During his recent Shadows of Self tour, Brandon Sanderson read an in-progress excerpt from the third Stormlight Archive book, and we’re pleased to share it with you now! If you missed Brandon on tour this time, be sure to keep an eye out for future events—who knows what extra goodies await us all!
The excerpt below is from the beginning of the book’s first flashback chapter, when Dalinar is a young man. It contains no spoilers for either The Way of Kings or Words of Radiance, so dive right in!
Rockbuds crunched like skulls beneath Dalinar’s boots as he charged across the burning field. His elites tromped behind him, a handpicked force of soldiers both lighteyed and dark. They weren’t an honor guard. Dalinar didn’t need guards. These were simply the men he considered competent enough not to embarrass him.
Around him, rockbuds smoldered. Moss—dried from the summer heat and long days between storms this time of year—flared up in waves, setting the rockbud shells themselves aflame. Dalinar charged through the smoke, trusting in his padded armor and thick boots to protect him. Flamespren, like tiny people made of fire, danced from one burning patch to the next.
The enemy—pressed by his armies from the north—had pulled back into this town just ahead. Dalinar had held himself back, with difficulty, from entering that initial clash. He’d known the real fighting would take place in the town.
He hadn’t expected the enemy to—in a desperate move—fire this plain, burning their own crops to block the southern approach. Well, no matter. The fires could go to Damnation for all Dalinar cared. He led his men in a charge, and though some were overwhelmed by the smoke or heat, most stayed with him. They’d crash into the enemy from the south, pressing them between his men and the main army.
Hammer and anvil. His favorite kind of tactic: the type that didn’t allow his enemies to get away from him.
As Dalinar burst from the smoky air, he found a few lines of spearmen hastily making ranks on the southern edge of the town. There were remnants of a wall, but that had been torn down in a contest a few years back. Dalinar had forgotten the town’s name, but the location was ideal. A large ridge to the east made a natural break from the storms and had allowed this place to sprawl, almost like a real city.
Dalinar screamed at the enemy soldiers, beating his sword—just a regular longsword—against his shield. He wore a sturdy breastplate and helm along with iron-lined boots. The spearmen ahead of him wavered as his elites roared from the smoke and flame, shouting a bloodthirsty cacophony.
A few of the spearmen dropped weapons and ran. Fearspren, gobs of violet goo, wriggled up en masse around the enemy rank. Dalinar grinned. He didn’t need Shards to intimidate.
He hit the spearmen like a boulder rolling through a grove of saplings, swinging his sword and sending limbs into the air. A good fight was about momentum. Don’t stop. Don’t think. Drive forward and convince your enemies that they’re as good as dead already. That way, they’ll fight you less as you send them to their pyres.
As he waded among them, the spearmen thrust spears frantically—less to try to kill him, more to try to push away this madman. Their ranks collapsed, and many of the men turned their flanks to Dalinar’s men, focused only on him.
Dalinar laughed, slamming aside a pair of spears with his shield, then disemboweling one man with a sword deep in the gut. The man dropped his spear in panic, trying to grab at his entrails, and his allies backed away at the horrific sight. So Dalinar came in swinging, catching the two off balance, killing them with a sword that bore their friend’s blood.
Dalinar’s elites decimated the now-broken line, and the real slaughter began. Dalinar pushed forward, keeping momentum, shearing through the ranks until he reached the back, breathing deeply and wiping ashen sweat from his face. A young spearman fell before him, crying, screaming for his mother as he crawled across the stony ground, trailing blood. Fearspren mixed with orange, sinewy painspren all around.
Dalinar shook his head, picking up a fallen spear and striding past the youth, slamming it down into the boy’s heart as he passed. Men often cried for parents as they died. Didn’t matter how old they were. He’d seen greybeards do it, same as kids like this one. He’s not much younger than I, Dalinar thought. Maybe seventeen. But then, Dalinar had never felt young, regardless of his age.
His elites filled in behind him, having carved the enemy line in two. Dalinar danced, shaking off his bloodied blade, feeling alert, excited, but not yet alive. Where was it?
Come on…
A larger group of soldiers hiked down the street toward him, led by several officers in white and red. Dalinar could see from the way they pulled up, alarmed, that they hadn’t expected their spearmen to fall so quickly.
Dalinar charged. His elites knew to watch, so he was followed by a force of fifty or sixty—the rest had to finish off the unfortunate spearman ranks. Fifty would do. The crowded confines of the town would mean Dalinar shouldn’t need more.
As he neared this newer force, he focused his attention on the one man riding a horse. The fellow wore plate armor obviously meant to re-create Shardplate, though it only of common steel. It lacked the beauty, the power, of true Plate. He still looked like he was the most important person around. Hopefully that would mean he was the best.
The man’s honor guard rushed to engage, and Dalinar felt something stir inside him. Like a thirst, a physical need.
Challenge. He needed a challenge, storm it!
He engaged the first member of the guard, attacking with a swift brutality. Fighting on the battlefield wasn’t like in the dueling arena; Dalinar didn’t dance around the fellow, testing his abilities. Out here, that sort of thing got you stabbed in the back by someone else. Instead, Dalinar slammed his sword down against the enemy, who raised his shield to block. Dalinar hit in a series of quick, powerful strokes, like a drummer pounding out a furious beat. Bam, bam, bam, bam!
The enemy soldier didn’t have an opportunity to mount a counterattack. He clutched his shield over his head, putting Dalinar squarely in control. Dalinar kept hitting as he raised his own shield before him and shoved it against the man, forcing him back until he stumbled. The man’s shield shifted, letting Dalinar’s sword come down at an angle and bite him in the upper arm.
The shield dropped completely. This man didn’t get a chance to cry for his mother.
Dalinar let his elites handle the others; the way was open to the brightlord. Not old enough to be the highprince. Some other important lighteyes? Or…didn’t Dalinar remember something about a son mentioned during Gavilar’s endless planning meetings? Well, this man certainly looked grand on that white mare, watching the battle from within his helm, cape streaming around him.
Dalinar pulled up, swiping his sword eagerly, breathing in and out. The foe raised his sword to his helm in a sign of challenge accepted.
Idiot.
Dalinar raised his shield arm and pointed, counting on at least one of his strikers to have lived and stayed with him. Indeed, Jenin stepped up, unhooked the short bow from his back and—as the brightlord shouted his surprise—shot the horse in the chest.
“Hate shooting horses,” Jenin grumbled as the beast reared in pain. “Like throwing a thousand broams into the storming ocean, Brightlord.”
“I’ll buy you two when we finish this,” Dalinar said as the brightlord fell backward, tumbling off his horse. Dalinar dodged forward around flashing hooves and snorts of pain, seeking out the fallen man. He was pleased to find the enemy rising.
Dalinar came in swinging. The brightlord managed to get his sword up, but Dalinar batted it away, then dropped his own shield completely and came in with a two-handed power swing, intending to knock the lighteyed soldier back down. Fortunately, the man was good enough to recover his stance and intercept the blow with his shield.
They probably heard the subsequent crack all the way in Kholinar. Indeed, it vibrated up Dalinar’s arms.
Momentum. Life was about momentum. Pick a direction and don’t let anything—man or storm—turn you aside. Dalinar battered at the brightlord, driving him backward, furious and persistent. The man withstood it admirably, and managed a surprise feint that caught Dalinar off guard. It let the man get in close to ram Dalinar with his shield.
Dalinar ducked the blow that followed, but the backhand hit him solidly on the side of the head, sending him stumbling. His helm twisted, metal bent by the blow biting into his scalp, drawing blood. He saw double, his vision swimming.
The brightlord, smartly, came in for the kill. Dalinar swung his blade up in a lurching, full-shouldered blow, slapping the brightlord’s weapon out of his hands.
In turn, the brightlord punched Dalinar in the face with a gauntlet—and Dalinar’s nose crunched.
Dalinar fell to his knees, his vision blurry, sword slipping from his fingers. His foe was breathing deeply, cursing between breaths, winded by the short—frantic—contest. He fished at his belt for a knife.
An emotion stirred inside of Dalinar. A fire that filled the pit within. It washed through him and awakened him, bringing clarity. The sounds of his elites fighting the brightlord’s honor guard faded, metal on metal becoming clinks, grunts becoming like a distant humming.
Dalinar grinned. Then the grin became a toothy smile. His vision returned as the brightlord—who had just retrieved his knife—looked up and started, stumbling back. He seemed horrified.
Dalinar roared, spitting blood and throwing himself at the enemy. The swing that came for him seemed pitiful and Dalinar ducked it, throwing his shoulder against his foe and shoving him backward. Something thrummed inside of Dalinar, the pulse of the battle, the rhythm of killing and dying.
The Thrill.
He knocked his opponent off balance, then reached for his sword. Dym, however, hollered his name and tossed him a polearm, with a hook on one side and a broad thin axe on the other. Dalinar seized it from the air and spun, ducking the brightlord’s swing. At the same time, he hooked the man around the ankle with the axehead, then yanked.
The brightlord fell in a clatter of steel. Before Dalinar could attack further, unfortunately, the honor guard became a bother. Two had managed to extricate themselves from Dalinar’s men, and came to the defense of their brightlord.
Dalinar caught their sword strikes on his polearm and twisted it around, backing away and slamming the axehead into one man’s side. Dalinar ripped it free and spun again—smashing the weapon down on the rising brightlord’s head and sending him to his knees—before coming back and barely catching the remaining guard’s sword on the haft of the polearm.
Dalinar pushed upward, holding the polearm in two hands, sweeping the guard’s blade into the air over his head. He stepped forward until he was face to face with the fellow. He could feel the man’s breath.
Dalinar spat blood from his shattered nose into the guard’s eyes, then kicked him in the stomach. He turned toward the brightlord, who had scrambled—again—to his feet and now was trying to flee. Dalinar growled, full of the Thrill, and swung the polearm in one hand, hooking the spike into the brightlord’s side, and yanked, dropping him a third time.
The brightlord rolled. He was greeted by the sight of Dalinar slamming his polearm down with two hands, driving the spike right through his breastplate and into his chest. It made a satisfying crunch, and Dalinar pulled it out bloodied.
The blow seemed a signal of sorts, and the honor guard and other soldiers finally broke before his elites. Dalinar grinned as he watched them go, gloryspren popping up around him like glowing, golden spheres. Damnation, it felt good to best a force larger than your own.
The Thrill, unfortunately, dwindled. He could never seem to hold on to it as long as he wanted. Nearby, the man he’d felled groaned softly. Dalinar stepped over, curious, kicking at the armored chest.
“Why…” the man said from within his helm. “Why us?”
“Don’t know,” Dalinar said, tossing the polearm back to Dym.
“You… You don’t know?” the dying man said.
“My brother chooses,” Dalinar said. “I just go where he points me.” He gestured toward the dying man, and Dym rammed a sword into the hole in the breastplate, finishing the job. The fellow had fought reasonably well; no need to extend his suffering.
Another soldier approached, handing Dalinar his sword. It had a chip in it the size of a thumb right in the blade. Looked like it had bent as well.
“You’re supposed to stick it into the squishy parts, Brightlord,” Dym said, “not pound it against the hard parts.”
“I’ll keep that in mind,” Dalinar said, tossing the sword aside as one of his men selected a replacement from among the fallen of high enough rank to have one.
“You…all right, Brightlord?” Dym asked.
“Never been better,” Dalinar said, then sucked blood up through his broken nose. Hurt like Damnation itself.
His men formed up around him, and Dalinar led the way further down the street. Before too long, he could make out the bulk of the enemy still fighting up ahead, harried by his army.
He halted his men, contemplative.
Thakka, captain of the elites, turned to him. “Orders, sir?”
“Raid those buildings,” Dalinar said, pointing at a line of homes. “Let’s see how well they fight while they see us rounding up their families.”
“The men will want to loot,” Thakka said.
“What is there to loot in a hovel like this?” Dalinar said with a shrug. “Soggy hogshide and old rockbud bowls?” He pulled off his helm to wipe the blood from his face. “They can loot afterward. Right now I need hostages. There are civilians somewhere in this storming town. Find them.”
Thakka nodded, shouting the orders. Dalinar reached for some water. He’d need to meet up with Sadeas, and—
Something slammed into Dalinar’s shoulder. He caught only a brief sight of it, a black blur that hit with the force of a roundhouse kick. It threw him down, and pain flared up from his side.
“An arrow?” he said, blinking as he found himself lying on the ground. A storming arrow sprouted from his right shoulder, with a long, thick shaft. It had gone right through the chain.
“Brightlord!” Thakka said, kneeling, shielding Dalinar with his body. “Kelek! Brightlord, are you—”
“Who in Damnation shot that?” Dalinar demanded.
“Up there,” one of his men said, pointing at the ridge above the town.
“That’s got to be over three hundred yards,” Dalinar said, shoving Thakka aside and standing. “That can’t—”
He was watching, so he was able to jump out of the way of the next arrow, which dropped a mere foot from him, slamming against the stone ground. Dalinar stared at it, then started shouting. “Horses! Where are the storming horses!” Had the fires delayed them?
No, fortunately. A small group of soldiers had guided them more carefully across the fields, but had caught up by now. They came trotting forward as Dalinar’s order was passed, bringing all eleven horses. Dalinar had to dodge another arrow as he seized the reigns of Fullnight, his black gelding, and heaved himself up into the saddle.
He galloped back the way they’d come in, trailed by ten of his best men. There had to be a way up that slope… There! A rocky set of switchbacks, shallow enough that he didn’t mind running Fullnight up them. Dalinar was more worried that by the time he reached the top, his quarry would have escaped.
He eventually burst onto the top of the ridge; an arrow slammed into his left shoulder, going straight through the breastplate, and nearly throwing him from the saddle.
Damnation! He hung on somehow, clenching the reins in one hand, and leaned low, watching ahead as the archer—still a distant figure—stood upon a rocky knob and launched another arrow. And another. Storms, the fellow was quick!
Dalinar jerked Fullnight to one side, then the other, feeling the thrumming sense of the Thrill return, driving away the pain. Hooves made a clatter on stone as another arrow zipped past his face, dangerously close. Ahead, the archer finally seemed to grow alarmed, and leaped from his perch to flee.
Dalinar charged Fullnight over that knob a moment later, jumping the horse after the fleeing archer, who turned out to be a man in his twenties wearing rugged clothing. Dalinar had the option to run him down, but instead galloped Fullnight right past and kicked the archer in the back, sending him sprawling. Dalinar pulled up his horse, then turned it about to pass by the groaning archer, who lay in a heap amid spilled black arrows.
Dalinar’s men caught up as he climbed roughly from the saddle, an arrow sprouting from each shoulder. He seized the archer, who had finally struggled to his feet and was scrambling—dazed—for his belt knife.
Dalinar turned the fellow about, noting the blue tattoo on his cheek. The archer gasped and stared at Dalinar, covered in soot from the fires, his face a mask of blood from the nose and the cut scalp, stuck with not one but two arrows.
“You waited until my helm was off,” Dalinar demanded. “You are an assassin. You were set here specifically to watch for me.”
The man winced as Dalinar gripped him hard—an action that caused pain to flare up Dalinar’s side. The man nodded.
“Amazing,” Dalinar said, letting go of the fellow. “Show me that shot again. How far is that, Thakka? I’m right, aren’t I? Over three hundred yards?”
“Almost four,” Thakka said. “But with a height advantage.”
“Still,” Dalinar said, stepping up to the lip of the ridge. He looked back at the befuddled archer. “Well? Grab your bow!”
“My…bow,” the archer said.
“Are you deaf, man?” Dalinar snapped. “Get it!”
The archer regarded the ten armed elites on horseback, grim-faced and dangerous, before wisely deciding to obey. He picked up his bow and a few arrows, then stepped hesitantly over to Dalinar, giving one glance to the similar shafts that were stuck into him.
“Went right through my storming armor,” Dalinar muttered, shading his eyes. To his right, the armies clashed down below, and his main body of elites had come up to press at the flank. The rearguard had found some civilians and was shoving them into the street.
“Pick a corpse,” Dalinar said, pointing toward an empty square where a skirmish had happened. “Stick an arrow in one, if you can.”
The archer licked his lips, still seeming confused. Finally he took a spyglass off his belt and studied the area. “The one in blue, near the overturned cart.”
Dalinar squinted, then nodded. Nearby, Thakka had climbed off his horse and had slid out his sword, resting it on his shoulder. A not-so-subtle warning. The archer contemplated this, then drew his bow and launched a single black-fletched arrow. It flew true, sticking into the chosen corpse.
“Stormfather,” Dalinar said, lowering his hand. “Thakka, before today, I’d have bet you half the princedom that such a shot wasn’t possible.” He turned to the archer. “What’s your name, assassin?”
The man raised his chin, but didn’t reply.
“Well, either way, welcome to my elites,” Dalinar said. “Someone get the fellow a horse.”
“What?” the archer said. “I tried to kill you!”
“Yes, from a distance,” Dalinar said, letting one of his men help him up onto his horse. “Which shows remarkably good judgment, since the ones I get close to tend to end up very dead. I can make good use of someone with your skills.”
“We’re enemies!”
Dalinar nodded toward the town below, where the beleaguered enemy army was—at long last—surrendering. “Not anymore. Looks like we’re all allies now!”
* * *
For the full tour experience, you can watch Brandon read the Dalinar chapter excerpt during his recent appearance at Google!
Nice. I’m excited, even if we have to wait for more.
Now That Is the Blackthorn! Man I cant wait to see how that, turned into the Dalinar we know!
The Thrill is sounding a lot like a Parshendi rhythm here…
ChocolateRob @3 – Isn’t it, though? That’s exactly what I was thinking!
We see some small hints of modern Dalinar. The sparing of the assassin who was competent, mostly. This was easily 20+years in the past, Dalinar was early 20s, no more than 25 here, since he’s “in his fifties ” in WoK
Yes, that is the Blackthorn. I was on the third sentence when I remembered, wait, this Dalinar won’t be the one you are used to. Then I was intrigued, because I knew this is when Blackthorn started to build his reputation. And, as always, Brandon doesn’t disappoint.
It will be interesting to see him prior to Gavilar’s murder and to know what was his boon from the Nightwatcher. And can’t wait to read what’s the deal with the archer. Should I already recognize him? Not yet?
Young Dalinar scares me! I’m going to love seeing the change from this man to the Dalinar we know now.
It just gets better and better. Does Dalinar already have some proto-radiant ability to use stormlight to heal? Or is he just that freaking tough that having an arrow in each shoulder is no big deal? Because any arrow that can penetrate chain mail at 300 yards has got to have some serious mass.
I am quite intrigued. Dalinar is quite different, and I can see why he has such a reputation. I’m also curious about Dalinar’s elite guard; I didn’t recognize any of the names off the top of my head. And I think the archer is going to turn out to be someone noteworthy. I guess we’ll see…
I was lucky enough to hear Brandon read this on his tour. He said this was based on a story about Genghis Khan. The story about Khan may just be a legend, but it really happened to Dalinar.
I LOVED it. Young Dalinar is just…. awful. How could anyone ever think Adolin takes after him? They have nothing in common, that is obvious in this chapter where they are about the same age.
This is a very good excerpt, much better than the Kaladin one we got early on. I think I am never going to enjoy reading flashbacks more than in book 3.
@10
It does sound like the stories you hear about the Mongolian Khans they used those who are useful, otherwise you died.
So speculation on 17th Shard is that we likely have met the archer in the other books. The blue tattoo on the cheek is reminiscent of an Oldblood soldier under Dalinar’s command…
@13 It looks like Teleb….
The relentless slaughter, the rhythm of the fight, reminded me Szeth’s assassination interludes.
During the Thrill Dalinar turns into the Bloody Nine. I love it.
@14 – I agree, that is the most likely choice. It would be cool to see a little more of Teleb’s backstory with Dalinar as well, even though he doesn’t make it through the end of WoR.
IIRC, Brandon said before the reading that this was 30 years ago, which would make Dalinar about 20. That fits with his thought that the officer wasn’t much younger than himself – maybe seventeen.
(I’ll have to check my recording and check on exactly what he said about the timing.)
Supposedly, Jebe shot Genghis in the neck during the battle of the thirteen sides in 1201. Genghis Khan’s forces still won the battle and when the wounded Khan asked who had shot him, Jebe freely admitted it. The Khan was quite impressed with both his skill and honesty and so he made Jebe one of his generals. He would be one of Genghis Khan’s most loyal and successful generals.
Calling it now. The archer is a young Torol Sadeas. He favored a big bow in WoK.
@20 Sadeas is already mentioned in the chapter. :)
Ugh. So he is.
Yes, young Dalinar is a force of nature. So this is why his face is “unfortunate”.
What I find most interesting about this chapter is the fact that his “Elite” were both Light eyed and Dark eyed. So, even then, he had a habit of giving everyone a fair chance for advancement. Kaladin was not the first Dark eyed soldier allowed to hold a position of rank in his army.
@23: Which is great, but it does not erase the sheer brutality he displayed here. Not only was he glad he got to kill those people, he revealed in it, bath in its glory while not even knowing who they were or why he had to kill them…
Well yes, there is that. I was trying to look past the brutality.
Dark Dalinar.
Dalinar in this scene is a young General with a ‘lead from the front’ command style and a penchant for bloodlust and berserker tendencies. Note that his slaughter is in the context of the battlefield, fighting against enemy combatants trying desperately to kill him. It looks bad because the enemy is completely outclassed despite having superior numbers, and that he is s weapon wielded by his brother, not caring about the cause in which he fights. The round up of civilians and non-combatants is also troublesome and is certainly not excusable, but I feel that the rest of it is fine. It’s not his fault that he’s better at warcraft than his enemies, and often soldiers fight without knowledge of the big picture. He shows no prejudices when it comes to the people he lets stay close to him, merit alone is the test. As far as being bloodthirsty, well some people fight with passion, others fight cold. What we saw in thos scene was no atrocity, just an enemy action that shows the Blackthorn at his most deviating. He would be terrifying to fight against and a trump card as an ally. I’m sure there will be scenes in the next book that show Dalinar at his worst, his most reprehensible, but this ain’t one of those scenes. Feel free to disagree.
EvilMonkey @@@@@ 27 – what Dalinar did, rounding up civilians and using them as hostages, the Japanese did that during World War II. That was over 70 years ago.
That said, not even 25 years ago, during the first Gulf War, when George H. Bush was president, Saddam Hussein did the exact thing. He had women and children surround him in this palace.
I am unsure if it was the reason why George H. Bush did not give the green light to storm the palace. It is a known fact that US troops were already there and there was enough firepower to do it.
Back to World War II, the US did not have to drop the second atomic bomb. Japan would have surrendered with just one. The second bomb was dropped just because. :-(
Hindsight tells us that these three things were wrong. And I am in that category,
Still I am not judging Dalinar here and his tactics. He is a warlord, I am not second guessing his style simply because Roshar does not have the Geneva Conventions. We have them but look at what is still happening.
Sheiglagh,
Dalinar rounding up the women and children of the villiage is definitely not cool. Inexcusable even in the context of war, maybe especially in the context of war. That was a relic of pre-industrial revolution style war that I wish could have stayed there. It isn’t right when it happens IRL either. That’s the only problem I have with Dalinar in this scene, the only part that isn’t awesome, but its a big part. Still, product of his environment.
@27: The problem with young Dalinar is not the fact he has superior fighting skills, it is his attitude. He demands bloodshed, he wants to slaughter them and not simply because the village is “next on the list”, but because he yearns to feel this destructive power. He does not even bother to find out why he is fighting or even who he is fighting, he is simply content to be a massive tool to be used and crush an “enemy” who did not even know why they were being attacked. He also had no respect for his enemies, laughing at those who dare cry for their mother as they died.
He was a horrible person and most of his actions cannot be excused by the feeble excuse of they are at war. He does not even know why he is at war. Neither do we as the event happened years before he war on unification so why in the seven kingdoms where the Kholins set to destroy this village?
Their also is no excuse to round up the women and the children: these are among the most despicable war tactics to be used. It made me think of the old movie the Patriot when they were all locked into a burning church to die…
The only redeeming quality I see in this younger Dalinar is his ability to recognize worth, no matter where it comes from.
It will be interesting to see when Dalinar begins to change. The key moment was supposedly the assassination of his brother but was he still the bloodthirsty maniac until then? Was it just sticking to the codes that transformed him to sober statesman we’ve seen or was there something else?
Maybe the “Thrill” is addicting? It seems to impart a sense of euphoria. It dulls pain. It gives one an adrenalin rush. Dalinar behaves like an addict, doing whatever is necessary for a fix. He seeks the Thrill. He revels in the Thrill. When it leaves him he tries to get it back. But even after it has passed, he is able to keep going despite his injuries. It is a drug. He will later become restless, itching for the next battle, and go wherever his brother leads him for a fix.
Later, when Fighting the Parshendi, battle seems to sicken Dalinar. He no longer acquires the thrill. He is no longer susceptible or addicted. I suspect he has begun using stormlight, and it has healed him. It has similar attributes to the Thrill, granting strength, endurance, and wound healing, but it is more wholesome.
@31: Dalinar did say he has started following the codes after Gavilar’s death and Gavilar himself did not start to follow them until shortly before he was killed.
It can therefore be assumed Dalinar was this blood crazed often drunk maniac for the most part of his life, which makes me wonder about his wife… My thoughts are he “sobered” down for a while as he did his first trip to the West, enough to marry a woman, enough to have his sons, as Navani did state how her calm attitude balanced Dalinar perfectly. However, when she died, he lost it again and went warring again which led him to this event, abut 8 years ago where jealousy for Gavilar nearly prompt him to kill his brother. That was, I believe, his first wake-up moment as I also believe his boon to the Nightwatcher was to get rid of this crippling jealousy. After that, he mellowed some, but still spend a lot of time hunting or warring or drinking.
I am sorry for the boys mostly… was their father truly there for them when they were growing up? I get the feeling they were both sheltered from the Blackthorn’s worst deeds, though Adolin speaks of how Dalinar changed after Gavilar’s death and how it crushes him to see his father so depressed. Sometimes, I think Dalinar may have had a double personality, one with his family and one on the battlefield as if the Blackthorn was an alter-ego that needed to get out of him from times to times until he managed to finally learn how to control it.
@32: Maybe the Thrill is additive as you say… but we never saw Adolin seek it so actively… Never like that… when he saw the fearspren, he dropped it immediately while Dalinar was just more enthralled to see them pooling at his enemies’s feet.
Not everyone is susceptible to the addictive potential of drugs.
To Many – I will put “The Thrill” as an adrenaline rush. I know we use the term adrenaline junkie as a metaphor most of the time, but I do believe that it exists. I’m not very familiar with sports personalities so I don’t really have a point of reference. Still, being addicted to adrenaline is real.
Taking that into consideration, if that is the case, then the adrenaline rush also happens when military men and women are in battle. That means this happens IRL though we don’t call it The Thrill. Chances are our men and women in uniform, those in law enforcement, etc call it a different name.
EvilMonkey @@@@@ 29 and Gepeto @@@@@ 30 – Again, history shows a different picture. Going back to the first Gulf War, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf a.k.a. Stormin’ Norman who led the U.S. to victory during the First Gulf War resigned from his post because George H. Bush did not want to explain to him his actions. The President just told him that he is the Commander-in-Chief and as a soldier, Stormin’ Norman has to follow.
Going back 60 years, President Truman relieved Gen. Douglas MacArthur of his duty when MacArthur disagreed with Truman about the brewing Korean War. Truman said, I am the Commander-in-Chief and you will follow.
For Dalinar to say that he is just following Gavilar’s orders and don’t ask questions, that is very true up to today in today’s military. We can all sit here and write and complain and say that it is so unfair and so morally wrong. But the truth is, when you are in the military, no matter how high your rank is, you are at the mercy of a CIVILIAN Commander-in-Chief.
In the same token, we can all say that Dalinar using women and children is morally wrong, yet we look at our own history like the Crusades and currently, the terrorism perpetuated by Muslim extremists and we just accept them. We disagree of course, but that is all we can do unless we all join the military and fight. Which of course, defeats the purpose.
What I’m trying to say that we are judging Dalinar’s actions based on this. We do not know the circumstances that led to this moment. I’m not siding with Dalinar. I’m just saying we should reserve our judgement.
Back to reality. Hindsight tells us that MacArthur is right. The US should have not even been part of the Korean War or the Vietnam War. As MacArthur said, “we should not fight a land war in Asia.” Those words were true during the1950s and still partly true today.
As for Stormin Norman and George H. Bush, I still don’t know. The US has not declassified that incident yet.
The Crusades – it is another grey area. As for today’s terrorism, I disagree with it wholeheartedly because we are living it. I hate what had happened with air travel. I want our freedom back but of course it will never come back. But, perhaps 200 years from now, when we are all gone, history would have judged us and our opinions today will not matter. Sad, isn’t it?
@35: Gavilar did explain to Dalinar why they were attacking this village: Dalinar did not care to listen. He was privy to the war councils, he just did not think it was important enough to listen. I don’t care how modern military is organized, this isn’t modern day military, but I do care that Dalinar was given the opportunity to take an active part in the planning, to actually know why he is being used and he spit on it because he just didn’t want to make the effort.
I also don’t care if using women and children as hostages is currently used by some groups across the world or if it was used at some other point in time in the history: it is wrong, mean and plain despicable to have so little empathy you see fit, as a general, to use those who can’t defend themselves as a leverage. A greater man would have refused such tactic.
There is also no way modern day military can justify Dalinar’s actions as Dalinar’s actions are not justifiable. War hardly ever is justifiable unless you are being unjustly invaded, that may be the only case where war may be warranted.
The Crusade are not a grey area, they are an unwarranted war that killed thousand for no other reason than glorification of ones religion. They have no excuse for the carnage they have caused. It all goes back to the same thing: money, power and one people who feel they are more rightly, more justified to rule them all. The Kholins have essentially behaved this way when they decided to unite Alethkar.
In the excerpt we have seen, Dalinar is not defending his land. He is the aggressor. He is happy to be the aggressor and he fought like a mad beast without any respect towards those he killed. Had he been a good person, he would, at the very least, felt sorry he has to kill so much, he would at least give the fallen a modicum of respect instead of laughing at them and he would not have thought to use children as hostages.That man was NOT a good person and the one redeeming quality he has shown, praise of talent, does not erase the rest.
So as far as we know, he had no valid reasons to be the beast he was. His enemy does not even know why they are attacked, so I can’t think of a least justifiable military action than the one where the attacked do not know why they were targeted. I may reserve my judgment, but we all know young Dalinar was not a nice human being. This confirms it. Old Dalinar speaks on how wrong he was. That’s enough for me. That man I saw was a monster, but he was a lucky monster as he ended up on the wining side, so he got a free-pass for his war crimes.
Based on what I have read of this series and some of the bonus materials on various blogs I have made some assumptions. Maybe Alice can help since she’s a beta reader.
Back during the times of the Desolation up until the Recreance, the Alethi people seem like the War College of the fight against the Voidbringers. Most of the stock of soldiers came from that particular kingdom. Their people were given the gift of the Thrill to ease the trauma that comes with fighting, killing and death. Over time Odium corrupted the Thrill and the tool became a destructive drug. Adolin is only half Alethi so he isn’t as susceptible to the drug as a full Alethi would be. When Dalinar starts using Stormlight it seems to act much like Chantix to a nicotine addict. Chantix makes cigarettes taste horrible and sickening, Stormlight makes the Thrill unpalatable. As we see when we’re in Sadeas head, he lives for that thrill high and is willing to destroy what he helped build (a unified Alethkar) to continue feeding his addiction.
A couple things. A warlike people with no outside cause to fight for will turn inward to satisfy that urge to battle. Historically we’ve seen it with Sparta, with Rome in the republic period, with Alexander’s empire, with the Mongols, a bunch of examples Brandon could have modeled the Alethi after. Dalinar is a product of that environment. He is playing to his strengths. Yes he was privy to the war council, yes he could have learned why they were fighting, but that’s politics, not his strong suit. Politics are indirect, a polar opposite to his personality. He wants an objectice to accomplish. Knowledge of the why is not necessary for him to achieve his objective. You can blame him for his attitudes, his arrogance but he treats his enemies with as much honor as his worldview allows. Also, the Alethkar pre-unification was like the wild west. Everyone fought everyone. He may have been the aggressor in this particular scene but you can be sure he’s fought some defensive actions. I mean, even as the kingdom is supposedly united, the highprinces are still at war back home. The most important soldiers are on the Shattered Plains, but the minor soldiers are fighting an ongoing civil war in the rear. Kaladin became a soldier in Sadeas army, and he honed his skills fighting other Alethi, just from another princedom. The life they lead is one of war, and in war dehumanizing the enemy is a regrettable part of that. Contempt of the enemy is a part of that. His actions in context are not bad, just a part of his environment. I will say again however that still doesn’t excuse the round up though.
@@@@@ Gepeto,
Young Dalinar was a monster, no denying that. But I would argue that they all were. The Kholins as well as their enemies. Penalizing him because of his adeptness in carnage is a bit unfair.
@38: The problem I have, I guess, is we are not seeing anyone behaving in such a monster-like in current time Stormlight. I mean, we do have Sadeas and Amaram, but they are the bad guys… Our good guys are very different. Again, it is not his adeptness in carnage I critic, but his desire to create it.
I like your argumentation in @37 though. It is true warring societies will seek to create conflicts even where they are none. It is also true it is likely the Kohlins were also attacked as often as they attacked others, but the attitude. I can excuse the fact they attacked this village, but I can’t excuse the round up and the laughing at poor dying people crying for their mother…
I still think Dalinar’s actions, even if in line with his world’s morality, hardly are justifiable. What is interesting is older Dalinar do disagree with younger Dalinar. IMO, I still love older Dalinar, and I love to hate his younger version. What a complex character. Fascinating.
As for the Thrill, the only POV we have of characters experiencing the Thrill are both Dalinar and Adolin. Both react very differently to it. Dalinar feels energized, justified in his killings and yearns for more. When he starts to lose it, he is slower to kill, he hesitates and he starts to feel sorry for he dead. Adolin experiencing the Thrill is different though. He feels more fool-hardy, he takes brash decisions, but he does not display the seer arrogance and blood-thirst of young Dalinar. Seeing fearsprens are enough to make him lose it while Dalinar, at roughly the same age, revealed in seeing them. Also, when he loses it, he feels tired and disgusted to the point where he stops fighting all together: he drops his Blade.
It would be interesting to get a third view on the Thrill…. perhaps one of the soldiers?
I have no idea if the Thrill is linked to Alethkar as we do have inklings Veden feel it as well, but it is interesting to think Adolin being only half-Alethi may have influenced his less stringent reaction to it.
EvilMonkey @@@@@37 – Well, I can’t help on the beta-reader basis, because I haven’t read anything you haven’t at this point (except Bands of Mourning, which doesn’t really have any bearing here). However, I’d say that your assumptions make sense to me. We know the Alethi were the one nation to whom was given the responsibility of maintaining knowledge of the arts of war between Desolations, and I really like the idea that the Thrill was originally a gift which was later corrupted. Unprovable as it is currently, the idea that susceptibility to the Thrill is genetic is a really cool idea. I like it, and it explains why Adolin’s reaction is so much different than Dalinar or Sadeas, the only other characters who have talked about it. And I love the idea that Stormlight makes the Thrill unpalatable!
Gepeto @@@@@39 – While we see Sadeas and Amaram as the bad guys, we should also remember that Sadeas, at least, is “an Alethi of Alethi” – his attitudes and actions are totally typical of Alethkar for the last how-many-hundred years. Amaram, too, is highly regarded among the Alethi, even though much of his time has been spent fighting other Alethi. Dalinar as the Blackthorn was feared and respected, epitomizing the Alethi value system. Current-time Dalinar, with his honor and his Codes, is the weird one. At the time of this flashback, he was every bit as much a typical Alethi as Sadeas, Gavilar, Amaram etc. To be Alethi was to fight, and the better you fought –implying the better you killed—the better you were. Tradition and religion come together to glorify the warrior, with everyone else a distant second in prestige. Sure, we find it distasteful – as we should – but we should also be fair to 20-year-old Dalinar and recognize that he has not yet been exposed to the Codes and has no reason at all to perceive anything he’s doing as inappropriate. He’s just the best of the best, according to their standards.
Also @@@@@ many – we should note that he is rounding up the civilians as hostages, not necessarily as cannon fodder. The point is to make the town surrender. We can guess that this hotheaded young Dalinar wouldn’t particularly hesitate to start executing the civilians if the army tried to call his bluff, but we don’t know that, and he doesn’t say.
One more point: people keep talking about how awful it is that Dalinar laughs at the soldier crying for his mother. May I suggest that you read it again? It says nothing of the sort. He merely notes that many men cry for their parents as they die, greybeards as well as kids like this. And then he puts the kid out of his misery with a spear to the heart in passing. No, he doesn’t show much compassion – but I don’t see him laughing, either.
@35 Sheiglagh,
Missed that post (darn phone browser!), my bad for not responding. Anyway, Norman and Douglas were every bit political creatures in addition to being very highly ranked officers. In the modern military, at least for the U.S., political aspirations go hand in hand with the position. How many highly ranked officers have become presidents? Washington, Jackson, Grant, T. Roosevelt, Eisenhower. There may be others that escape me at this time, but countless others have retired to find themselves cabinet positions or Congressmen. Dalinar is not a political creature. He is a Statesman currently but as we see from the flashback that is not his normal inclination. He’s had to work hard at it but he will probably never be brilliant at it. He’s going to have to outsource the job to someone he trusts implicitly to turn in anything other than a servicable performance in the political arena. Jasnah would do nicely I think. That being said, he trusts his brother to be political, his strength. Dalinar feels that wherever his brother aims him is the right decision, thus freeing him to do what he does best, being a weapon of mass destruction. You will not see that level of trust anywhere IRL between a head if state and a General/Admiral in this day in age, nor do I think it was particularly common in the past.
As far as the hostage round up, it is a despicable tactic and one I wish were gone forever. Whether Dalinar would have slaughtered them all or just held them for leverage makes no difference to me. As a fighting man I would never use that tactic or follow an order from a superior who wanted that tactic used. While I am aware that the Geneva Conventions do not exist on Roshar or in real life during, say, the Crusades, the reason that set of laws exist is so that all nations at war do not commit the atrocities of the past. Bottom line, there are too many ways for that situation to go prickly pear-shaped for me to be comfortable with anyone using the practice.
@40: Without the Thrill Adolin proved to be an inapt soldier while Dalinar was still functional even if less effective. I had often wondered about that, thought my thoughts have usually been Adolin just does not naturally have the stomach for warfare, an idea re-emphasized by his disgust over hunting. He needs the Thrill to dumb his senses while conducting dishonorable murders. After all, he didn’t want to become a soldier, unlike his father. Adding a genetic component to it is indeed interesting. Sadly, while Sadeas did talk of the Thrill, we never had a POV scene from him while being in a combat situation. It would be neat to have other examples.
As for Stormlight making the Thrill unpalatable… If it were true, then it would imply Adolin was drawing Stormlight towards the end of WoR and we know he weren’t. He took too many physical hits (and complained about them) in that fight to have been taking in Stormlight even in the slightest amount. We know Dalinar was using it, unconsciously, and it made him be a temporary match to Szeth. Adolin marveled at how fabulous his father was, but… we also know Adolin is the better swordsman: he should not have been impressed by his father, not in such way, but more importantly, he does not do as well. He can’t hardly fend Szeth and would have been decapitated if not for this unknown “duck” command which came from we don’t really know where.
So Adolin being disgusted by the warfare and not feeling the Thrill can’t be linked to Stormlight. I think it was just him growing out of it, on his own. I’d thus say it is unlikely, but I like the genetic idea.
For the rest, I’d say we need more ligheyed POV. I want to see how others truly are… Those we saw did not seem this terrible: Roion and Sebrarial comes to mind. Hatham is said to be quite honorable, he has a Rhysadium and Brandon said we should be paying attention to him which I interpret as he is one of the minor KR in becoming.
I’m the one who talked about Dalinar laughing at the dying soldier. Alright. Perhaps he was not laughing, but he was being contemptuous. I felt as if he thought is was stupid to do so as if he would be above this… Of course, he did not say this, but I could almost read his thoughts there… I hated seeing Dalinar this way because older Dalinar saw a Parshendi kid died and he was horrified.
However, as I said earlier, I loved hating it.
“I felt as if he thought is was stupid to do so as if he would be above this… Of course, he did not say this, but I could almost read his thoughts there…”
That’s just it. You read it that way, but others could equally legitimately read it in very different ways. I think we should be careful about imputing motives and thoughts based on our own reactions, and then stating them as facts.
@43: Hmmm I get your point, but it seemed so obvious, to me. Here I was shaking negatively my head… Oh Dalinar. I know you have it in you to not be this jerk. What happened to you?
Makes me wonder about the Kholin patriarch… the one who suffered from delusions… Who was he?
@40 Wetlandernw, while you have a point about young Dalinar fitting into the Alethi warrior culture, he carries that warrior tradition to an extreme. He deliberately seeks out situations where he faces death in order to evoke the Thrill of combat and killing. It’s more than skill and bravely; it’s a form of insanity. With others it could suggest a death wish, but we might be reluctant to impute that unconscious motive to Dalinar. The suggestion made in this forum that he is addicted to the Thrill has merit, I believe. He certainly seeks out situations and adversaries where it could be generated. At this point in his career and life, I would rank him as morally superior to Sadeas who appears to have always been skeptical and suspicious of people (other than the Kholin brothers), whereas Dalinar surrounds himself with talented warriors of whatever class and prior affiliation. On the other hand, he may not be superior to Amaram who also rewards talented warriors except when it appears to conflict with his ideological goals. Of course, Dalinar later undergoes a radical change in behavior and becomes one of the ‘good guys’ while Amaram continues to merely play the role of ‘honorable’ person until he is exposed by Dalinar. I should add that Shallan has also undergone a personal redemption from her father’s strangler and would-be thief to a rather selfless pursuer of her mentor’s mission. In her case, the thrill of danger is more like an adrenaline kick rather than something associated with Odium and his creatures.
@45: I did not read young Dalinar as seeking death, though I can see why other people may read it this way. I read him as being merely petulant and cocky.
I’m not sure what to make of the back and forth in the comments about Dalinar’s actions. There is no need to excuse them; this version of Dalinar was the warlord, not the hero. The actions, as shown, are supposed to make us uncomfortable. They are wrong. This version of Dalinar was not a good guy. There is no need to seek to make excuses for him. This isn’t the Dalinar we’ve come to know from later in his life. And that is fascinating. I’m very much looking forward to this book.
It occurs to me to contrast the dying soldier calling for his mother with the messages from the dying in WoK.
My main reaction to this chapter seems to be to compare it to the other books.
Video related: Brandon’s ducky / dragon shirt is so cute! Anyone know where to get one?
I enjoyed his comments on the Korean language. Seems like that was his launching place for both the Alethi language, and Amaram’s private use of his modifying the script.
Comments:
I feel that many of the commenters are trying to judge Dalinar based on our modern concepts and customs. While we can be horrified by the atrocities of war, to judge a basically medieval warlord by our standards is pretty … naive? Arrogant? Culturally unaware? I can’t think of the right term. Yes, there are many horrors which happen in our modern world – yet, most Western Europeans and North Americans are in a very privileged place. We don’t deal with these types of horrors regularly.
As a medievalist, I see his actions as pretty run of the mill. Honorable in their own strange way.
The goal of a medieval battle was to live. And make sure the other guy didn’t come to fight you again. A major tactic was to “unarm” your opponents. As in, cut off their hands or arms. If the men lived through the blood loss & “medical treatment”, they sure were not coming back after you as a solider.
The hostages – also, honorable in his own way. They were not put to the sword. The men were not allowed to rape. The hostages were not beaten. They were not flung with a catapult over the walls of the next town. They were not given disease infested blankets for warmth. I do not believe they were turned into slaves.
There are a number of things Dalinar could have done with the hostages that could be considered “unforgivable.” The act of taking them hostage in the first place? Not so much. On the sliding scale of “horrors” this is a fairly mild example.
The Crusades has been mentioned. From the Western perspective, it was a set of distinct wars. We have even numbered them. From the Middle Eastern perspective, it was several centuries of unrelenting warfare and occupation by a set of terrorists.
Thanks Pope Innocent III – you were a real “gem” of a Pope. The Atethi would approve of his selfish and warmongering ways.
@Braid_Tug
I agree that Dalinar could have done much worse things. But just the possibility of doing something even worse does not make doing something else ‘not bad’. The badness of an act (or the goodness) stands on it’s own, in my view
To use that example – Dalinar could allow his his troops to rape but not kill the women – and say, “So what? At least we leave them alive!”
And exactly that kind of argument has been used to defend exactly these kinds of atrocities. You could escalate the horror endlessly and keep defending yourself with “At least I’m not doing X.”
On the other hand, if taking hostages induced the soldiers to surrender rather than being slaughtered, what you do with them afterwards makes ALL the difference. Consider a few of the possibilities:
a) You leave the civilians alone, but you kill all the “soldiers” fighting you (whether they are trained or not), leaving the town populated by women, children, and the elderly, prey to whatever bandits come along. (Assuming you don’t allow your men to loot, rape, or otherwise devastate the civilian population.)
b) You take the civilians hostage; then when the soldiers surrender, you kill, rape, or enslave all the able-bodied men, women, and older children, leaving the town semi-populated with small children and the infirm, prey to whatever bandits are desperate enough to want whatever you’ve left after your men have looted it out.
c) You take the civilians hostage; when the soldiers surrender, you require oaths of loyalty from the entire town, and remove the best of their weapons, horses, etc. You leave the town more or less intact, with a reduced but non-zero ability to defend themselves against basic banditry.
Of course there are lots and lots of other possible permutations, and we could argue until the cows come home about what we think 20-year-old Dalinar would have done. However, it should be obvious that merely taking hostages doesn’t inherently prevent a relatively positive outcome for the town, compared to various other possibilities. It absolutely depends on what you plan to do with them once you’ve got them.
@51: Well, we do know they did intend to loot…
“Raid those buildings,” Dalinar said, pointing at a line of homes. “Let’s see how well they fight while they see us rounding up their families.”
“The men will want to loot,” Thakka said.
“What is there to loot in a hovel like this?” Dalinar said with a shrug. “Soggy hogshide and old rockbud bowls?” He pulled off his helm to wipe the blood from his face. “They can loot afterward. Right now I need hostages. There are civilians somewhere in this storming town. Find them.”
And Dalinar was fine with it, but he wanted to round up the hostage before the men went to loot. The excerpt indicate one of his goals was to stop dispirit what was left of their fighting force. What he intended to do afterwards is unclear.
We can, of course, speculate as to what looting men would have done to the women they encountered. After all, it happened often enough in history, but we have no way of knowing if this specific story will go this way. However, we can be reasonably be sure Dalinar’s men intended to pillage the town and Dalinar was not going to prevent them from doing so.
So awesome! This book can’t get here soon enough!
After rereading the excerpt again, I have to echo certain sentiments that @49 made.
I feel Dalinar is being judged incredibly harshly here. We’re “seeing” a very narrow portion of this battle and we’ve been given little context. Now Dalinar *is* pretty fearsome here and is definitely no angel, but based on the morals and values we’ve seen exhibited in Roshar (and specifically, by the Alethi), his actions don’t seem unusually atrocious or deplorable.
Dalinar’s goal was to win the fight. He gloried in the violence, he may have seemed somewhat maniacal at times, but he was fairly well driven to achieve the objective that was given to him. A couple of quick examples:
Dalinar shoots the horse of a mounted rider, despite the fact that horses are rare and quite expensive. His goal was to defeat his opponent.
Dalinar orders the elites to round up the families of the soldiers as hostages “to see how well (the enemy) fights while they see us rounding up their families,” but Dalinar forbids his men from looting at that time. Again, his goal is to win the fight. He was given an objective and he’s doing what he feels is necessary to achieve it.
Some other points:
-Dalinar mentions that there were “endless planning meetings” where it is likely all types of information was presented, not all of which he chose to retain. However, he did recall hearing about a highprince or his son. The fact that a highprince or his son was there at the battle (along with Dalinar’s quick mention that the town’s location was ideal and had sprawled “almost like a real city”) implies this was a rather important battle and a rather important objective. He was brutally effective in achieving this objective.
-After defeating the unidentified brightlord (possibly the son of the highprince) Dalinar tells his foe he doesn’t know why he’s fighting them at this particular time, and that “my brother chooses.” But his previous thoughts have already shown that he is relatively aware of who he is fighting and why the location is important. It’s possible that he says all of that to give a certain impression to others, or just as part of his battlefield bravado. It could just be banter. After all, in the next bit of dialogue one of his elite hands Dalinar back his sword and says “You’re supposed to stick it into the squishy parts, Brightlord.” I think the reader can be skeptical about taking any of what’s said at that point as 100% literal.
-Finally, Dalinar was able to see the bigger picture. Even in the midst of the battle (after his scalp was cut, his nose was broken and he was shot twice by arrows) Dalinar was able to identify that the archer is a unique talent, and he adds him to his elite. Assuming that the archer is Teleb, Dalinar selected an ally he would learn to trust and respect so much, he would ultimately give him a full set of Shards.
I agree that younger Dalinar wasn’t the nicest person in the world, obviously. He’s significantly different than older Dalinar, who a lot of readers like and respect. But I question whether he is completely the monster that some are making him out to be. He was accomplishing his objective. Arrogantly and viciously (I can honestly state that I really don’t like this version of Dalinar). But also rather efficiently and effectively.
You guys do realize this is just a book, right?
Dan @55 – Sshhhhhhhh… That’s heresy, you know…
*Glares at Dan*
Blasphemer ! Bind him and prepare prepare the inquisition!
; b
@54 Problem with young!Dalinar is that he enjoys the whole business too much. If you compare him to old!Dalinar or Adolin, he’s much more lustful about killing people. It seems to go beyond just wanting to win or taking pleasure in a job well done. I get the feeling young!Dalinar doesn’t care about winning the battle or keeping his people alive or even just a well-executed plan. His only motive for fighting is to prove himself better than the other guy, preferably by killing him. His enjoyment of the battle is an end in itself and that’s really kind of disturbing.
I much prefer characters who approach warfare with a craftsman’s attitude. It’s not about enjoying the fight or killing your enemy; it’s about doing what needs to be done while losing as few of your people as possible. To them, the best battle is one where the enemy is defeated without them taking the field.
@58: Yes this is exactly it. His behavior go beyond that of a dedicated war general. He enjoys the killing, he wants the challenge, he requests it.
It’s the blood-lust.
And yes, it is disturbing.
@@@@@ 58 Noblehunter and 59 Gepeto
You’re right. And the sheer juxtaposition between Young Daliar vs. older makes me wonder just how much control over the mind and personality the Thrill consumes.
They don’t even read like the same people. Old! Dalinar is thoughtful and cerebral. He’s still a talented and dogged fighter and unquestionably intimidating but Young! Dalinar seems like nothing more than a stupid thug in many ways. As though the Thrill was forcefully shutting down or at least severely inhibiting his Amygdala.
Once he starts reading and questioning, he starts fighting the Thrill until it makes him nauseous and he eventually rejects it altogether–not unlike a body fighting off an infection.
Not to say that he isn’t fully guilty or culpable for his actions, just that Nergaoul and/or Odium seem to be going out of his way to corrupt Alethi fighters–and people like Dalinar in particular–to keep them from becoming potential threats.
@60
Stupid thug might be a bit strong here. Young!Dalinar clearly has to be smart about battle tactics and know a bit about battle strategy in order to have people follow him so loyally. He has the ability but right now he’s more concerned with the fight and not with long term goals. Old!Dalinar often laments that he’s not thoughtful enough. He doesn’t understand politics enough to see what he needs to in order to be effective.
Younger Dalinar is kind of a terror, isn’t he? I am fascinated by the contrast between the Dalinar we’ve seen in WoK/WoR and the Dalinar of 30 years ago. Brandon has me so intrigued about Dalinar’s life and growth from the Blackthorn to the Bondsmith.
I think it’s fine to be hard on Dalinar here; I just am wary of engaging in hyperbole for stronger effect. Dalinar was accused of laughing at near-dead characters calling for their mothers, which was inaccurate. Dalinar was accused of not having any idea who he’s fighting or why, which was also inaccurate (he dwells on both the strategic value of the village and the fact that a highprince and/or his son was mentioned during one of Gavilar’s “endless planning meetings” as being present).
Now it’s being proposed that Dalinar doesn’t care about winning or losing the battle; that he doesn’t care about the plan? Again, that is inaccurate. Dalinar dwells on how he held himself back from the initial clash (exercising restraint that he notes wasn’t easy for him, mind you), and drove his men through unexpected fire(!) to execute the expected plan. He orders his men to gather hostages so that the other army will surrender, specifically with the desired result that his army will win the battle (and they do, by the way).
Again, Dalinar appears to be a rather violent, arrogant and vicious warrior that his brother unleashed against his enemies. But I just don’t get the lengths to which folks are extrapolating Dalinar’s overall behavior and worldviews based off of this very narrow excerpt.
The passage hints that there are multiple layers to Dalinar, some good and some bad. I don’t believe it gives us enough to just label him either a saint (for his ability to value the capabilities of individuals regardless of eye color) or a demon (for how viciously effective he is in defeating his opponents). Like most good well-written characters in stories, he’s got multiple layers to him; I’m all for waiting and seeing more of what they are and then accurately detailing why the Blackthorn was broken and what ultimately led to his change.
@60 &61 – I do like the comparison/contrast you each present. Older Dalinar definitely appears more reflective and cerebral.
I like this young Dalinar. He’s so different from the man we know from the first two books. It’s very entertaining to read.
I want to believe this young Dalinar is essentially a just/magnanimous General (as far as there can be good/noble war lords in a State consistently at war). We have very little data to mine but I think his ability in battle is what makes him feared, not his tactics. Even when accounting for taking hostages and the eventual looting of the town. We’ve never been led to believe he tortures or engages/condones other war-time atrocities. He does what needs to be done to secure victory (it’s strictly business). Rape/torture are not part of the business of winning war so they are not a part of his conquests. Again this is what I want to believe off of limited data. I hope other flashbacks don’t prove me wrong.
Is he fighting for a united nation at this point?
I think I phrased it poorly. Rather than “doesn’t care about winning the battle”, I meant something more like winning the battle isn’t the point. He’s fighting for the sake of fighting, which is very different from the Dalinar we know.
I know I’m over-extrapolating from this but I’ve been rather starved of Stormlight info and this flashback suggest we’re going to see some big questions answered.
@62 – APPLAUSE!!!
This nugget of awesome makes me more desperate for a quicker release. All I’m favour of petitioning for shorter/no new book signing events until Book three is out, say I
KiManiak @62 – Yes. So much yes.
This excerpt is essentially out of any larger context. Gavilar may know the overall purpose of the ongoing battles, but we don’t – and Dalinar doesn’t bother to think about it during the battle – so we can’t say anything about whether or not it’s a positive purpose. We don’t know who they’re at war with, much less why. We don’t know whether this is the beginning of the Unification, or just standard everyday feuding highprinces, or… any of a number of other things. And we won’t until we get the book a year from now, so it behooves us not to attribute motives and behaviors to Dalinar that are based solely on unjustifiable extrapolations.
I know we won’t really know until the book comes out, but just something I was thinking about. We know Dalinar was an alcoholic before Galivar’s assassination. Based on some of the little evidence we have, does anyone want to speculate as to the why? I see 2 possibilities. One, he has become numb to the Thrill. His tolerance has built up so much from the drug that it no longer provides the rush he needs, so he drinks heavily to compensate. Two, he is already starting the turn into the Bondsmith. The many men he’s sent to the Tranquiline Halls is beginning to weigh on his soul. Add that to the overwhelming jealousy that nearly led to him attempting to kill Galivar and we see a man drowning his sorrows at an unsustainable rate. Curious as to what the community thinks.
@37 EvilMonkey,
RE: The Thrill.
A very interesting idea that the Thrill is a gift for the Alethi. So far it seems, we have only Lighteyes talk about it. And in-book, there are remarks that dark-eyes are more Alethi than lighteyes since they don’t marry foreigners for political reasons. Shouldn’t the Thrill then be evident in some of their actions too?
We have Kaladin, who doesn’t seem to feel it, because of the bond, but the first time he picks up the staff he feels something, which he loses when he sees blood (just like Dalinar now and Adolin).
Also, something is nagging at my brain in TWoK flashback where Dalinar is Heb which may be relevant. The Radiant at the end tells Dalinar to seek Urithiru if he wishes to fight, because fighting/killing (don’t have book with me), even against the 10 Deaths, changes people. Is the Thrill this change, that corrupts people, or is it the wish/willingness to fight, that only some Rosharans are given?
I like this Dalinar better than present day Dalinar. His behavior reminds me of what Conan describes as being best in life:
I have a feeling Book Three will be my favorite one out of the series.
Hahaha well said Fourteen Words well said.
@70
That Conan line is basically taken whole sale from something that Genghis Khan said or is attributed to having said.
Forget Dalinar,
Who is the awesome bloke that just broke a WoT record? I mean thats got to be beyond the average Two Rivers Archer
Great new exerpt!
Young Dalinar reminds me very much of Moash. *WoK Spoiler* highlight below to read
During the battle of the Tower, Moash is very excited to be fighting, but he doesn’t pay much attention to his men or how they are faring. Kaladin thinks to himself that all the losses were on Moash’s side of the bridge, not Skar’s.
We also see a bit of the Thrill in others during WoR
Sadeas mentions needing a challenge, the war on the shattered plains is not enough of a challenge anymore. He certainly seems the addict to me. Adolin can actually *sense* the Thrill in Eshonai and uses it to drop her off a plateau.
I will be looking forward to more being released!
Oh god soooo good!!! this made me think about the Two Rivers Long Bow, anyone else?
I’m liking a lot of the discussion. A lot to add to it myself:
The Thrill definitely does act like a drug. I’m thinking it’s more likely Odium created The Thrill rather than it being a gift from Honor. It’s stated on one of the wikis that the Thrill is a product of being close to the Parshendi. This would explain why in none of Dalinar’s flashbacks the Thrill is mentioned nor observed, as it happened after the Desolations and the splintering of Odium and the (temporary)defeat of the voidbringers. The Thrill thus is a splinter of Odium. Now to clear up the timeline for my theory regarding Tanavast/Honor/Odium. First Cultivation’s bearer is killed by Odium, who then splintered Cultivation the shard into physical spren. Tanavast, Honor’s bearer, notices this and creates the Heralds, who train the Alethkar people into warriors fighting the Last Desolation. Tanavast is then shattered by Odium(as told by the memories Stormfather passed on), who then shatters Honor into the spiritual/cognitive spren during one of the earlier Desolations. These spren get together to form the Oathpact with the Heralds and Knights Radiant in order to defeat Odium. Odium himself is shattered(Last Desolation), not killed as Hoid refers to him as trapped in the letters. Thus like how Ruin was trapped by Preservation on Scadrial, Honor and Cultivation (or rather, the spren they produced) trapped Odium. His power too was greatly diminished, but as a part of the book said, he didn’t care. He realized he didn’t have to do much to get people to kill eachother, people would hate (Odium’s shard is Hatred) regardless of him intervening or not. All he did was have to nudge, just as Ruin did. He did this in the form of The Thrill. The Thrill is a fundamental opposite of Surgebinding. Rather than using Honor/Cultivation’s powers, it uses voidbinding which is the result of being too close to the parshmen. Odium influenced the remaining voidbringers to change into Parshmen and Parshendi. He influenced the parshmen to adopt only dullform(Who tragically sought it to be free of Odium’s hatredspren), and led them to be enslaved by the Alethkar. Through them he exerted his influence of The Thrill in order to corrupt Alethkar over time. The Heralds thought the Oathpact was fulfilled, so all but one of them abandoned their honorblades at the Last Desolation. Later on the Knights Radiant too abandoned their shardblades and plate since they no longer had nothing to fight for. Since the Alethkar people were originally used as Honor’s warriors for providing men for the Knight’s Radiant we can see why they abandoned their plates and blades to the people of Alethkar. Unfortunately, human nature led to blood shed. The parshmen being in close proximity further fueled this bloodshed by creating the experience of The Thrill(since odium created the parshmen), leading the blades to be used for essentially, evil (thus syl and pattern’s distaste for them and preference for honorblades).
As for Adolin, he is definitely not a full-blooded son of Alethkar. Remember, this is Brandon Sanderson we’re dealing with here. He has the tendency to take the TINIEST details from every book(*cough*earring*cough*), build them up gradually into a big reveal. His hair is mentioned repeatedly throughout both books. Shallan even makes a point of attraction. This is why Adolin doesn’t experience the Thrill as strongly, he is not a full Alethkar. I’m assuming he and Renarin will eventually become Radiants.
One thing I notice is that the more difficult it is for one to posses the certain quality a spren demands, if they DO end up fulfilling this quality, the more they are bound to the spren. That is why it was Kaladin attracted Syl(honor for those you hate when it’s the right thing to do). This is why Lift attracted Wyndle(caring from someone who struggles to get by every day), This is why Dalinar attacted the Stormfather(binding to oaths due to ones forsaken in the past). This is why Shallan attracted Pattern(getting to the truth despite the lies she told herself).
Dalinar was an amazing warrior before he became a surgebinder. But one that often lost control to his emotions. After his brother was killed and he bound himself to the Codes, he started his journey towards becoming a surgebinder. It’s BECAUSE of that huge contrast between his past/present, and hit commitment to the codes and honor, was he able to bind with Stormfather.
Two last things to add, yes, it does seem that the closer one of Honor/Cultivation’s spren are bound to one, the more cleansed they became of the Thrill. You can witness this in how different Kaladin regards fighting from the start of book one to the end of book two. Fighting as a surgebinder seems to take tenets of Zen philosophy to deal with the necessity of it. Whereas the Thrill takes excitement and pleasure from fighting.
And Adolin really is a better dueler than he is at fighting. He even says that in the book I believe.
@77:
“He works very hard,” Dalinar said. “He truly loves it. Not the war, not the fighting. The dueling.”
Adolin isn’t a fighter: he may be good at it, but his heart ain’t there.
Cultivation’s bearer is still alive, and her Shard intact. Also, there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived.
@79
“Some of the many spren found on modern Roshar were created by Honor and Cultivation at some point before theDesolations started, by Splintering themselves. After Odium killed Tanavast, Honor’s bearer, he Splintered Honor further, creating the many diverse spren found on Roshar.[3][4][5] Some spren are also apparently the result of Investiture left behind by Adonalsium himself.” ~ Stormlight wiki
That and I just reread all of the Mistborn series up to shadows, then A 1 & 2 in order to pick up more details regarding the Cosmere, Hoid/Wit and the Shards. So I remember pretty clearly key aspects regarding these things. Such as, Tanavast referring to Cultivation’s bearer in the past-tense in one of the visions, implying her death before he made the visions. It was a quote in regards to foresight, that “Cultivation was better at it”.
INTERVIEW: May 22nd, 2013
Rithmatist Signing Report – StormAtlas (Paraphrased)
STORMATLAS
Is Cultivation‘s holder still alive?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes.
@80 – I see Wetlander gave the WoB about this, but I would also encourage you to review/reread your sources and citations.
-The Stormlight Archive Wiki you reference does not state that Cultivation has been splintered by Odium, only that Honor was killed/splintered by Odium. Each of the links you provide don’t state anything about Cultivation being splintered by Odium.
-The Wiki page you provide for Splintering just defines Splinter as a fragment of a Shard’s power. The page posits that Splinters can be created by intent (implied to mean a Shard chose to splinter itself) or by default (implied to mean that a Shard was splintered not by choice but by some other action). It mentions multiple Shards that have splinters, some of those Shards are still “alive” and some are splintered/dead.
– The quote you reference from Tanavast actually goes like this: “I (Honor/Tanavast) cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I.” (Way of Kings, Chapter 75) There was no past tense used.
-Finally, Hoid/Wit appears to allude to Cultivation still being around when Adolin tells him to stick to women his own age: “Well, that might be a little harder. I think there’s only one of those around these parts, and she and I never did get along.” (Words of Radiance, Chapter 55).
Wetlander’s Word of Brandon does help to clarify this, but even by just reviewing the books (and the wiki pages, although I would recommend the Coppermind as I find it to be a bit more thorough) the reader can assure themselves that there is no hard evidence of Cultivation being splintered by Odium.
WTF when is that book coming out, this chapter just made me even more excited
Big D didn’t round up the civilians to hurt them but to force the enemy to surrender thus saving lives.
In battle he’s a heartless killing machine because, like he said about momentum, if you stop you die but when the battle was over he showed mercy and leadership.
While it is a but disheartening to see a bloodthirsty Dalinar you can clearly see bits of the man he will become eventually especially when he recruits that archer.
I can’t wait for the third book. The series so far is the best I’ve read since the drizzt series.
lol read the part about the guy with the arrows, first thing comes to mind is Halt from The Ranger’s Apprentice with his black arrows. ^^ I think I might like this guy. XD
Everyone has to remember that the thrill is caused by a very powerful voidspren (neragoul). Most likely its influence is very powerful in Alethkar at this time so Dalinar is completely taken over by it. Its not something you could find in our world.
@32 I have a theory… I think the Thrill is of Odium. Maybe that is a part of why you seem enhanced when you feel the Thrill. As Dalinar is more Honor bound, he looses the Thrill. He is driven more to honor the codes, which Honor would like, as opposed to hating them, as Odium would like. There is definitely conflict in the two shards intent, so I doubt you could serve both at once. As Dalinar serves Honor more, he drift away from the hate and Thrill of Odium.
Also… @76… Regarding the blades. Honorblades, as far as I can remember, were created by the Stormfather, and given to the Heralds to help fight during the Desolations. The spren saw this, liked the idea, and recreated them, in a way. Through bonds, and honoring oaths, they were able to give that power to othe people– the Knights Radiant. Syl and Pattern hate shardblades because they are dead spren, from when the Radiants forsake them. This is why it take 10 heartbeats to summon blades. If you are bonde to a spren, you will hear scream when trying to touch a shardblade, as we see with Renarin. So, not only do spren hate shardblades, surgebinders do as well.
I wonder who’s the assassin? Is it an old friend that died before The Way of Kings?
I loved this book. Though the story plot gets weak at some instances but still I want to have this book in my collection. Whether you’re going to like this book or not? It depends! Few people expressed that it slows down a bit which creates a weak plot at some instances, but I feel that all-in-all Mr.Sanderson did a beautiful work by creating a magical world where you’ll love to be a part of it. I actually initially read a review on http://readaddict.com/top-30-fantasy-books-you-must-read/ about this book and the very next thing I did is I ordered this book and the rest was magic!
@6 and @33 I’m a bit late (1 year) in commenting on this, so probably won’t get a reply, but… Does it ever say that Dalinar’s removal of his wife from his memory was a curse? I always thought that might have been what he asked for and his curse something else.
ShallanVeil @91 – No! Good question. A lot of people assume that forgetting his wife was the curse; probably just as many assume that it was the boon. We don’t know yet. But… we should find out when Oathbringer comes out – seems like it ought to be in his flashbacks.
I hate it when armor are disrespected like that.
An arrow would not even have left a dent in an armor, let alone penetrating it, a gambeson and flesh…
Brandon, if you ever read this, I love you but please don’t be one of these guys…
@93:
“An arrow?” he said, blinking as he found himself lying on the ground. A storming arrow sprouted from his right shoulder, with a long, thick shaft. It had gone right through the chain.
“That’s got to be over three hundred yards,” Dalinar said, shoving Thakka aside and standing. “That can’t—”
Chain can be pierced. Padding can stop arrows, but if it’s already worn, it can fail too. You might be thinking of plate, but plate can be pierced too, by crossbows. If the archer was using something like an English longbow, yes it is very possible. It’s one reason why the English won all the battles of the 100 Years War. Politics is why they lost the war.
I at first thought the guy was using a crossbow, but there is no indication of that. But if he’s using a long bow, and Dalinar has not seen one before, the shot is very possible. Maybe he should have spent more time describing the bow, but he did not in this version of the story.
The padding and distance should have lessened the impact. And it did, in that the arrow did not penetrate through his entire shoulder.
But chainmail is not a mythically stopping force field from arrows. It helps against sword slashes.
The thrill is a sort of trance that is caused by a powerful spren named Nergaoul. It’s like the spren called Moelach, which causes death rattles. The closer the spren is to an area, the more the effect. That’s why the “thrill” is mostly present in Alethkar and Jah Keved; Nergaoul spent a lot of time there maybe? Taravangian talks about it with Agrotagia when they reach the fallen city after the succession war.
But both spren were drawn to the Shattered Plains due to the violence there, supposedly.
@94 Braid_Tug
I would rather say the opposite; the French lost battles due to politics and bad life choices (no one makes them charge longbows in the rain at Agincourt), while the English won because the French couldn’t get their act together.
Once Joan of Arc takes over, the vaunted English superiority goes away very quickly; they actually lose quite a few battles. The Battle of Jargeau, the Battle of Patay, the Battle of Formigny, and the Battle of Castillon were all decisive French victories, won in a relatively short period of time. I have no doubt that English history books describe a clear victory thrown away because of political squabbles, but the facts don’t support that explanation. The French defeated multiple English armies under capable veteran commanders, and England’s loss of political stability was largely a result of their military defeat, not the cause.
Of course, you’re right about the archer shooting through plate mail. I just feel that the British, like every other nation, tend to conveniently rewrite history to excuse their defeats. As an American, I refuse to let them get away with it.
dptullos @@@@@ 96 – Finally someone who understand. :-) I have always felt that the French has been given the short end of the stick by the British. Thanks for the clarification. My knowledge of French history is limited but believe it or not, I know the battles you are talking about
@96 & 96: Sorry, I should have said all the major early battles. I’m an American too, but my history class (and other readings) on the details of the 100 Years War has gotten fuzzy. The early part always stands out more in my memory. Yes, after Joan came along things changed drastically.
But my points about the archer and arrows still stands. This chapter is not canon yet. Brandon is still editing the book, so we will see some changes in the end product. I’m sure the beta readers will point out these issues. I’m friends with several of them, including one that does archery and medieval combat.
By rounding up the women and children and making it a visible affair to the enemy Dalinar saved lives.
I don’t think earth is in the cosmere and WW II has nothing to do with it.
This story picks up where it left off in Unfettered II, totally worth the buy.