“There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?” As Emily said in her non-spoiler review of The Force Awakens, the title refers in a big part to us, the fans, waiting for the start of a new Star Wars trilogy. But just as the Force got awakened on-screen, so did a greater understanding of the Star Wars universe off-screen. And The Force Awakens laid out a lot of new canonical groundwork. So, what do we know now that we didn’t know before we went into that theater?
SPOILERS for Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens.
The main barometer for this film seems to be “but does it feel like a Star Wars movie?” Yes, completely. The Force Awakens is thrilling in the way you expect an adventure like this to be; it’s just the right amount of funny without being smug or too self-aware. It’s also incredibly dark. It’s the bloodiest Star Wars we’ve seen yet, and it also covers more literal and figurative space than most of its predecessors. Even though Lucasfilm erased most of the Expanded Universe and began building a new literary canon in preparation for The Force Awakens, Abrams and co. pulled from the EU (now called “Legends”) in certain key parts for the movie’s plot. Most notable is the character of Kylo Ren, formerly known as Ben Solo: He embodies Jacen Solo’s haste and Anakin Solo’s chip on his shoulder regarding his grandfather, plus Kyle Katarn’s instability and Kyp Durron’s penchant for…killing stars and Jedi, yet he (like Luke and Mara Jade’s Legends-verse son Ben) was presumably named for Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Most of all, The Force Awakens hearkens back to the original trilogy while clearly kicking off a new one. It both fits within the canon and carves out a new space for itself. There’s so much to say about it, but here are a few of the major themes we picked up:
This is the Star Wars the 2015 Generation Would Make
Or rather, this is exactly the Star Wars movie that someone emerging out of their teenage years and responding to the world as it is in 2015 would make. Each of the three main characters from the younger generation represents a different perspective on this supposition:
Kylo Ren is so angry. He’s so utterly furious for reasons we don’t yet know; perhaps Han and Leia were shitty parents, maybe he felt cheated by a system that couldn’t support his clearly impressive powers. Han clearly had trouble connecting with him as a child, and there are hints that he was shipped off to Luke’s school, where he would have been one of many people vying for Luke’s attention. That kind of neglect may have driven him into the arms of Snoke, who may have been the first person to truly acknowledge Kylo’s potential. As the son of two war heroes, he’s the character who seeks the most privilege. He’s aware that Darth Vader is his grandfather, and idolizes this man he never knew, using Vader’s legendary status as a step up into a leadership role that he probably isn’t qualified for. (General Hux certainly seems to think so.)
But unlike Anakin, who endured a lot of loss and made the calculated decision to become Darth Vader, Kylo Ren is all over the place. And yet, Kylo Ren is filled with enough hope that he can’t help but be constantly “tempted” back to the light side. Kylo screams “traitor!” to Finn right after killing his own father, projecting his own wrongs onto others, and he beats at his wounds constantly, perhaps thinking that he deserves them, or that his mistakes should permanently mark him. Kylo isn’t very emotionally developed, and his worldview centers solely around himself. He throws literal tantrums, slashing First Order consoles with his lightsaber when things don’t go his way, and probes (to put it politely) the minds of others to get what he deems is important. Kylo is selfish to a near-psychotic extent, and that selfishness creates incredible pain in the lives of those around him.
By contrast, Rey takes whatever shitty hand life deals her—abandoned by her parents on Jakku yet looking skyward for their return, scavenging for less than a full day’s worth of meals—and makes the most of it. You can see the disbelief on multiple characters’ faces for why she keeps wanting to return to Jakku; even Luke was eager to get as far from Tatooine as possible! But she has grown up believing that if she stays in one place, the people she lost will return to her; instead, she realizes that she needs to follow that path on her own. Rey is hesitant. She’s proactive, but afraid of being seen as someone who simply takes what they want. This is selfish, as well, but very gendered in contrast with Kylo’s actions. Kylo expects his wishes to be granted. Rey fears what might happen if her wishes were granted, but knows that she gains nothing by not asserting herself in the larger world into which she has stepped.
Finn is a fascinating character. Throughout The Force Awakens he tries out almost every identity that he comes across. After being conditioned to be a nameless Stormtrooper, he tries to adopt the Resistance swagger, then contemplates a quiet life on the Outer Rim before realizing he wants to fight for the only people who have ever seen worth in him: Rey and Poe. He tries a variety of weapons before ultimately realizing that it’s not the weapon he has that matters, it’s his willingness to fight for what he thinks is right. He’s a late bloomer.
And Poe is that rare creature who knows exactly what he wants to do with his life.
Each Star Wars trilogy echoes the sentiment of the time it was created within. The original trilogy was a callback to a simpler narrative, where good and evil were physical forces, and very World War II-esque, while drawing on the loose activist humor of a generation coming of age through Watergate and the first years of Saturday Night Live. The prequel trilogy echoes the powerlessness and fear-mongering felt in the early 2000s during 9/11 and afterwards. This new trilogy feels similarly of the moment, depicting a generation with a strong social conscience, uneven economic backgrounds, and an urge to do something about the injustice they perceive, even if they don’t know what injustice really is.
It’s also worth noting how diverse the main trio of good guys are: a white woman, a black man, and a Latino man. But as much as we began to fall in love with each of these characters, so much of The Force Awakens was Rey’s movie. After being written off as a scavenger and referred to in almost every scene as “the girl,” she’s the one who pulls Anakin’s lightsaber out of the snow; she’s the one who goes off adventuring while Finn is still recovering; she’s the one who ultimately offers Luke his father’s lightsaber.
It’s Also Not Entirely Star Wars
We live in a remix culture, in which it’s almost expected that popular works will riff on one another. The Force Awakens certainly felt more like Star Wars than the prequels did, but there were also other small touches and other influences. Take, for instance, the scene with Han facing off the two sets of smugglers he owes. The scuffles among space pirates felt very Serenity, while the rampaging rathgars that Han was herding (which look a bit like Dungeons & Dragons’ Beholders) brought to mind Alien… and did anyone else have that moment where it looked like the rathgar was going to roll after Han à la Raiders of the Lost Ark? And while we never see the Alderaanians realizing what the Death Star was up to in A New Hope, our brief glimpse of the residents of Hosnian Prime watching Starkiller Base’s approaching lasers brought to mind the bombing of futuristic London in Star Trek Into Darkness. And let’s not forget the part that Hamilton‘s Lin-Manuel Miranda had in writing the new cantina music for Maz Kanata’s base.
The Inner Workings of the First Order
One of Natalie Zutter’s favorite aspects of the movie was how much insight we got into Imperial culture via the First Order. Risen from the ashes of the Empire (according to the opening crawl), the First Order doesn’t clarify what “first” means, but one can imagine its leaders envision themselves as embarking on a new era, by taking the Empire’s best components and enhancing them. They eschew clone troopers in favor of humans who can be so finely conditioned that they answer to designations (like FN 2187) over names and who are indistinguishable from one another. They answer to a strict chain of command; even taking off your helmet requires permission. While you have some individuals with slightly more personality, like Captain Phasma, even she doesn’t remove her uniform.
The First Order is xenophobic—as evidenced by the fact that Finn can’t understand any alien languages, while Rey can speak BB, Shyriiwook, and plenty others—yet there’s no racial inequality, as we see impressive diversity among the officers both in helmets and out. The culture seems very insular, likely to the point where they disdain outsiders who join their cause. You can just see how General Hux dislikes the upstart Kylo Ren for pushing his way into a system in which Hux was likely born. The First Order may not be First, but it is orderly.
Life Imitates Mythology
By the time The Force Awakens begins, about 30 years after the battle of Endor, that and all of the other touchpoints of the Rebellion’s fight against the Empire have retreated into the fuzzy space of inaccurate memory and hyperbolized (or hidden) stories. It’s a hard reset, putting Rey where Luke was at the start of A New Hope… or even further back, because while he wants to join the Rebellion, her aspirations are nowhere near as lofty. It takes the physical presence of Kylo and the Starkiller, both of which emulate the “myth” of the original trilogy, to spur Rey and Finn into action. With all of Han, Leia, and Luke’s experiences having been nearly forgotten, it is vital to see the new trio retrace the old trio’s steps, in order to establish that emotional foundation and make these events real again.
So much of the movie’s action hinges on characters learning to do things for themselves. While he is a Knight of Ren, Kylo Ren clearly lacks the polish of a Sith Lord. Rey is wholly untrained; their lightsaber fight on Starkiller Base is evidence enough, with her just hacking and slashing, trying to use Anakin’s lightsaber like she would her staff. That’s not even including the various scenes of characters jumping into foreign ships and figuring out how they work through slapping buttons and trial-and-error. It’s one thing to consider myth as a reality, but quite another to realize that sometimes myths need their compressors ripped out before their hyperdrive will work properly.
Where in the Galaxy is Luke Skywalker?!
There’s been debate over whether Return of the Jedi describes the singular (Luke, completing his training) or the plural (bringing back the Jedi Order with this first step). We now know that his next step, after defeating the Emperor and redeeming Anakin, was to start up a Jedi Academy to train the next generation. But history has a tendency to repeat itself, and he lost Ben Solo to the dark side. Blaming himself for the creation of Kylo Ren, Luke withdrew into self-imposed exile… and maybe also to locate the original Jedi temple?
It’s unclear if the islands where Luke is hiding were a premonition of Rey’s or a memory. Could she have been one of the students Luke was training, the sole survivor of Kylo Ren’s betrayal who was then hidden away? (Remember that Kylo looks very interested every time “the girl” is mentioned.) Or did she simply sense Luke through the Force? Is Rey Luke’s daughter? It’s clear that she may be even more powerful than Kylo Ren, but is this a clue as to a possible Skywalker lineage? Or could she simply be a random player whose Force sensitivity draws her to this epic conflict? And which answer matters more to the larger story?
What’s Next?
The Force Awakens ends with Luke literally standing on the edge of a cliff, forecasting where Rey and Luke’s relationship will go next. But what about all of the other new characters we’ve met, and the classic ones whose return we’re still processing?
- We never saw Captain Phasma actually die and it seems a shame to waste Gwendoline Christie on only a couple of scenes. We hope that, even with the First Order weakened, she’ll go rogue and chase Finn down, becoming his Boba Fett!
- What’s Finn‘s next move? Will he take the role that Han did in Empire Strikes Back, ensuring everyone’s survival in insane circumstances, only to be used as a pawn by darker forces?
- Chewie seems to have been made a widow by Han’s death, more so even than Leia. Is his pairing with Rey a way for him to continue giving meaning to his life? If so, it makes sense that he’d attach himself to a person who Han deemed worthy. (Though Leah Schnelbach really wants to see them bring back Mala and Lumpy…)
- So they stabbed Han. Then threw him into a bottomless pit. Then threw that pit into the sun. Guess he’s not coming back…
- Leia‘s part of the movie was rather small in comparison to Han’s—though, damn, when she hugged Rey that got to all of us. Now that Luke is hopefully making his way back, it seems likely that we’ll see more of General Organa, as she faces the brother who blames himself for her son’s turning to the dark side (and now probably also Han’s death).
- General Hux grabbed Kylo Ren (who got the scar he probably secretly always wanted) and got him away from Starkiller Base before it went solar, which means we get to see more of their prickly rivalry. Maybe now that Kylo Ren has been beaten by a scavenger girl, he’ll actually listen to Hux and be more disciplined for the next showdown?
- Although Snoke says that Kylo’s training is yet to be completed, so we’re probably in for a terrifying upgrade in the Kylo Ren department.
- Are we going to find out what exactly is going on with Supreme Commander Snoke, or will he remain a shadowy
figurehologram? Is Snoke really C-3PO? He’s probably really C-3PO. - What the hell is even going on with Luke? What was this business about going to find the “First Jedi Temple”? How did he make sure R2-D2 knew when to turn on again and show the Resistance his location? How did the final piece of the map get to that old guy in the beginning of the film? And what was that guy’s relation to Kylo? Luke’s past 30 years is one giant, giant question mark.
- How does the Republic feel about the Resistance blowing up Starkiller Base? Will they align themselves with that victory—perhaps in memory of Hosnian Prime—or will the Resistance continue to exist on the fringes?
- What happened to Coruscant?
- BB-8 completed his micro-scale mission, i.e., to deliver the map to Luke. But his macro mission, to be adorable comic relief, will take a long time to complete. Seriously, we need a GIF of his little thumbs-up.
- We love that Threepio, Artoo, and BB-8 have been friends in the intervening years between trilogies.
Natalie Zutter totally called Han’s death (and really wished she were wrong), but got all teary when Rey grabbed Anakin’s lightsaber. You can read more of her work on Twitter and elsewhere.
Chris Lough‘s boy cat does the same exact headbutting thing that BB-8 does to Artoo and it killed him. Chris exists on Twitter but, you know…why?
How did he make sure R2-D2 knew when to turn on again and show the Resistance his location?
HINT: Artoo woke up when Rey got there.
Also, they issued an Illustrated guide on Friday, which gives a lot of backstory and references and such.
The “old guy” at the beginning had the map because Luke gave it to him, I’d assume. He was a follower of the “Church of the Force” or some such, according to the illustrated guide. I assume he was placed there to watch over Rey, a la Obi-wan.
I didn’t necessarily see Hux’s dismissal of Kylo as evidence that he dislikes outsiders so much, but just that he dislikes Kylo–and more importantly that he isn’t afraid of the kid. It’s essentially the opposite of the ease with which Vader intimidated everyone around him in the original trilogy. You don’t want to be caught on the receiving end of Kylo’s violent outbursts, sure, but it’s not like anyone respects him.
Small quibble: Luke only wants to join the Rebellion once the Empire destroys his home and family. Before that he’s just looking to get off Tatooine, even dreaming of joining the Imperial Academy. Rey is already enamored with the Resistance, but she doesn’t allow herself to dream of anything other than the return of her family, which leaves her fairly planted in her solitary life on Jaaku.
@2, That was ONE of the travesties of the movie, was that Max von Sydow was done and gone so quickly. The other was, of course, the lack of Phasma.
@@.-@:
I agree, either that, or don’t market Phasma so much. It made her seem like a poor Boba Fett copy. Hopefully there will be more of her upcoming.
Really, Han facing the two gangs felt like Serenity and not like, oh, I don’t know… Han himself facing Greedo or Jabba? Like Serenity is not inspired by Star Wars? And the Rathgars don’t feel like the Rancor or the Sarlacc? I thoroughly disagree with you.
And the ROTJ title debate actually includes if the Jedi that returns is Anakin Skywalker, from the dark side.
@1 – Aeryl: He also woke up when BB-8 got there with his part of the map.
I look forward to seeing Captain Phasma’s jetpack malfunction, dropping her into a Sarlaac pit.
Actually, I do hope she shows up in later episodes and has a bit more to do. I’ll be very curious to see the deleted scenes when they come out, and to see what additional material has made it into the novelization.
Having seen it twice now, I do think that the movie could’ve used another, say, 10-15 minutes of connective tissue — there were bits that felt a bit rushed and/or hand-waved. I also would’ve been happy to see a few more aliens from the Original Trilogy and maybe even (dare I say it?) the prequels; and I’m very curious to know what’s been happening on the core worlds in the Inner Rim.
@6 — Aeryl’s right, R2 only wakes up once Rey arrives at the Resistance base. When we first see R2, asleep and under the sheet, BB8 has just arrived with the unreadable map, but Rey has been whisked off to the Starkiller Base. I’m betting that even if R2 wasn’t waiting for Rey specifically, he was waiting for someone sufficiently Force Sensitive, who could then be trained by Luke.
Edited: whoops, apparently Poe had the map at that point? Sometimes it’s really hard to follow a Macguffin. (See Comment #11)
I like the scene where Emo Goth Kylo is having his little temper tantrum and the two stormtroopers are like “Nope!” and decide to patrol that other corridor, over there.
@6 I agree the Jedi that returned was Anakin.
@6, @8:
TorSarah is correct. BB-8 rolls up to R2 at the midpoint of the movie, while Rey is captured by Ren, before Han and Finn go to rescue her. 3PO then tells BB-8 he’s been in low-power mode since Luke left.
However, neither time does R2 have the map. He gives that to Poe when he first sees him, and Poe has the map in the command center.
After they rescue Rey and returning with her to the base, Rey walks near R2, and R2 awakens (The Droid Awakens?). R2 then projects his map, with the missing piece. BB-8 goes up to Poe, and Poe gives him the data stick with the map on it, then projects that piece of the map inside R2’s map.
@8:
I’m pretty sure Leia is sufficiently force sensitive. Also, there’s nothing, at all, in any previous canonical Star Wars material to suggest that R2 could sense someone’s force sensitivity. The only thing we’ve seen is people strong in the Force sensing the presence of others strong in the Force, and Qui-gon’s little blood test.
Its far more likely that R2 simply knows who she is, because she was Luke’s apprentice before Kylo Ren betrayed the New Jedi Academy. You could retcon that to being he was able to detect and recognize her based on pheromones.
@12 — Well, it’s implied that Luke pretty specifically doesn’t want to see Leia, nor does she need/want training to be a Jedi. I suppose I used the wrong terminology there, since there are plenty of Force sensitive characters who are not Jedi. Anyway, I’m also holding off on speculation re: Rey’s previous training or whatever, because she seems pretty surprised to find out that Luke is a real person and not just a myth. And sure, there are ways to get around that in the future installments, but I think that’s getting a bit too theoretical at this point.
It’s times like this that I really wish I had a thought recorder, so I wouldn’t have to try and search through my mind to remember all the thoughts I’ve had.
Part of the problem in organizing those thoughts is that I’m not entirely sure where to begin. I think I can start off at the core of it by saying that I have to admit I don’t really understand the mentality that a gritty realism approach is the right way for Star Wars–Star Wars, of all things–to go in. It’s one thing to realize that people have different viewpoints and experiences and perceptions, and that lots of people can love a piece of media for entirely different reasons. I can tell myself that. But at the same time, the mentality behind The Force Awakens (and similarly minded fan films) is so completely outside of my own experience and thought process that I am thoroughly perplexed by it.
This simply did not feel like a Star Wars film. Never mind that the cutting and general photography style was different; I was preparing myself for that, and for this to be an entirely new trilogy for a new age. But there was no sense of fun or adventure. If you walk away from a Star Wars movie feeling depressed, there’s something wrong there. I can honestly say that my thought on walking out of the theater was disappointment, and was left wondering if this was how the prequel haters felt walking out of Phantom Menace. I guess now it’s my turn.
I was actually really really excited by the opening scroll. We get the New Republic, General Leia, etc. And I thought the beginning of the film was pretty good—again, if stylistically different from the other Star Wars films. I pretty much liked all the Jakku segment. And lest anyone get me wrong: Yeah, there was a lot of stuff I DID like about this movie. There were some pretty great moments. I think my first disappointment started setting in about halfway through when I realized I couldn’t possibly take my son to this. He’s four-and-a-half, and I had been kind of looking forward to taking him to see this, and having a Star Wars movie being his first movie in the theater. We’ve even mentioned to him (which now I see as maybe a mistake) that there was going to be a brand new Star Wars movie no one had ever seen before. But I realized that he would completely freak out and get scared at almost every moment of this movie, and there wasn’t much for him to like in it. He’s been watching Supergirl with us, and while he enjoys it, every time Supergirl is in a fight with someone who appears to be besting her, he rails about how he “hate[s] that guy!!!” and tells us he doesn’t like the “scary” Supergirl (the more intense parts of the show). So I feel like he would absolutely be screaming throughout this movie. The movie’s PG-13, and deservedly so. The previous six installments were intended for children, but this one most certainly is not. I had been looking forward to him having a new Star Wars that was “his” for his memories, even if I ended up not liking it as much, but now I can’t even have that. Not now anyway—it will be years before he’ll be ready to see this film, and time will tell if by that point we’ll even want to watch it.
The other moment was when I realized enough time had gone by that we should be approaching the climax, but it certainly didn’t feel like a climax. I didn’t really feel much emotional investment in the end battle, which didn’t have many exciting redeeming moments (I’m not talking about the lightsaber battle—that was actually pretty good).
And now let’s get into the gritty “realism” stuff. I get it, there are people who like that kind of thing, and even I’ll admit I think it could work for certain franchises (hah, as an aside, I realized I prefer gritty alternate universism—things can go to hell as long as it’s an alternate timeline that gets reset in the end). I also get that people who like gritty realism like Star Wars too. But I feel that people who are old enough to make a big-budget Hollywood movie should realize from experience by that point that mixing two things you like doesn’t necessarily result in a positive combination. Abrams should know that saur kraut ice cream and pink lemonade milkshakes are not good ideas. Nor is “gritty” Star Wars. And the problem I have with this mix in Force Awakens is not necessarily that they did it or decided to go that route, but that they completely undermined the journeys undertaken by the cast of the original trilogy and pretty much erased Return of the Jedi in order to set everything back to A New Hope in order to do a soft reboot.
Specifically, they made Han Solo a sad, pathetic loser. At this point, with what they did to his arc, go ahead and kill him off—Han Solo was dead already anyway. His arc in the original trilogy was going from a stand alone sarcastic flyboy to someone who is willing to help the Rebellion and do the right thing, and finally to someone who actively becomes part of the Alliance—as the ROTJ novelization put it: because when they came after him in Jabba’s Palace, he realized he wasn’t alone, but a part, and his new philosophy was doing things for one’s friends rather than one’s self. So after that, we have him splitting with Leia and the Alliance to go off and be a smuggler and “relive the glory days.” Except during the scene where you realize they turned him into Mal Reynolds, you find out that he’s kind of a bad smuggler, who borrows money all the time without paying it back, and fails to deliver on his shipments multiple times. Missing a shipment and owing Jabba was a major plot point of the original trilogy—as an isolated incident. But according to this movie he does it all the time. And NOT ON THE FALCON! He doesn’t even have the Falcon. Because HAN SOLO had the Millennium Falcon STOLEN from him. J.J.—you took the FALCON AWAY FROM HIM. How could you? How dare you? Not to mention that the Falcon had its own damage done to it by some idiot owner installing some thing on it that makes it crappier and undoes Han’s modifications. Even the Millennium Falcon got the “characters have to become pathetic” gritty realism treatment. So, Han Solo became a sad sorry loser. Like my wife said, “I’m surprised they didn’t also make him a drunk.” So at that point, sure, kill him—except like my wife also pointed out, since they haven’t found Luke yet, that means we’ll never see the gang all together again.
As for the death—meh, I guess I don’t mind in and of itself, but it kind of feels like it was there just to be there, or for Game of Thrones style shock value. It could’ve been an important part of Kylo Ren’s character arc, but in this first movie, we’re not as emotionally invested in Kylo Ren and his relationship to Han yet, so that scene really would’ve worked better and had more impact and story importance in Episode VIII. When Kasdan first pitched his death for Return of the Jedi, the reasoning was that if Han could die, then it would create a sense of jeopardy for the other characters. Even though George decided that was not the direction he wanted, I could see that argument for that film as being reasoned. Here, it really felt like, Kasdan and Ford got shot down by George back then, but now Abrams will let them do it, so they did it to do it. I’m kind of hoping actually that one of the first scenes of Episode VIII will be a memorial service for Han, with Leia in tears, Chewie bawling his eyes out, and maybe even Threepio translating for him to everybody while he gives a simple, yet moving speech. And Lando can be in attendance. That would give his death in this one some more emotional impact.
And then let’s get to Luke. (Really, did they WATCH Return of the Jedi before this movie?) Luke, who turned Darth Vader back to the good side. Luke, who threw away his lightsaber and told the Emperor to his face, “You’ve failed. I AM A MOTHERF@*&IN’ JEDI.” This character tries (even though there is no try) to create a new Jedi Order, but he has one pathetic whiner of a student go bad and destroy his efforts (because he couldn’t stop him?) so he GIVES UP and goes off somewhere to mope while said student destroys the galaxy. And possibly abandon his daughter on some shit planet. I’m not going to get TOO hung up on this yet though, because the fact that he left a map, and that there was a rumor he was looking for the first Jedi temple means that he could actually be actively DOING something. Perhaps he is responsible for the “Awakening” of the Force in the title and mentioned once in the movie even though they did nothing else with that. Perhaps it’s why Rey opened up to the Force when she did. And there might be some wiggle room that she’s NOT Luke’s daughter. And perhaps he didn’t realize that R2 would fall asleep and fail to give anyone the map, because that just seems to be there because plot. So if it turns out he is actually at the first temple actually DOING something, they could redeem that character arc. But if it turns out he really is just off being depressed and mopey, that might be where I walk out.
And I totally get where you might say that the ending of Return of the Jedi was a little too simple, that they would still have problems going forward (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAOX_CHU0JY). But there are other ways to do that and have them be NEW problems. Trying to build the New Republic government amidst worlds war torn from the Empire while there are still Empire loyalists about. Having a new Order of Jedi but struggling with how to best define the new Jedi—not as rigid as the old Order, but where do you find the balance so they don’t all go to the Dark Side? What does it mean to have brought “balance to the Force?” There should be some new angle to this thing, that while still tying it to the other two trilogies, makes it a new trilogy for a new generation and not just a rehash of what’s come before.
And that’s really another problem that I briefly mentioned earlier. At first, I felt that there just a few too many callbacks to the original that were out of place (Have we seriously learned nothing from Superman Returns?). Things like the stormtrooper chatter, the making the Kessel Run in 14 parsecs joke—those are fine. And maybe even hiding the plans in the droid and making him the MacGuffin I can kind of handle. Making the new rebel base look like the Massassi temple, having the X-Wings fly down a trench while blowing the Superweapon up…that’s just a little unnecessary. And then I realized, it was actually much more than that. He actually made a reboot-but-not-reboot. He tried to have it both ways. Like it was meant to be an original following story (and there were some elements of that) and then they had tacked on a reboot of the original plot. They destroyed the Republic and the Senate and even destroyed the new Jedi and made Luke the last one to basically reset the status quo back to where it was in A New Hope. Like, completely undoing the original trilogy so they can do the same thing all over again. The Jedi were destroyed because in the first one they were destroyed in the past. The had the “Resistance” because they wanted to make it like the Rebellion. And the unanswered questions about the past were another thing with this movie that were maybe just too much. Who is Snoke and where did he come from and how could he convert Ben to the Dark Side? Seems like a question of the original trilogy—almost if this trilogy now begs for its own prequel trilogy in between VI and VII. I was never super invested in the old EU, but two things from the EU that I wanted to see in the new movies were the New Republic and Luke’s new Jedi Order. And this movie said, “Oh yeah, those things were there, but they’re gone now.” We never got to see them. And we will NEVER see a new Jedi Order, at least not until a X-XII trilogy. Because this one will be about Rey learning from Luke and then going and starting a new Order, just like the plot of the original trilogy. So we will never see a new Jedi Order here will multiple Knights/students.
And I really think it is too much…I mentioned earlier that I felt no impact or investment with the Starkiller base battle, because it didn’t really get much setup. In the first one, the Death Star was set up as this menacing thing. It was mentioned in the rollup, we see Leia imprisoned there and some admirals having the conversation about the station being the best thing ever, we had the emotionally played out destruction of Alderaan, and then of course a whole segment of running around it. That was even set up menacingly—they didn’t simply land on it, they were slowly tractored in with ominous music, and had to use trickery to sneak around. And then during the briefing with the stolen plans, the weakness was set up as a somewhat impossible task met with a lot of skepticism and fear. And Luke had to use the Force to blow it up in a powerfully climactic moment, because the targeting computer was shown to not work. And this is set against the tension of the diagram of the Death Star coming around the planet and Tarkin watching and them getting ready to fire. In the Force awakens, the plot was set up to be the First Order chasing the droid to get the map to Luke Skywalker, and then halfway through, the say, “By the way, we have this big thing that can blow up planets from afar, so this is another threatening plot device.” The briefing consisted of, “Oh yeah, let’s blow this thing up,” and then they got Captain Phasma to totally comply and shut down the shields. The weapons on the ships don’t quite work so let’s have Han go down and plant bombs (which now that I think of it, is what they had to do on the Death Star in the early versions of the first Star Wars script) basically just so he could die. So the whole Starkiller base plot seemed tacked on and rushed, and in general this movie just had too much in it to make that be effective, since it actually did have some new plot threads in it besides the rehash of the first one. With so much in it, there was no time to really slow down and have more emotional moments that could really sink in. Overall, the pacing just did not help to convey and really emotional climax. The movie would’ve been totally fine with the climax being the Rey/Ren lightsaber battle, and the “big battle” could’ve been the fight over the cantina planet. A New Hope represented that simple, fairy tale plot done completely, absolutely RIGHT, and Force Awakens tacked on the plot done all WRONG.
And what kind of baffles me is that people can level all sorts of criticisms at the prequels that have weak foundations, and then make a movie that IS EXACTLY THOSE CRITICISMS and then call it the exact opposite. Saying that George Lucas cared too much about special effects and CGI and not about story, whereas this movie had way more gratuitous visuals and not really enough time to slow down for development, and a story with a weak climax. Saying that George just made the prequels to make money—when it seems like all indications pointed to him just wanted to finish the trilogy, and setting out to make films that were the stories he wanted to tell without necessarily caring about pleasing anybody, but because he wanted to tell them. Whereas Disney absolutely and fundamentally wants to make money off of these. Make no mistake—the entire reason this new movies exist is because Disney is trying to recover a $4+ billion investment as well as make a reasonable profit margin above that.
The problems with the prequels were some pretty bad dialogue, places of less than stellar acting (but there were also moments of great acting), and some probably over-the-top humor at times. But the core stories, in their structure and in their message, were pretty good. The Force Awakens has the opposite problem: A lot of this movie was very well executed, with a lot of really fantastic moments. But it had a pretty inside-the-box story structure and at its core, the message was very, very depressing.
And I have to reiterate how disappointed I was that it was not made for kids and I will not be able to take my son to it like I had wanted. It really feels like Abrams and Kasdan were trying to “relive the glory days,” which almost never works in a movie. In so doing, they kind of made the whole original trilogy be as pathetic and sad as they made Han. I was hoping that this maybe would be a new Star Wars for a new generation, but it wasn’t. It was a Star Wars for an older, cynical and jaded generation.
And that’s too bad, because it could’ve been great. And there was so much that I did really like in this movie, but the more I think of it as a whole, the more sad I get. Which is not something I ever wanted Star Wars to do to me. And I really wonder if this is what all the prequel haters felt like, and what kind of path I might go down with this movies now. I think my wife has already become a sequel denier.
@11 – Only watched it the one time, so I can’t be 100% sure on this, but I thought it was made clear that the “map” that BB-8 and Poe had was the small “missing” piece of the larger map. Then after R2 wakes up, he projects that “rest of the map” while BB-8 goes and gets the missing piece and projects it in place to complete the map.
Kylo at one point says that the First Order had the rest of the map from the Empire’s archives. This suggests that the “map” is not a map that Luke left solely with R2 to be able to find him, but that the map led to that “first Jedi Temple” world and that’s where Luke is now located.
@12 – you could also believe that R2 had a low-power visual scan that he would do periodically (or even some sort of passive sensor) looking for Rey. I’m 99% certain that we’ll find out he was waiting for her specifically.
Pretty certain that the alleged Serenity resemblance is just in the minds of the die-hard browncoats who want to see their failed show in everything.
@14 – You make a lot of really relevant points, but I’ve seen the arguments about “I can’t take my kids to this” from various people with young children talking about how disappointed they are with TFA and I think it’s asking a bit too much from the movie. I have a 3 year old who I’d LOVE to show Star Wars to, but I feel that it’s too early. It’s super easy to forget as we have all internalized those movies growing up, but there are a lot of intense sequences in those movies – they were only rated PG because PG-13 didn’t exist until after Temple of Doom forced a change (now THAT movie is not kid-friendly). The opening sequence from A New Hope is scary, Vader choking people to death left and right is morally difficult to explain, same for torturing/freezing Han in Empire, there’s the rancor and Jabba’s palace in general, and the lightsaber fights at the end of Empire/Jedi are pretty intense as well. Heck, even in the most “kid-friendly” movie of all 6 (Ep. I), the main Jedi hero dies at the end. So I think that the “darkness” in this is a bit overstated. It’s definitely not sunny, and there is a deep undercurrent of sadness and melancholia that pervades the backstory of the movie (and I’m not sure I like that in my Star Wars), but I don’t think it’s that much darker or more intense than the originals.
Let’s be clear. I am in NO WAY telling anyone how to parent their children – each family has to make those decisions on their own. I showed my son a few episodes on Star Wars Rebels cuz I was all excited, but then started having second thoughts as he started playing with his toys differently and talking about blasting ships out of space. Personally, I’m not ready for him to get to that point yet, and so I won’t be showing him any of the original Star Wars movies for at least a few years. Each family should make their own choices regarding that, and I fully understand feeling badly that you wish this was a Star Wars movie you felt you could share with your kids at this point. I agree that I don’t think it is – but I think it might be too much to ask the movie to be all things to all ages.
@15:
Your description is exactly what I was trying to say. Sorry if I confused.
@13:
As far as Rey, it seemed obvious to me that touching Luke’s saber (OK, that is perhaps not the best way to phrase that) unlocked a lot of buried memories for her. The way she said “Luke” to Maz Kanata afterwards was very… Intimate. It was after that, almost immediately that she start demonstrating conscious force ability, almost like she was remembering training from her early childhood.
I saw the movie last thursday and simultaneously wanted to discuss it and didn’t feel in a place to because of lots of different emotions. But reading this great article makes me want to break the silence.
First this is an excellent piece Chris, I really like how you comment on and analyse various aspects of the film, the characters and the social context. Plus you made me laugh with certain comments like Kylo getting the scar he secretly always wanted!
I hadn’t thought fully about how the various trilogies take from their culture timepoint or at least consciously articulated about exactly why both the prequels and to a lesser extent Force Awakens make me slightly uncomfortable despite being an enjoyable ride. Don’t get me wrong I loved the film overall for many reasons but there is something timeless and archetypal about the originals that the prequels completely failed to recapture and while TFA does capture it to a certain extent there is a perhaps necessary inclusion of contemporary issues and film processes that makes it a different beast to the OT. Perhaps a hybrid is the best term. TFA is a modern film, I could definitely see JJ’s style in it, although I appreciate his repeated focus on other more classic films, vistas and film language to recapture the OT’s magic like GL did when creating them (he mentioned he and creative team looked at Malick, Kurasawa etc to create evocative scenes and emotions). On the other side the modern, self referential quality is exactly what made me a little uncomfortable although being a product and fan of modern SFF I also enjoyed it (I told you I had mixed feelings!) I definitely got the Serenity vibe from the smugglers scene for example. In fact it almost had a little of Pirates of the Caribbean 2 quality to it.
Perhaps this is necessary – although Im a second generation star wars fan (I saw the OT in the cinemas in 1997 which still counts as part of a primary father/daughter bonding moment particularly as my dad is the one that indoctrinated me on all things SF!) even I have this feeling of ownership towards Star Wars. But JJ and Disney are having to both link to the OT but also remake and move the story for a new generation. It will be interesting to see what young kids seeing the film now make of it when they are grown up. Will they have the same feeling of ownership and nostalgia that we have with the OT? Or is it something to do with Lucas’s serendipitous first capture of fairy tales in space that is the real magic and every other Star Wars film will always feel a little derivative no matter how good because they aren’t telling something new or in a new world? I think these questions will be answered more clearly after Ep 8 and definitely 9 when Disney have a chance to cut loose of linking the OT and create their own legacy. I just hope they can do it justice. I have faith based on what I’ve seen they might be able to if they stick to the archetypal core and emotional bonds of the Saga.
Your commentary on the new generation of characters is great. The Kylo/Rey contrast is really interesting and i hope they continue to explore this dynamic throughout the trilogy. He is full of pain, anger and loneliness but what interests me is that Rey is in a similar situation but as you pointed out she deals with it completely differently. I love analysing character’s motivations especially because Im a trained actress and aspiring SFF writer myself. When I was thinking about Rey, she strikes me as a person who takes the hard knocks that life has dealt her and allows that to teach her compassion for others. Ren of course does the opposite and uses his pain as an excuse to take out his feelings on others. (Your comments about entitlement are enlighting too – thinking about he is Rebellion and Force royalty, born in the shadow of his famous family. That can either be a blessing or a curse for a child.)
This to me is part of the essence of the Light side and the Dark and the battle between them. Talking of Kylo and Rey both the Force and their similar emotional backgrounds seem to really draw them together both in a weird fascination (esp on Kylo’s part) and dislike. Kylo definitely represents the Dark for Rey even before she saw him kill Han because of her vision. But I’m betting Rey will represent the temptation of the Light for Kylo – someone that has for the moment done what he couldn’t – master their emotions and pain, defeat the Dark in the form of himself and choose their friends over themselves. Because of this continuing theme of Light and Dark throughout Star Wars I wonder how they will take Rey and Kylo’s relationship. It really irritated me that they kept giving weird teasers to Rey’s background – the Island memory Kylo sees, the vision Rey has, Han’s looks at her, Leia’s welcome, her and Luke’s emotional stare – not least because there was a definite chemistry if not outright sexual tension between Rey and Kylo. I know Star Wars has a history of awkward retcons leading to shades of incest (Luke and Leia Im looking at you!) but I want to know if its ok to be rooting for a romantic redemption for Kylo/Ben via Rey or throw popcorn at the screen telling him creeping on his sister/cousin is way too dark even for the Dark Side! Either way they are the characters i enjoyed the most in this film and Im really looking forward to their stories in the next.
Re Finn – he was the character I was most in two minds about. John is a great actor and I really felt for the character and enjoyed his budding friendship with Poe, Rey and as a sidekick to Han but a)I felt his character leaned too much into comic relief – it was great at the start but at the end I was like ‘JJ, Finn is first and foremost a warrior, stop making him look incompetent and freaked out for laughs.’ Of course he’s out of his depth and gone through this massive trauma and he’s facing hard core foes so he’s not going to win every fight but at times I felt he was just made to look a little too goofy, perhaps as a way to make sure Rey was always depicted as the strong woman that don’t need no man. As a woman I loved Rey’s portrayal and journey but it shouldn’t be at the expense of Finn’s. And b) talking about realism (as much as one can in a sci fi movie) they establish Finn as having an emotional breakdown partly about his comrade getting killed in the first scene and also that he has been kidnapped and brainwashed as a kid – brilliant – I loved it. But then later he shows no qualms about happily shooting those same comrades and no conflict stemming from his former indoctrination. Chris you make a great point about him having no identity so he tries on every one he comes across and that’s true. I just wish (as much as I enjoyed the comedy) they had balanced it with some emotional nuances that they themselves set up in the opening scenes. Hopefully we’ll get to see more from Finn in the next film where we can see a bit more of that. Plus he, Rey and BB-8 are adorable.
Phasma was just a joke to me, I can’t believe they made so much of her character and her being an example of an unusual strong female character when she says about 2 lines of dialogue, one of which is said in a scene where she betrays the First Order at gunpoint while she’s wearing armour without a fight. I really, really hope she gets fleshed out in the next couple of films as the concept was a great one. Hux I also was expecting more of. He seemed so smarmy to the point of being wet instead of the sneering, imperious figure he looked in the poster and pre release stills. While Kylo’s reveal as a Darth Vader wannabe with temper tantrums and angst really worked for me, Hux could do with some manning up.
This being the internet and rabid fans being rabid fans, I feel the need to restate – overall I loved the film, but in sharing my viewpoint that includes things that didn’t work for me, but hey, that just my opinion.
I did leave the film with these conflicting feelings but overall with the need to see Episode 8 immediately!
I think the sense of melancholia makes sense. Star Wars and the original sequels were the triumphal cry of Gen X when we thought life was an adventure and we could pry the future from the Baby Boomer’s hands and really change things. Han et al were the Gen Xer heroes. Well look at the world now. Gen X got ground down harder than even the younger millennials did, and the Baby Boomers are still hoarding the resources and trashing the world. Of course Han, Luke, and Leia are going to feel crushed and worn out. Lets hope the millennials manage a better job of change and they don’t get ground down or turned into Darth Shkreli’s. Rey, Po, and Finn are the heroes for the kids living in the ruins of a world Gen X failed to save.
For all the people saying they cannot take their kids to this, good. I wish it had been given a slightly higher rating to ensure they were forced to splash out on babysitters, which is what they are really complaining about. Ugh, I can’t believe I have to pay for a babysitter instead of letting little Chad and Maryai run around a theater screaming their little heads off during the movie like I normally do. That is what the complaints about not being able to bring their kids really mean. Also what do they mean too dark for kids. Not a single person had an arm amputed, even once. WHat kind of Star Wars movie is that?
@16: I noticed the resemblance to Firefly, and I hated that show. So it’s not just imagined, it’s the style in which it was done.
@17: There definitely is a line to be walked there. I’d like to discuss those topics further at a later time when I can get on a real keyboard.
@19 RE: Finn
I had a different take than you. I thought they emphasised that he was freaking out at the death of the civilians, not his comrades. I didn’t get that there was a lot of comradery amongst the troops, between the brainwashing and reconditioning. Also, he may have been trained, but they went to great pains to tell us that was his first action. So he was not an experienced warrior. YMMV
@12, I think people are making too big a deal of that one line of Han’s to infer that there was an entire academy. “The next generation of Jedi” was just Kylo/Ben at that point.
I agree, the scene in question felt like it belonged in a different movie. It was Speilberg, not Lucas. It was very, very Abrams.
@23: “That school of Luke’s” more than implies there was more than one student. There is also, apparently, an entire Church of the Force that developed around Luke and his school. I need to get that Illustrated Guide that came out Friday.
We did take my 6-year-old daughter (and she loved it) but it was probably pushing the edge of what she can handle. And of course, every child is different, and parents know what’s best for their own children far better than random people on the internet.
I’d argue that TFA isn’t any “grittier” than the OT, which was intentionally meant to look dirty and grimy and lived-in (as opposed to the rather sterile prequel trilogy.) I was going to suggest that maybe TFA is bloodier, but then I recalled Ponda Baba’s bloody severed arm and the charred corpses of Owen and Beru in the very first movie… But there’s a spirit of menace that pervades the new movie: for all that Darth Vader was an all-powerful boogieman stalking through the halls and choking out his underlings, TFA has the clearly-unhinged and uncontrollably-violent Kylo Ren actively chasing down our protagonists throughout the entirety of the film.
@@@@@ 1: yeah, R2 is not showing the resistance where luke is. he’s showing rey where he is. because it’s pretty clear that she’s his daughter: the lightsaber, the visions, and R2 is the clincher. some may think this is too obvious, but seriously, when has star wars been known for subtlety? whether luke dropped her on jakku or she was lost to him, i don’t know. as for people complaining about him possibly abandoning his child…when have the jedi ever been particularly good with interpersonal relationships? part of me thinks the “no attachments” rule is just so they don’t have to deal with it, cause they suck at it.
i don’t think luke gave up, i think he went looking for answers. answers such as, what are the jedi really? should they be brought back? jedi or not, it’s not like force sensitivity is going away. people need some sort of training. is luke the person to be doing it? and if so, what is the best way? one can certainly argue the jedi order fell because they became too involved in politics. but what is the best role for space-magic wielding warrior monks?
also, still waiting for ashoka to show up. i haven’t read any supplemental novels or comic, so beyond knowing she does not consider herself a jedi (nor, i assume, do the kannan and ezra in “rebels”), don’t know what happens to her. but she’s a great character, and has been linked to the rebellion in the canon…surely she must show up again? somewhere?
I could be wrong about this but I thought R2’s waking had to do with hearing Chewie. I thought Chewie made a noise and that was when R2 woke up. That would make sense. Luke instructs R2 to go into low power mode until such time as the rest of the gang all get back together. Han had run off with Chewie at some point, so it would take something very important to bring them all back together where Luke might be needed.
@20 – man, I hope you stretched before you made that leap, because that is so completely ridiculous and outlandish. “That is what the complaints about not being able to bring their kids really mean.” Huh??? I had the same thought as crzydroid about my kids and the movie and it had nothing at all to do with being upset about paying for a sitter. For one thing, I’ve never actually taken my kids to a movie because of that very reason – I don’t want to be constantly refereeing them or taking them to the bathroom, worrying about them disrupting things, etc. We always get sitters when we go to movies. The original Star Wars movies (aside from Revenge of the Sith, which I do think straddles that line) while definitely have some scary/dark moments, still have a different feel to them. My kids at least (4 and 3) are able to watch them without being too freaked out (my son does ask us to skip the wampa scene). We were hoping that we could take the older one (who is getting to an age where he could behave in a movie theater for a period of time) to a matinee showing once the crowds died down. But knowing what he could handle – this one definitely has a much different feel to it and I wouldn’t want to take him, and that’s sad, because Star Wars is something we share as a family and all enjoy. The fact that you are making it into such a cynical thing and making such a broad statement about people and families you don’t even know is honestly mind boggling to me.
Anyway, more to the point of the article – I think you (the authors) got it spot on with the analysis regarding the cultural differences. I’m still trying to separate my visceral ‘JJ Abrams ruined my childhood’ reaction to giving it some more deep thought, and I’ve vented my spleen elsewhere here so I’ll try to keep it brief. But that was actually my first thought as well; I’m not the target audience/generation and this movie doesn’t resonate with me or feel like ‘home’ to me. Well, it resonates, but in the worst ways, I guess.
But I love your analysis on the type of villain Kylo is…it’s also obvious even from the movie he’s just an imitator of Vader (the scene where Poe completely disrespects him and his affectation of the helmet is probably one of my favorite scenes of the movie). I loved your remark about the scar.
Anyway, we shall see where it goes, but I’m a bit cautious of getting invested in this. Luke might still be able to be redeemed, but – knowing going in that Han was going to be killed off – I would have much rather him gone out in a blaze of self-sacrificing glory* or at least given him some more dignity. The scene itself was really very well done and powerful – you know Han was trying to do the right thing even if he knew it was probably doomed to failure. It had some good parallels to previous scenes in the saga (Luke and Vader, Padme and Anakin, etc)…I’m just still on the fence if this is going to be tragedy for shock’s sake or not.
(*Depending on where Kylo’s arc goes, it may be possible that Han’s final act really did mean something and wasn’t just a tragic end/failure)
But…yeah, I don’t quite feel this is ‘my’ Star Wars – and I’m not trying to minimize that for anybody who does. Although I just made myself laugh a bit thinking about people getting ‘Han Solo Lives’ (ala ‘Frodo Lives/Han Shot First) shirts/buttons, etc.
@14. crzydroid
You make some great points. The feeling of depression did linger with me after seeing the movie despite its pluses. In fact it felt more like what I’d expect Ep 8 to feel like so goodness knows how they going to outdo that. Like you said there was this palpable sense of darkness and that really stemmed from the undoing of the OT’s character arcs. However jurys out for me because we might see more of why that was in following instalments. Perhaps this was the best way to introduce the new leads with a sufficient sense of mystery and threat, rather than Star Wars does Harry Potter with Jedi in training. Also that might be fresher in the minds of people with the prequels and the EU than the newer angle/fresh slate of ‘it all goes to hell and nothing is as you think’. I also have a weakness for the powerful and sinister villains chase afflicted and often newbie heroes across the land/space trope. It’s why Fellowship is my favourite LOTR film and why despite adoring all of BSG the first season has some of the best tension to it.
However the Starkiller plot was the weakest part of the story to me as it was for many. Too stale, even Han jokes about how they can easily get in. The x wing fighters sound bored compared to the heightened emotions you’d expect in a aerial dogfight. Also while I do think Han’s death created emotional impact and the actors made me feel like there was a bond between them despite lack of backstory, it really has spoilt the OT for me. I cant watch it now without thinking ‘little do they know that years later Han will be murdered by his own son and Luke’s student.’ What I’m going to try and do is see them as completely separate stories/trilogies. TFA can be an alternate imagining but to fully enjoy the OT Im going to have to see the end of RotJ as THE end. The end of that particular story but not to the potential and the magic of the wider Star Wars world.
Re – the Dark and Light. This is THE most interesting aspect of the new canon. I love the archetypal themes most of all from Star Wars and other films and am a student of Jungian Psychology but recently thinking about the Force and particular the failings of the jedi in the Prequels, I wonder what they will make of it in the new films. My ultimate feeling from the things Ive learnt from Jung, Eastern Philosophy and life experience is that a person is made of of both Light and Dark, by denying or repressing one, you just give it power to rise up again hence the eternal battle. The true balance would be accepting the anger, the passion, the fear but balancing that with love and understanding as Luke did in Jedi. He accepted the darkness within him and the need for love and compassion – that was the thing that brought Vader back. Luke didn’t remain ‘pure’ by denying his rage and attachment to his friends – he recognises it and recognises that to embrace it fully will lead him along his father’s dark path. But nor does he become an ascetic or a monk like Obi Wan, Yoda and their peers in the prequels, he draws strength from his love and uses it to find himself. But it isn’t easy and that what I love about Star Wars which is at its heart a fairy tale and a myth in space – it is the symbolic battle we all face within ourselves as well as a fantastic action adventure story.
It’s also interesting to be that this is the first time I believe they start to call it the Light side as well as the Dark in the films. (I know there was a reference to the light side in the EC but that was a lot later in the canon compared to the OT. There was an great article Emily I think did on Tor a few years ago about the Force which highlights the changing views. Force Awakens also makes a throwaway comment about Luke searching for the Jedi Temple and some macguffin that balances the Light and Dark which had my ears pricking up. Hopefully if they do this well as it would really elevate the new trilogy for me and advance the mythos in a way the prequels failed to. If not it could come across as very shallow and cliched which is always the danger when dealing with archetypes.
Anyways potential for light in the darkness (bad pun, I will now Force choke myself in recompense!)
@20: What I mean when I say I was disappointed I couldn’t take the kids to it is exactly what I said. That is, I was hoping it would be a fun experience for them to have, just like watching the old Star Wars movies at home is fun. Because if you hadn’t been able to infer from my comment, we DID shell out money for a babysitter A) to be able to watch the whole thing ourselves, and B) to screen it for exactly this purpose. If you also hadn’t noticed, I mentioned it would be my son’s first movie in a theater, so I don’t “usually” let them run around the movie theater screaming. My hope is that he would be able to sit through a movie, and if not, that we could walk out of the theater with him so he wouldn’t be disruptive (see part A of the reasons to get a babysitter). So at the risk of drawing the attention of the moderators, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from telling other people what they “really” mean.
Weighing in on the lightsaber visions–I thought the implication was that she had the Force power of psychometry, in that she could touch an inanimate object and tell its history through the Force. That’s why we got the Bespin corridor. So I felt like the visions were places the lightsaber had been, and not necessarily Rey’s memories; although maybe some of her own memories just started getting intermingled with them. At first when she heard the screams coming from it (before touching it), I thought maybe it was the screams of the Jedi children Anakin had killed with it, but now I’m thinking they weren’t intending that and it was Rey’s own screams she heard.
@26: What I mean by gritty is what I interpret people to mean from my reading of the context when people utter the phrase, “gritty realism.” I did not mean that the background props and vehicles were too physically dirty. And I honestly don’t understand why people think it’s a criticism of the prequels that they were stylistically newer and cleaner. That’s exactly the point. It’s intentional, just like the lived-in look was intentional in the originals. The prequels were set in a time when things were new and people actually bothered to clean and fix things, and not a war-torn era like the originals. It’s set up as a deliberate stylistic contrast to the originals to reflect the thematic background of the universe we’re seeing.
What I learned about the original trilogy is how integral the score was to my enjoyment…despite the improvements over the prequels, the only times I felt a connection, emotionally, with the new movie was when snippets of the old score came through. I don’t blame the actors…the story bored me a bit…but the score. The score might have made all the difference. The original trilogy score was just that good, and that essential, to hitting all the emotional cues…
Conversely, the visuals were stunning, though, in an subtle, understated manner. Tasteful, and artistic, sublime, even. Matches the beauty of the NEW HOPE and EMPIRE, and avoids the overdone CGI of the prequels.
@30 – yes! This for me is the ‘unforgivable’ sin of this movie. It also robs my enjoyment of the originals and seems to really undercut its main themes/character arcs and even the fact that the movie was called ‘The Return of the Jedi’…which apparently doesn’t happen (even Luke doesn’t really ‘return’). Even the prequels, for all their flaws, did not do that for me. Maybe in the end it will all somehow be redeemed but honestly, I can’t see that right now. Maybe they’ll surprise me! But I get it – it’s all part of being made for a more disillusioned/pessmistic generation. It makes sense why it came out this way.
And yes the nth power about your musings on the Force – that was exactly the kind of thing I wanted to see explored in this movie (and a huge reason I love Luke). I am guessing it will be in the next movie and that Luke has actually been doing/learning/studying stuff all this time. (Again, the name of this movie doesn’t completely fit as we don’t get a whole lot about the Force in this movie, but what we DO get is pretty interesting. I actually kind of love the concept of being tempted by the light).
I find it interesting people decry the reactions of Han, Leia and Luke with regards to Kylo Ren’s killing of the other Force-sensitive students. I mean, Kylo’s actions were akin to a school shooting. Yet people act like they should’ve just said, “Guess I’ve just got to suck it up.” I mean, their kid (and Luke’s nephew) butchered a bunch of innocent children after being seduced by some evil, shadowy Voldemort-looking jerk. People aren’t supposed to be okay after that. Is it any wonder Han decides to run and live his life as a smuggler, even a bad smuggler, when all he had to worry about was the next job, or paying back a giant slug? Or for Leia to become a general, protecting millions of citizens when she couldn’t protect her own son from the dark side? And Luke, who lost his aunt and uncle, his teachers (but not really since Ben and Yoda can just ghost it up whenever they want, what’s the deal with that anyway? Does your spiritual energy ever wear out? Does your ghost just vanish one day? If not, wouldn’t we see ghosts from Jedi dating all the way back to the beginning?) and his redeemed father, but who must’ve thought that finally the horrible struggles had come to an end, and a new batch of Jedi, free from the corrupting influence of Palpatine and the Empire, could rise and become the defenders of Justice in the galaxy, only to lose his own family to the influence of Snoke, and see all his other students butchered by him? Who can blame him, really? Long sentence. Fell apart. Too lazy to fix.
I mean, the movie was great. I loved it. It was funny and struck the right notes for me. But the original trio are dealing with some serious, serious trauma.
Word of God is that BB-8 woke R2 up: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-answers-burning-question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens:
R2 is old and takes a bit to boot up.
@34 I totally agree with you, even though perhaps my previous criticism of the undermining of the original trio’s character arcs might seem like I don’t. The undermining of their arcs is a overall story choice, where as the emotional/character choice stemming from that is spot on in all the ways you describe although I still dislike Han seeming a little more incompetent than he used to be.
In fact wherever they started the new trilogy it would have to get to this point possibly for the conflict/drama to ensue otherwise there would be no point in having the original characters back or telling another story to begin with. I think Luke was always going to have to face the Dark side again in some way because it always come back. It’s not just a one off battle, its a struggle for hearts and minds. I think one of the biggest issues i have with the prequels is that they didn’t portray that struggle realistically enough by creating a story, characters and relationships we really invested in. If Anakin and Padme’s love was more realistic we would be alot more torn when it comes into conflict with his duty. The same if his brotherhood to Obi wan was firmly established before it gets chipped then torn away. But if I start with the prequels Ill be here all day!
To tell a story you need conflict and drama and I think JJ and co took the writing lesson of skip to scene where the true conflict begins rather than having potentially long winded build up. For example I know some people are upset (including myself abit) but how would they have felt if the story started happy go lucky at Jedi High (noooo!) then the Dark elements come creeping in. Even if it was done well we’ve already seen that in the Prequels.
@Lisamarie – Thanks! PS I’ve seen your comments on the site before and its really nice to chat to you properly.
@9 – Wiredog: Yeah, I loved those guys. In ESB there’s a Star Destroyer offficer who pretends to check his datapad after Vader has finished Force choking someone else.
@16 – Random22: I like Serenity. But seeing it here is not recognizing that Serinity is inspired by Han Solo’s side of the Star Wars universe.
@19 – Starsaphire: One thing about Finn… I would have dialed down the jokes in all the movie, but he’s not a warrior, he’s a soldier. He’s grown up being part of a unit, following orders, and working side by side with his fellow soldiers. He’s not a lone gun warrior, he’s out of his depth, alone for the first time in his life, away from the only “brothers” he’s ever known.
@20 – Random22: I was thinking the same: someone needs to loose an arm here…
@22 – Anthony: We didn’t see anything to tell us there was no camaraderie amogn the troopers when they were not deployed. And I think I did see the electro-tonfa trooper react emotionally to his fellow troopers being downed by Finn… I don’t think he actually recognized Finn’s face and knew he was a traitor.
@27 – twiff: Kanaan and Ezra do consider themselves Jedi. In fact, it’s training Ezra that made Kanaan get back in the saddle after running away from the idea of being one. And I’m pretty sure Ahsoka will die at Vader’s hands at some point.
@34 – I do agree with you to a point (similar to 37). Look – as much as I love the Bantam era EU, it did get a little crazy with the plot armor. I’m certainly not saying we should have had a pollyanna happy ending type of movie. And for goodness sake I’m not saying they should all just shrug it off and go on with their lives. In the EU, Han does a similar thing, but he works through it and comes back. He doesn’t get that chance here and it’s just…not a satisfying thing to watch. I’m not saying it’s a ‘bad movie’, per se, but just that it’s not enjoyable to me.
It alsp begs the question of why the story has to even set things up like that in the first place (as opposed to some other type of conflict that is a different conflict, not something that undoes/undermines the original victories and makes the OT seem totally meaningless/devoid of any lasting impact) – although there is probably some cyclical stuff going on here. Or even something showing that yeah, they have to struggle again, but they are still in it together. Or that they had intervening years of relative peace/happiness and now have to pass the struggle on to the next generation (or maybe go out in a last blaze of glory. I don’t really object to them dying per se).
Presumably Luke still has more to do (I HOPE) but I kind of feel like Han got offed right at the low point of his arc (or maybe juuust as he was starting to climb back out of it) and that just seems like an ignoble end for him.
I don’t recall a single homage back to the prequels. Is the mouse waving his hand in the air saying “Those aren’t the Star wars you’re looking for.”
r2 is still running Window 98.
@40: The phrase “balance to the Force” was in there, which is a phrase/concept that was only ever uttered in the prequels. They also mentioned a possibility of using clones for stormtroopers. And then there was Anakin’s haircut and whiny attitude.
Oh, and possibly the lightsaber having Force echoes of murdered Jedi children…but probably not.
To the parents disappointed they can’t take their four year old children to TFA I am amazed that you ever thought that would be possible. Maybe children today are more hardened than I was, but I was watching Disney cartoons at that age and would have found any of the original series frightening. Hell I found Dr Who being watched by my older brothers terrifying.
On which note how old were you all when you watched the original series? I was in my late teens when the first film came out and though I know kids younger than me watched it I don’t recall them being pre-schoolers.
I was 14, so…can’t answer that one. :) I am a bit of an anomaly in that I didn’t see it until I was older. But I know my husband basically grew up watching it from his earliest memories. I get the impression it’s that way for many kids.
That said, my kids are actually more scared of certain Disney movies than they are of certain parts of Star Wars! So I don’t even know if its an apt comparison. If the movie had been PG I think that would have been one thing, but the fact that it was PG-13 was a bit of a red flag which was why we screened it ourselves first. (Well, we would have regardless so we would know if there were going to be any parts we needed to cover their eyes for, and also so we could enjoy it ourselves without needing to worry about taking the kids out).
My kids don’t really seem too bothered by the originals. (There are a few parts we do skip through). There are definitely some scary/intense parts but the mood is a bit different. Like, he knows there are good guys and bad guys and they are fighting and going on quests, and I think that is age appropriate, but obviously, stuff like Ep III and the new one are a lot more visceral in that imagery.
I thought the movie was bad, to put it mildly. From the lack of explanation of the Deathstar 1.0 2.0 3.0 (Did it drain the star entirely? if so was it able to go through hyperspace? And how did the atmosphere survive the twin holes in it? And why were all 5 of the planets it destroyed in the same solar system as it? Did they not notice a planet being renovated? And If not, how did the image get back so fast if they were presumably light years apart.) to the fact that the great plan of the movie was having a third deathstar, this movie was not in anyway original. The “Humor” was entirely self-conscious (Han especially). All in all, it felt like a big budge fan fiction rather than star wars.
I’m pretty sure I’ve been watching ANH since I was one (or even younger). I have no memory of a first time for that one. My first memory of Empire I was so young I just remember snow and lasers and my dad telling me it was Star Wars. When I was three going on four, I got a Return of the Jedi scout blaster for Christmas, and immediately acted out the Tantive IV corridor shoot out.
And since my kids (and others in my son’s preschool class) already love the other Star Wars movies, I thought that if this was made in the same vein, we could take at least the older one.
BTW, this IS a Disney movie. ; )
Just watched it a second time. For those wondering about R2-D2 waking up, BB-8 does NOT have the map either time he encounters R2. So it’s not the presence of the map that wakes him up. Poe only gives the map fragment back to BB-8 after R2 displays his map. It could be Chewbacca, who is sitting nearby mourning Han. My money is still on it being Rey’s presence somehow.
A couple other things I noticed. When Kylo is unsuccessfully interrogating Rey, he says something like “Genosha, the island, you’ve seen it.” He’s not talking about the map, so what does he mean?
Something I missed the first time is that this was Anakin’s light saber, and Luke’s first one that he lost at Bespin. Which means that must be one heck of a story how it ended up where it did, and that the saber wasn’t with Luke when Kylo / Ben went to the Dark Side. So Rey wasn’t seeing visions of where the saber had been. Curiouser and curiouser.
Han’s death hurt just as much the second time around.
Oh, and also that for Christmas, we got our kids a Where’s Waldo type book with scenes from all the movies, including TFA, which was clearly aimed at young kids.
@47: I’m willing to accept she had regular style Force visions in there. But the first thing she sees is clearly the Bespin hallway.
Thinking about ” balancing the Force”, Rey seemed to access it in anger, and meditatively. Dark and Light. Interesting.
@47 “The ocean, the island, you have seen it?” is what he says to Rey. Obviously he knows where Luke was going.
As far as Han’s death goes, I dunno, it hits me but A) I was pretty sure it was going to happen and B) that’s how it goes some times, our heroes do dumb shit and die ignoble deaths(see Chris Kyle). Plus, to me I wonder more how this will hit Leia, and it makes me excited she’ll have a bigger role.
In her eyes, it was HER plea to Han to save Ben that got him killed! So she’s not only grieving, she has to feel so guilty.
Was flipping through a couple of the new Dorling-Kindersley books (Visual Guide and Cross-Sections) and I begin to wonder how many questions those would answer upon close reading.
@51 – I knoooow, I was thinking along the same lines. Kind of a ‘Nice Job Breaking it, Hero’ moment for her. Like, that’s really got to hurt. :( :( :(
I totally missed the significance of the ocean/island thing – at first I thought it was possibly a memory from her past life but now I am wondering if it’s somehow foreshadowing to her finding Luke on the island in the ocean at the end. And yes, Kylo does seem to speak of it (and of Rey in some other scenes) with recognition. Unless maybe was that the site of Luke’s original temple and they were both there at some point? (But if that were the case, it wouldn’t be such a mystery). Hmmmm….
God, for somebody who didn’t like the movie, I can’t stop talking about it :P
@50 – hmm, I had a similar thought. Like perhaps balance to the Force is in some ways learning to meld both the light and dark side. I don’t mean good and evil, but just that (similar to Luke in the OT) realizing that things like anger and emotion aren’t in and of themselves bad. Which is kind of what I was hoping Luke would be figuring out regarding things like attachments and passion – finding a healthy way to integrate them that isn’t self-seeking or focused on control of others/circumstances. (I’m also just self-aware enough to recognize my own inability to let go of what I want for the story and characters is partially why I don’t enjoy the movie as much as I could, but…it is what it is. That’s my reaction).
In the final WoT books (switching franchises) there is a really great scene where Nyneave (my favorite character) takes her Aes Sedai test and the point is to do it in perfect calm. She is a very fiery person and almost fails it but basically schools the old school Aes Sedai about how they SHOULD be feeling emotions at he face of all the suffering, etc they encounter.
Anyway, Luke better be the BAMFest BAMF to ever BAMF by the end of this, haha.
A few thoughts about the movie and comments; I’ve only seen the movie once so my memory of the movie might be rusty. Finn was assigned to sanitation before his first mission. By no means is he a warrior or an experienced fighter. Considering how marriages can easily fall apart due to a traumatic event involving the children, why is it so hard to believe Leia and Han split up. I would call your son turning to the dark side traumatic and we don’t know the full story yet. I believe it was mentioned that they retrieved to a part of their life that was comfortable and/or familiar. Going back to working for a resistance or a smuggler is plausible. Overall I liked the new characters introduced and am looking forward to their stories. However, I found the older characters lacking. Blame the acting or the script? Leia felt wooden and it seemed Han was used for comedy relief at times, which I would not have minded if it was funny. For example, I find it unlikely that, in the movie, it was the first time Han has ever fired Chewie’s bowcaster.
I did not hate the movie but neither did I walk out of the movie with overwhelming joy. For any movie, some suspension of disbelief is required but just seeing the Starkiller base from outer space totally took me out of the movie. A lot of the Starkiller base subplot did not work for me. That might change after a second viewing but the premise seemed ridiculous to me. I’m sure somewhere there are technical babble stuff that will explain it out but for the time being it bothers me. Someone smarter than me explain it to me?
Didn’t see this mentioned in the main article, but is everyone aware the final scene has Luke standing next to an obvious grave stone (possibly of his wife/Mara Jade)?
@57, Or the grave stones of his former students
@51. @53:
Seeing visions of Luke on an island in the ocean in the Living Force doesn’t mean Kylo knows what planet the island is on.
I’m more and more liking the theory that Kylo Ren abandoned Rey on Jakku. That he just couldn’t kill the five year old. That ties in nicely to feeling he’s weaker than Darth Vader, and completely makes it a twisting dagger that REY is the one to throw that in his face. Rey, the youngling he spared when Anakin spared none.
@59, I know he doesn’t the specifics of where Luke went, but he knew the location, the first Jedi Temple.
@60, I don’t agree
@57/58 – That’s…really kind of sad. I just want to give him a hug, hah! That said, the pic is a little blurry so I am not 100% it’s a gravestone (and not just something that is part of that location before they started filming) and even if it is, we’re still not clear yet if this is the site of his temple, or the first temple that he finally found (in which case, why would his wife/students be buried there?).
@60 – I’m still not sure how much I buy into that theory yet (although I kind of like it) but I do think the symbolism of him being able to spare a youngling while Anakin could not is kind of interesting.
@55 – not sure if you are addressing me specifically (since I’m the only one who really brought it up) but…I hear you. It’s a realistic thing, and certainly well and sensitively done within the context of the movie. It’s just, you know, why does somebody even have to come up with a story where that’s the logical conclusion in the first place. And probably a better writer than me could come up with a way to make them stay together (if not wounded) while still facing those ups and downs. (Although, given that my initial read of the timelines was way off I think there were probably together a lot longer than I initially thought, and only somewhat recently split and were in the process of coming back to each other/making peace before Kylo was a jerk and RUINED IT ALL).
@46 – crzydroid: No, it’s not a Disney film. It’s a Lucasfilm movie, and Lucasfilm is owned by Disney the company, not Disney the studio. Lost is made by ABC, and ABC is owned by Disney. Jessica Jones is co-produced by Marvel Studios, and they’re owned by Disney. And so on.
@47 – Nick31: Abrams already said it was BB-8 that wakes up R2. And I doubt Kylo said “Genosha”, or he’s read too many X-Men comics. :) Rey wasn’t necessary seeing stuff connected to the saber, I think that the saber’s strong Force connection (due to its past owner) opened up the floodgates on her connection to the Force.
@54 – Lisamarie: I don’t know what WoT is, but “Sedai” sounds awfuly similar to “Jedi”. :) (EDIT: Wheel of Time, I get it now.)
@62, I know for a fact that if my child died, or worse, her father and I wouldn’t be together anymore. I really don’t see why you have such a hard time with the fact that most relationships are not for “forever”. They were my OTP too. As I’ve said, I consider myself married to Han Solo, so the story really hit home for me. See my partner never wanted to have a family, because his life was so shitty he never wanted to inflict that on another person. And against all those odds, he FOUND that happiness, surrounded by a loving family. If that was taken away from him, it would just confirm to him that he was always right, he didn’t deserve any of that, that’s why he didn’t get to keep it, and he would go back to the loner lifestyle he lived before we made a family together.
@63, Except it’s already pointed out, Abrams contradicts what the movie shows us. Abrams said it was because BB8 had the map. But the first time when Artoo doesn’t wake up, BB8 has the map. The second time, when Artoo does wake up, BB8 no longer has it, Poe does.
Slightly spoilerific as it was posted two weeks before the movie came out, but Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy already said that they have big plans for Captain Phasma. So no, she didn’t end up in the trash compactor… or she at least survived and escaped!
@65, That doesn’t mean she can’t just be appearing in pre movie stuff.
@63: It was a joke, hence the winky face.
@56: Souns awesome! I’m going to fly to Delhi and book that escort right away!
To the people saying the split is realistic given the tragedy they faced: It rests entirely on acceptance of Kylo Ren somehow needing to be their son who turned to the Dark Side for the story to work. Kylo Ren could’ve been anyone; the story only turned out this way because the writers made it this way. And the problem isn’t necessarily that he goes there, but that he ENDS there. And quite frankly, that’s never what Star Wars has been about. That may work great in other stories/genres, but not Star Wars.
@67 And the problem isn’t necessarily that he goes there, but that he ENDS there.
Except the story hasn’t ended. This is the first act.
@64 – Aeryl: I think Abrams says R2 simply takes too long to boot up.
@69, Or more likely, what’s in the novelization was changed in the film, because the novel was finished months before the movie was
Being that now the novels are part of the canon; I’m pretty sure there won’t be anything that’s too different from the movie (the movie’s script was also finished months ago, and the book was only published right after the movie opened), just more insight into character mindsets, etc.
I think directors need to start doing WAFO (watch and find out) instead of answering questions because at times they seem to contradict their own movies. Fandom can and will pick on any small details that don’t make sense or contradicts canon. But being a WOT fan, I’m use to Jordan’s hundreds of RAFOs or needing to check with his assistant first answers so if a director doesn’t answer or says right out that he didn’t know, it wouldn’t bother me.
I think with the Artoo thing, it maybe would have made a little more sense to add a visual cue the first time BB-8 rolls up that something is happening; maybe something very subtle that you would only notice on second glance so it doesn’t give away the surprise that he’s about to wake up. Because I agree that part was a bit head-scratchy and seemed a little too ‘because plot said so’.
I think it’s safe to say we don’t know yet where Kylo will end up. I have a few (contradicting) ideas so we’ll see. Han’s story is definitely done though. Which is sad.
Like I said, it’s a matter of perspective – I know couples who have lost children and absolutely worked through it and were each others’ strength. (I have also seen examples of the opposite). So it’s not so much that it’s realistic or not realistic (both options can be realistic, even if the story does demand the cyclical nature of making Kylo another Skywalker struggling with his dark side legacy) or that it wasn’t portrayed well – but, just more that I don’t like it and takes away a lot of what I personally enjoyed from the story and its general atmosphere. It’s 100% a subjective argument on my part. It wasn’t on Tor, but elsewhere, somebody was trying to answer criticisms about all the wonky science/astrophysics and he was basically taking the tack that SW is wish fulfillment and space fantasy so it’s okay that not everything is explained. I don’t get too hung up on all the science parts myself (although I can understand why others might be really annoyed by it and it takes them out of the movie, or desire more internal consistency) but I thought the wish fulfillment was interesting, because obviously that’s not a wish I have for characters that I love, or (if I related to the characters) for myself.
“I really don’t see why you have such a hard time with the fact that most relationships are not for “forever”.” – I’m not actually sure what you mean by that? If by hard time, do you mean, ‘don’t understand that’s how things work usually’ – I wouldn’t say that is true. But it terms of it making me deeply unhappy? For me it’s kind of hard to understand why others DON’T have such a hard time with it. Because relationships and family are part of the thing I base my life on and I think the ending of a marriage/breaking up of a family is one of the worst things that can happen (I’m sure we could think of several tragic and gruesome exceptions but you get my drift. Also, to be clear if we’re talking about cases of abuse, the worst thing is the abuse itself, not a person’s decision to leave. But that’s not really what happened here). I don’t watch a lot of romcoms; and ESB certainly isn’t one, but generally when you watching something like that, it’s to see them get together because, presumably after whatever other relationships that didn’t work out they all had, it’s fun to watch the happy ending. When it’s not a happy ending anymore…it’s not as fun. It almost makes it feel like a “ha! fooled you!” moment. And I probably do have a problem with not being able to enjoy moments as moments, but always taking in the whole picture so…there’s that.
The Han/Leia relationship isn’t exactly the keystone of where the Star Wars saga rests, so it maybe in the scheme of the whole story isn’t that big of a deal. I think Han died a good man, doing the right thing and Leia and Han dealt with the circumstances the story gave them in more or less the best way they could, given the constraints of the way the story was crafted (esp. now that I feel a little clearer on the timeline). Perhaps we’ll see that his sacrifice ultimately brings good from evil, which IS, I think, one of the main points. I think their scenes together were really good and showed a lot of latent tenderness/affection there (in some ways it reminds me of how my relationship with my ex turned out – despite our best efforts and mutual affection, it just didn’t work out (no tragedy required) – but since I’ve moved on and married it’s not totally the same). I just want morrrrrre for them!
It’s kind of a really weird feeling, because as a self contained entity I love the movie and also the story it is gearing up to tell. If this was the start of a story I probably wouldn’t bat an eye at it, except to be sad about the backstory. But I don’t love how the two sagas now flow together. So it adds up to liking, not loving, the movie, and also not sure it’s what I care for my headcanon of the general saga to be. It doesn’t mean I think other people can’t like it (I’ve been recommending the movie to people who ask me) or that it’s not objectively good (I have no desire to get into ‘true fan’ posturing. We are all here for different reasons and get different things out of it). It is just not the most enjoyable movie experience it could be for me, and doesn’t do for me what the originals did.
To use an analogy – it’s like taking a drink from your glass of chocolate milk and getting orange juice instead. I actually like orange juice just fine and even prefer it sometimes, but I’m still going to be gagging and spitting it out. So that’s where I am right now. Still gagging and spluttering ;)
Agh. Sorry. I keep repeating myself. I’m sorry!
@71:
That is neither how movies nor publishing works. Editing can change details of a story right up until the final cut, which Abrams said he finished nine days before the release. Scripts are guidelines directors and editors go by when assembling a movie. Frequently, dialog that changes the entire context of a scene is removed and lifted, and then used in another scene, which changes ITS context, because of pacing and other reasons they can’t know about until everything is in the can.
And even a compressed lead time on editing and printing and shipping a book to distributors is two months. So JJ made at LEAST 6 weeks worth of changes to the movie ( an eternity ) from the time the text in the novelization was set until the time the movie was locked (9 days before premiere).
And as far as canon goes… the novels and comics and video games are now canon. Novelizations are different than novels. Any discrepancies between the movie and the novelization will most likely be corrected in future editions of the novelization. Any additional information that doesn’t contradict the movie can safely be included in canon, of course. But its just not possible to have a novelization and a movie with the same release date NOT have contradictions and changes, because that’s not how filmmaking works. Changes are made, even to dialog, right up until the final release, that change the way things seem.
@73 Han’s story is definitely done though
Except it’s not. There is a ton of new information we could get that casts what’s happened in a different light.
When it’s not a happy ending anymore…it’s not as fun. It almost makes it feel like a “ha! fooled you!” moment.
This is just like those “murdered my childhood” arguments, IMO. The happy ending still exists. No one took it away from you. You go hit play on Return of the Jedi, in two hours, that happy ending will still be there, that moment of triumph and camaraderie. But stories NEVER end. That’s what is beautiful about them. We continue and so do the characters.
Was your marriage over on your wedding day? Did the fact that not every day is your wedding day make you marriage worth less? Does the fact that you still occasionally disagree mean that happiness of your wedding day was a “ha! fooled you!” moment?
@75 – I actually basically responded to this in the other thread so I’ll not do it here :) But that is actually the crux of my problem is that my personality makes it really difficult for me to do that; whether that’s a flaw or just another way of being/experiencing the world remains to be seen :) As to your wedding question…disagreements, no. :) If one of us dies, even tragically – I’d say no to that too, even though that would be horrible. BUT, if one of us dies shortly after learning the other was cheating or did something really horrible, or even just in some state of non resolved conflict; that’s where I’d probably end up having a lot of mental health problems.
I AM hoping for more information to cast it in a different light, but I’m also kind of trying to prepare myself for there not to be.
And, you know, assuming if there is more info, it better not be something like ‘Guess what! Han was also part of a human trafficking ring that whole time!’ No, I don’t think they’ll do that, and I’m being facetious/hyperbolic (not trying to equate ending up having a rough relationship with slavery), but sometimes more information doesn’t make it better, haha. Then again, maybe we’ll find out he was actually saving slaves and working for a good cause ;)
Having just seen the movie today I found the writing to be standard for Abrams which is not good but passable with some clunky modernisms and way too much exposition.
The one element of style that really bothered me which no one seems to have noticed is that the blasters seem to do a more spectacular kind of damage and light sabers seem to do less damage.
When people are shot with blaster fire in this movie they spiral and backflip and fall in many many many ways. This is a difference from when blasters just hit someone with a smoke or flash and then the fell. Yes it is still violence but somehow this new acrobatic violence seems more aggressive.
on the other hand light sabers seem to have lost the limb lopping ability that they had in the previous movies. just a slice on the back or a scar on the face instead of slicing through flesh like warm butter.
Granted the characters had to live so it wold not have been plot driven to have lightsabers that worked the way the previous ones had worked but since one of them was supposed to be a previous lightsaber that one should have taken his head off.
The argument that TFA ruins the “happy ending” of RotJ is very peculiar to me — has no one ever watched a James Bond movie? Practically every Bond films ruins the “happy ending” of the previous film, and no one seems to complain.
@78/StrongDreams: But there’s a difference – James Bond films do not tell an ongoing story.
@78: What James Bond movie has a happy ending? Spectre seemed to be pretty much the exception, most others made sure that any chance of a long-term relationship died in front of him (e.g. On Her Majesty’s Secret Service, Casino Royale). I’m not counting any drifting-away-into-the-sunset-while-sleeping-with-the-girl endings that were typical for the Roger Moore era, because we all knew that that was at most a vacation.
@79: Well, the Daniel Craig movie’s seem to go for one, especially Quantum of Solace and Spectre.
@71 – Anthony: Please, don’t underestimate me. I understand (mostly) how film production works, and I know firsthand how book publishing works. Yes, there will be things in the novelization that might contradict the film and will be retconned or fixed somehow. But there is a lot of background information for the characters and events that doesn’t make it to the dialogues or events shown on film, but that the director keeps in mind while filming, and tells the actors for their motivations, etc.
Will there be some stuff that will be superseded by future movie scripts? Yes, of course, particularly considering that the next two episodes have different scriptwriters than this one. But for now, those things are canon, and I’m pretty sure most of it will remain so.
I dont think Kyle Ren is bad, I believe he is a spy for Luke. Here are my clues, Kyle begs Vader to let him be strong to finish the work he started ( get rid of the Emperor or Empire); Ren probes his mind and discovers he’s afraid he wont be as strong as Vader( to go back to light ), Kyle asks Ren if she was on the island(looking for the younglings), Kyle begs his father to help him with something( gaining trust of Snoke) I think Han confronting Kyle forced Kyle to kill him or appear to kill him. And it worked, Snoke trust him completely now and demands his prescence to finish his training. If this is not true then Abrams is insulting every Star Wars fan by just rehashing and tweeking old stories; I refuse to believe it is that simple
If he’s a spy, he’s fallen to the dark side, because even if he didn’t kill Han, he killed Lor San Tekka in cold blood, and has probably done other worse things in the service of the First Order.
True, but maybe greater good argument, i cant buy that the plot is this simple
Well I kind of want to latch on to this idea just because I don’t want Han and Leia to have lost their son…but I don’t know. But I think if anything, the plot is not simple. :) Whatever it turns out being. (Although I kind of like the Snape parallel!)
@Strong Dreams. James Bond? I think that might be a bit apples and oranges. Those are definitely different genres and styles. But I’ve only seen one James Bond movie anyway (one of the Brosnan ones). And at any rate, I think the reason to see a Bond movie is for intrigue and mysteries and all that. They’re not really telling (as far as I know) a story with a real arc. Heck, I’ve even heard the argument that Bond himself isn’t even really the same person but just a title.
One of my favorite books is Lolita, which probably has the most depressing ending ever (especially if you read the foreword again after finishing the book and realize what really happened) but I think it’s really important and powerful. Honestly, I’m not sure if I’ll ever read it again. Even Lord of The Rings (my very favorite) is actually incredibly depressing in some ways. Frodo doesn’t win and in fact (according to Tolkien) never could have won. He’s wounded permanently (both physically and spiritually). Of course, there are several ways to do that story. Tolkien could have ended it with Sam being forced to push Frodo into the chasm. Instead it ends with his previous act of mercy saving him and the Eagles showing up to rescue them – but even for Frodo, that’s not enough and he has to leave Middle Earth. And in fact, they go to the very home they were fighting to save to find it destroyed, or at least seriously mucked with. But yet it stil somehow seems to blend that realism (no completely happy endings) with a sense of hope, which (at least at first) I didn’t get from this movie (like I did with the originals), maybe because the mood whiplash from 6 to 7 was just too overpowering for me at the time and it threw me for a huge loop. It’s possible I’ll be able to rewatch it again, and also see what the other movies do with the story, and find that hope spot. I suppose it’s silly to expect narrative satisfaction from the first in a trilogy.
@Lisa Marie, I will definitely say that this one concluded with a lot more tension for the future that ANH did. ANH concludes with the award ceremony, TFA ends with Rey holding out the lightsaber, hoping against hope she had found her teacher, hoping she won’t have rejected her chance at finding her own family, only to be rejected by Luke. And the audience is even more tense, wondering WHO she is.
But that just EXCITES me.
I know, right! The urge to rewatch is strong…
It makes sense that they could end it on more of a cliffhanger, since ANH had to be more of a standalone movie, and this does not. This is almost like Empire Strikes Back in some ways.
@78 while your ESB comparison makes sense (esp with Finn being out of things), I have to say the thing I thought of the most of the end, was that they were borrowing a bit from their Disney stablemates at Marvel. We basically got the Marvel credits stinger for the next movie with Rey meeting Luke, it just happened before the credits for this film.
I’m in agreement that it looks like they started with the ESB of the trilogy.
While it’s true we saw Finn reacting, why do you assume that’s who Kylo was yelling at?
Exactly.
. png
People keep talking about Artoo coming out so sleep mode when Rey gets back, which is true, on a basic level.
What no-one I’ve seen mention yet is that although she doesn’t have the segment of map that BB-8 had, and was already on site at the resistance base, she does bring an important piece of tech that hadn’t been there for a long time: Luke’s lightsabre.
As for so many people apparently being fixated on Rey being a Skywalker: I really, really hope she isn’t. The last thing that Star Wars needs (IMHO, of course) is to turn every single important event in this galaxy to be All About The Skywalkers. Ugh.
I can’t think of anything that would turn me off from the entire franchise more effectively or faster than that.
As for so many people talking about Ben being ‘oh so powerful’, I really didn’t get that. He’s got some force powers, definitely, but all we see is some limited force-telekinesis and some mind-reading. (Which is a new Force power, note. No Jedi or Sith has demonstrated mind-reading in any of the previous 6 films. Vader and the Emperor showed the ability to read some of Luke’s emotions during the climax of Jedi, but no actual mind-reading. So he has that, at least.)
Ben has no control over his emotions, we see this over and over again, and controlling your emotions is one place where both the Jedi and the Sith find common ground. Ben can’t even manage that. He’s a spoiled brat throughout the entire movie.
He actually struggles briefly against Finn, whereas a trained Jedi or Sith would have just been able to disarm or cut him in half without batting an eye. He has even more trouble than Luke did with force-pulling Luke’s lightsabre to him, and arguably that wasn’t him that did manage it at all, but rather was Rey doing it.
And then she proceeded to comprehensively kick his whiny little butt, despite his supposed training at the hands of Snoke and her utter lack of anything other than the myths to rely on. She manages it because she listens to those myths and controls her emotions. (We’ve seen nothing at all to suggest that Snoke is powerful with the Force, either, and that hugely overpowering hologram set-up just screams ‘compensation’. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)
Personally, I find the idea more interesting and believable that he turned to the Dark Side because he’s NOT as strong in the Force as he thinks he deserves to be. The nephew and grandson of two of the most famous force-users in recent history, and the son of another force-sensitive, and he’s only middling with the Force?
THAT would absolutely rate as the source of his rage and belief that he’s owed much more power and respect.
Actually, I was mistaken: We do see Ben do one really impressive thing with the Force: Stopping the blaster-bolt that Poe fires at him.
But that was the only time he was impressive, possibly because that was before we saw him do his little tantrum act.
Repeatedly.
@@@@@@jaydzed – I think in some ways that’s the POINT of Kylo Ren’s character. He perhaps has some raw power/new talents but in general he’s nowhere as ‘cool’ as Vader (which Rey herself even points out). Heck, even his heart isn’t fully into ‘being evil’. It’s almost like he’s going through an identity crisis. Where he’ll end up…nobody can say (I’m hoping for a bittersweet ending but we shall see).
But I acutally quite like your theory that he’s bitter over a lack of Force power; this is very similar to, but also different from Anakin who felt like his great powers entitled him to be able to ‘fix’ everything. Perhaps is quest to the dark side is his way of trying to get the power he feels is his birthright.
https://mobile.twitter.com/kylor3n
Oh god,this. My cousins showed me this and I could not stop laughing. Granted, I was a bit tipsy.
@91 – JayDzed: But Star Wars already is about the Skywalkers. Have you seen the first six movies? :)
And Ben struggles gainst Finn because Chewbacca shot him with a bowcaster, a weapon that we saw several times in the movie blow people away several feet in the air. Ben took the shot, he’s heavily wounded. He has trouble pulling the lightsaber to him with TK because Rey is also doing it.
I do believe Snoke could turn out ot be non-Force sensitive. I’ve been saying that since I saw the film.
@94 – Lisamarie: It’s very funny. I love the tweet about the mixtape.
@95 Re: the Skywalkers – all along I thought the movies were about the redemption of the Skywalker line, but maybe they’re basically the Targaryens – either insane or awesome. :-)
The incest was implied. :)
@jaydzed, Except Finn had brought the lightsaber previously
@97 Bwahahaha, I hadn’t even thought of that…
Wow, so articulate…