ideal to save the world. He’s the light towards which we all move.
Here Karsa is from an isolated town – a young “man” setting out on his first big adventure with his two companions – but he turns out to be a bipedal wrecking ball that many would hesitate to grant self awareness to!
I just love Erikson! Fangirl… down!
endertek@53:Karsa does overturn the happy innocent with lots of morality trope, but at the same time (at the start) fully embraces the “savage barabarian” out to loot and pillage trope. I’ll leave it at that until you get a bit later in the book/comment thread.
Started House of Chains today. Wow. Unlike almost everyone else it seems, I very much like the beginning of this book. I find Karsa to be a very, very interessting, thrilling character. Great scenes so far with him. I even think, it’s the best beginning of all of the Malazan books that I’ve read so far (1-3 of Steven Eriksons and Night of Knives by Esslemont), at least for my own personal taste.
Looking forward a lot now to spend my reading time with this Teblor named Karsa Orlong. Looking forward a lot to witness his Doings :-).
hehe. WITNESS!
Love the character of Karsa as a re-reader, but don’t remember anymore if I did from the very start or not.
Guess I love his bold self confidence, even if the acts he does in the beginning are loathsome.
Good call Albalieno. For those of you who want to reread Paran’s visit to the Throne of Shadow, its chapter 23, scene 4 where that happens (after they find the Edur body crushed by pressure)