No question animates the mind of a young speculative fiction fan more than “Who would win?” It’s a question that provokes our firmest cultural loyalties and the lizard part of our brain that enjoys nothing more than smashing action figures together. It’s a question that’s lead to untold hours of heated discussion, ruined hundreds of friendships, and earned billions of dollars at the box office with movies like Captain America: Civil War and Batman v Superman. It’s hardly a new phenomenon either: King Kong and Godzilla first faced off in 1962, and it’s easy to imagine that the earliest versions of The Iliad arose from heated debates over campfires about who’d win in a fight, Achilles or Hector.
One cultural phenomenon that’s largely escaped “Who Would”-ism is the legendarium of J.R.R. Tolkien. Peter Jackson’s Hobbit trilogy gave us a few battles we didn’t know we wanted, and still don’t (Legolas vs. Bolg; Thranduil vs. The Scenery). Sure, there have been a few articles imagining Aragorn facing off against Jaime Lannister and the like, but they’re relatively rare compared to the heated “Captain America vs. Batman” or “Ninjas vs. Pirates” discussions that pop up regularly over pizza and pipe-weed.
There are a couple of reasons for this. First, Middle-earth has a certain literary cachet other pop cultural universes lack. Tolkien was a professor at Oxford, of course, and The Lord of the Rings is a foundational text of High Fantasy, and retains a lofty air. Second, the central characters of Tolkien’s most widely read books are the diminutive and good-natured hobbits, who are hard to press into the service of battling other heroes. There’s not much fun to be had in imagining Frodo Baggins locked in a fight to the death with a pre-Hogwarts Harry Potter (Frodo would win … and feel absolutely terrible about it).
Still, Middle-earth is rife with interesting match-ups and none more so than a battle between the last surviving Dark Powers of Fire in the Third Age: What if Smaug had sought the treasures of Moria rather than Erebor, and so woke Durin’s Bane? Who would win?
TO THE MYTHOPOEIC THUNDERDOME!
First, let’s introduce our contenders:
Balrogs and dragons both originated in the First Age as servants of Morgoth, the first and greatest Dark Lord. Of the Maiar spirits Morgoth seduced to his service, “Dreadful … were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.”
As Legolas later says of the Balrog in Moria, Balrogs are “of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.” And indeed, in The Silmarillion, the Balrogs rank above all Morgoth’s servants, aside from Sauron himself. Their primary narrative purpose in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings is to provide an appropriately noble and titanic death for the greatest heroes: Feanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, and Gandalf the Grey all meet their ends in combat with these evils of the ancient world (one can’t help but wonder what would have happened had Glorfindel accompanied the Fellowship of the Ring as Elrond originally intended: would he have taken Gandalf’s place in fighting the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dum and shouted “Not this shit again!” instead of “Fly, you fools!” as he tumbled into the abyss?)
The origins of dragons are murkier. Tolkien never tells us how they came to be, though in The Children of Húrin, the first dragon Glaurung, “spoke by the evil spirit that was in him.” It’s likely, then, that the first dragons were Maia spirits animating mortal bodies—like Wizards, but with scales and fire (think how much more effective Radagast would have been as an enormous, flaming horror reptile).
As in George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire, Tolkien’s dragons serve as weapons of mass destruction—and, in fact, in the earliest versions of Tolkien’s legendarium, the “dragons” that destroy the Elven city of Gondolin are war machines, not actual creatures. Tolkien eventually changed them to match the more familiar image of the dragon of Western folklore, though the dragons of Middle-earth are also highly intelligent, sardonic, and enjoy fucking with people. Glaurung sows destruction in The Silmarillion with both his fiery breath and his skill at mind-control and manipulation. He hypnotizes Túrin Turambar and his sister Nienor into committing incest and then suicide, which is a dick move even for a lizard from hell.
Now, how do they stack up?
The texts don’t provide much evidence for our battle. Dragons and Balrogs never face off in Middle-earth, though they are present together at a few battles during the First Age. When Glaurung first comes forth in the Battle of Sudden Flame, “in his train were Balrogs.” This suggests the Balrogs were subservient to Glaurung, or at least acting as his support.
More tellingly, in the War of Wrath that brings an end to Morgoth’s reign and the First Age, “the Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.” The release of the winged dragons—Smaug’s ancestors—however, was “so sudden and ruinous…that the host of the Valar were driven back.” Tolkien doesn’t provide the number of dragons or Balrogs here, so we can’t know how much the sheer quantity of Balrogs and dragons played a part. Still, the dragons proved more effective in battle.
Then there’s Gandalf the Grey, who managed to kill a Balrog single-handed, but decided to manipulate some Dwarves and one very reluctant hobbit into dealing with Smaug. Granted, Gandalf didn’t set out to face a Balrog, and he died in the process (…he got better), but it’s telling that he didn’t even try to take down Smaug by himself. Of course, the Gandalf the Grey in The Hobbit is, in many ways, a different character from the Gandalf the Grey in The Lord of the Rings—as different, really, as he is from Gandalf the White. In The Hobbit, he’s a different, less powerful incarnation of the same being.
So we’re left to our overexcited imaginations to imagine how this fight would play out. And thank Eru for that—it’s far more fun:
So, the first thing any self-respecting wyrm is going to do is unleash his fiery breath—but this wouldn’t phase a scourge of fire like a Balrog.
Balrogs have a few weapons available to them: flaming swords, whips of many thongs, and magic. A flaming sword probably isn’t much good against a dragon, and spells don’t seem to work well on them either: the Elves of Nargothrond surely had magic to spare, but that didn’t stop Glaurung from turning their fortress-home into his own personal Scrooge McDuck-style money vault.
That leaves the Balrog with his whip of many thongs, which he could use to hogtie Smaug. Except that Smaug’s “teeth are swords, my claws spears”, and could cut through the thongs. Even if the Balrog’s whips are impervious to dragon teeth and claws, Smaug can quickly flap his wings and fly out of range.
Now, I know what you’re going to say: but Balrogs have wings! Sure, they have wings. But so do ostriches, and you don’t see them flocking high in the skies over Africa. Even if Balrogs can fly—and nothing Tolkien ever wrote indicates that they can—then they clearly suck at it. Of the few Balrogs we know about, two fell into chasms—Durin’s Bane and the one defeated by Glorfindel. That is not a promising record for winged demons of terror.
So Smaug can keep a healthy distance from his demonic opponent, but that doesn’t help him win. More importantly, flight leaves Smaug vulnerable. It exposes the small bare patch on his underbelly—his only weakness. Balrogs are great warriors, and even if they fly about as well as dead penguins, they can probably hurl a flaming sword with pinpoint accuracy.
Smaug stays on the ground. The dragon’s flames and the Balrog’s weapons are useless. We’re down to grappling, with the great wyrm and the demon of terror locked in a desperate, deathly, fiery embrace.
But wait! Smaug has one last weapon: his eyes. We don’t know if Smaug could freeze people and mind-control them as well as his forebear Glaurung, but just glimpsing Smaug’s eye made Bilbo want “to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell.”
Theoretically, then, up close or at a distance, Smaug’s eyes can put Durin’s Bane under the dragon-spell. But then, would the dragon-spell work against a demon of terror?
Dragons and Balrogs are both, in origin, Maia spirits. Smaug isn’t Maiar, but his power is equivalent. And we know the power of one Maia can affect other Maiar. After all, Sauron’s Ring is a terrible temptation to both Gandalf and Saruman. And in the Chamber of Mazarbul, Gandalf and Durin’s Bane exchange spells and counterspells that the wizard says, “nearly broke me.”
So, one glimpse into Smaug’s eyes and the Balrog falls under the spell. Even if it’s just for a second—a moment of hesitation or distraction, it’d be enough. Smaug would snatch up Durin’s Bane and gobble him up with his sword-sharp teeth (and we know swords can kill Balrogs).
There you have it. Who would win in a battle between Smaug and Durin’s Bane? The winner is the wyrm. And we can imagine Smaug curled up comfortably on a bed of mithril deep in Khazad-dûm, triumphant, stronger than ever. And probably a little gassy.
Austin Gilkeson formerly served as The Toast‘s Tolkien Correspondent, and his writing has also appeared at Catapult and Cast of Wonders. He lives outside Chicago with his wife and son.
Look, that is a really nice breakdown you wrote. But the fact remains that Smaug was felled by a single arrow. There is no way a Balrog of Morgorth would lose to him. It just… well… It’s Inconceivable!
I tend to think a First Age Balrog would beat a latter-day dragon. If this were Durin’s Bane vs. Ancalagon the Black or Glaurung, it’d go the other way. Smaug was impressive for his time, but unless the Balrog’s life in Moria sapped its power, it’d probably snap Smaug’s wings off or something, then break his neck like Snyderman did Zod’s.
What’d Smaug ever do to train for that type of fight? Out-compete other Third Age dragons? They were probably weak siblings. Run some dwarves off their mountain? Massacre unarmed people in Dale?
That Balrog was probably at Gondolin and survived fights with hordes of bright-eyed Noldor, and managed not to be captured by the Valar. It also took down the most powerful Dwarf kingdom, vs. the survivors sanctuary at the Lonely Mountain.
Gandalf played Thorin’s Company against Smaug because he knew they could handle him, not because he didn’t think he could himself. Yet the Balrog was a foe beyond any of the Fellowship. Smaug may have left Moria alone because of the rumor of the Balrog. I think he knew what was what.
I’m going with Matt here.
The dragons which are compared to Balrogs in the Silmarillion are the great terrors of Morgoth, compared to whom Smaug is a tiny wyrmling. How will a dread gazer work against a Balrog? Tolkien mentions the deadly terror inspired by many such creatures. I’d think that either they would cancel each other out or begin their battle with a stare down. Actually, thinking about it, the stare down seems both awesome and likely.
Glaurung would very likely be able to gobble up a few Balrogs before even getting a stomach ache, but on Durin’s Bane against Smaug, my bet is either on the demon of terror or, more likely, a tie.
Team Balrog!
@2, @3 +1
Smaug is a pale shadow of his great grandaddy.
Toughie, to be sure. Too many variables! While I’m inclined to agree with commenters above that “a demon of the ancient world,” like Durin’s Bane—who almost certainly participated in various battles in the First Age, and is one of the ones that “fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth” after the War of Wrath—would probably be able to best Smaug in combat, I also don’t think it’s fair to say that Gandalf couldn’t take on Smaug. Rather, I think he wouldn’t. The Istari were forbidden from unleashing their full might openly, if at all, and so just waltzing into the Lonely Mountain and to personally oust Smaug would be something Gandalf would never do.
He never planned on the Moria Balrog; at best he knew encountering Durin’s Bane was a possibility, and he tried very hard to avoid it. Only when backed into a corner, when sucked down into the chasm out of the sight of his squishier friends, did he throw down with his opponent fully and unleash some of that secret fire. And it still killed him.
Matt beat me to it. One of the primary themes throughout Tolkien’s worldbuilding is the diminishing of the players over time. Everything dwindles, and the primary actors in the Third Age are just shadows of the scale and strength of the previous Ages. I’m not sure how many generations removed Smaug is from Glaurung and Ancalagon, but like you say, he’s not a Maiar – he’s just a flesh and blood giant fire-breathing murder-lizard. I’m not sure Durin’s Bane would actually kill him, I imagine Smaug would probably run before it came to that, but I do think the dragon would get the worse beating.
Come to think of it, COULD Durin’s Bane be killed by simple physical trauma? Its battle with Gandalf was as much spiritual and an issue of willpower as it was them actually punching each other up a staircase and down a mountain.
Yup, I think Matt and R A J P have said it better than I could. I agree.
I think William brings up an important point too!
@7, Maiar, once encased in squishy flesh bodies, become subject to the weaknesses and temptations of the flesh. Hence Radagast and Sauruman becoming distracted from their missions. Gandalf’s flesh body died, his spirit went to Valinor, and by the grace of the Valar, he was returned to Middle Earth in a new flesh body. Presumably the Balrog’s flesh body also died and his spirit went to Valinor, but he probably did not get as warm a welcome.
(Did Tolkien ever write about that in his letters? Presumably Valinor is home to the elves who are alive in body having traveled there in the FA; as well as the spirits of the elves who died in the kinslaying; the spirits of the elves who murdered their kin, went back to ME, and died there; and the living elves who returned during the TA and FA. How do they all get along? Do Melian and the Balrogs hang out and swap stories? Is there a prison in Valinor for the bad Maia?)
(Although that leaves the question of, if the Balrog was a flesh creature, how did it survive for thousands of years without eating. Or did it eat, things that crawl and lurk in the darkness.)
@7 Exactly.
I came back to clarify a point and you basically did it for me—anything with power from the First Age has a serious advantage over anything from the Third Age. That Balrogs could be defeated by Elves (through mutual death) says as much about the Elves of the day as it does the Balrogs, and little to say in defense of the idea they’d stack up unfavorably next to a Third Age dragon.
The closest thing to Smaug we have from the First Age is probably young Glaurung and he was run off the field by a bunch of dwarves, while two Balrogs had to team up to beat Fingon.
I’m also on team Balrog. I think if the fellowship met Smaug in Moria instead of Durin’s Bane, they would have found a way to avoid or escape him as apposed to having to fight. In my mind, the Balrog controls the situation in a way Smaug could not have.
Seeing all these First Age comments makes me quite desirous of seeing First Age stories in films. Oh how amazing it would be to see some of these moments on the big screen(properly done, mind). I really need to read the Silmarillion again.
@12 I’d rather it be done as a TV series so it’s not rushed, and keep away from The Hobbit movies’ excesses. Something with GoT’s production quality over a couple seasons would be incredible.
@@@@@ Biter: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Gandalf vs Smaug: You guys take care of it. I’ve got other things to do.
Gandalf vs Balrog: Fly you fools! This is a foe beyond any of you!
Gandalf believed the Balrog was more powerful, and who am I to argue?
The Free Peoples. The Free Peoples would win, because they’d be rid of whoever lost.
Durin’s Bane versus Anacalagon the Black would be a more interesting matchup, however.
Hmmm…I’d have to go with the Balrog on this one, especially given that Smaug is probably not anywhere near as powerful as a dragon like Glaurung. Balrog vs. Glaurung might be iffier…
Also, for the record, Legolas vs. Bolg was the dumbest, most inane thing ever put to celluloid (or digital film or whatever it is nowadays).
It really depends on how much “magical” power the Balrog can bring to physical combat.
Note that, as far as I can tell, Smaug is a LOT bigger than the Balrog. In any mostly physical contest that’s going to matter a LOT.
IIRC, all canon descriptions of Balrogs show them relying upon their inherent powers and abilities, while dragons tend to rely on cunning and manipulation before resorting to raw power. I would think that should give a (First Age) dragon a bit of an advantage over a Balrog.
Regarding Smaug in particular, though, his cunning might not make up for the general decline since Glaurung. I think the major determining factor in his smackdown with Durin’s Bane is how much the latter kept up with his katas and weightlifting and sorcery practice during the long millennia underneath Moria, or if he mostly sulked and allowed himself to go a bit soft.
Aren’t there also Balrogs riding dragons into battle in the Fall of Gondolin? Don’t have my copy of the Silmarillion handy to check.
But if I’m remembering that correctly, then I think there’s further support for Team Balrog–if anything, he might tame Smaug, ride him up over the Misty Mountains, roast Gwaihir and the Eagles, and then fly off into the sunset. Or Mordor. Game over.
There’s one question that keeps on comming to my mind while reading the comments… Many have said, apparently very surely, that Smaug is no Maia. This presents a little bit of a “lore” problem as far as I know. Tolkien stated that no one aside from Eru could create life, so Melkor had to corrupt other life forms or gain the support of sympathetic Maiar in order to build up his armies. If that’s true, and Dragons are Maiar, they shouldn’t be able to “breed” new dragons… wouldn’t that be “creating life”? Especially if what they create is a non-maia… I mean, they shouldn’t be able to generate a “new” Maia, since Valar and Maiar are direct offsprings or manifestations of Eru himself (so, he’s the only one who can generate them I guess). But, as said, they shouldn’t be able to create new “regular” life either, since that would void the whole “only Eru can create life” thing. If having Maiar interbreed was enough to create new life forms, Melkor would have had it much easier I suppose… and even Gandalf, given a little bit of sexy time, could bring forth a new species. On the other side, there are examples of Maiar and other species interbreeding successfully (at least Elf-Maia hybrids). I guess, if we want to go super picky, we could say that it happens because of the non-Maia part… which brings me full circle back to the dragons. What if the Dragons aren’t actually Maia at all, not even the old ones, but hybrids created from twisted lizards (orc-style) and Maiar? That would make more sense “biologically”, even though it wouldn’t resolve the “no-life-creation-allowed” connundrum. Then again, where the heck did Ents come from… I guess Tolkien would have liked to poish all this further (given how he was a big fan of patching his own work realted to worldbuilding).
Sorry if the post is sort of dissjointed… so many ideas. ;)
You lie, sir. AFT/RABT had this out many years ago, and the Pro-Wings Wing lost out, conclusively.
I will note that Gandalf, while thinking things through afterwards, seems to have thought that Smaug (although with an army at his back) might have destroyed Rivendell if he had still been alive during the War of the Ring.
“Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor.”
(Appendix A, at the end of the subsection that talks about Thorin’s quest.)
Don’t forget other Maiar-descended creatures, such as the Eagles, Shelob and her spawn… and Aragorn.
@23, exactly. Now put a Balrog on his back, and you the Battle of Pellenor Fields to shame. Can someone please write that counterfactual version of events? Elrond, Glorfindel, et. al. vs. army led by Balrog on Smaug?
I’m shocked at most of these comments! Balrogs in the First Age where indeed terrors to behold, but they were manageable. Dragons on the other hand, were neigh on unstoppable and armies unto themselves. I don’t think it as simple as some make it out to be. Sure, maybe Smaug doesn’t have the same fire in him as Ancalagon the Black, but he is still a force to be reckoned with.
god bless you for publishing these words on my birthday (!), ostorp
“think how much more effective Radagast would have been as an enormous, flaming horror reptile”
i have nothing to add to this energetic debate except the deep enjoyment of a spectator
@@@@@ 26 I’ll say that my main reason for being Team Balrog over Team Smaug is the Balrog is a direct holdover from the First Age, and Smaug is product of the Third Age. If we’re talking two First Age monsters head to head, it’s almost definitely dragon over Balrog. But that’s not the proposed fight.
We would seem to have an explicit statement from Legolas that Balrogs are more lethal than Dragons: “A Balrog is come. Of all elf-banes, the most deadly.”
The Balrog.
I’m not sure fighting fire with fire would work out well against a Balrog for Smaug, who as others have pointed was not the greatest of Dragons.
Balrogs were Maiar, created by Eru Iluvatar.
While Gandalf killed the Balrog in Moria, but also”died”, the Wizard was also a Maiar.
Dragons were created by Morgoth.
Glaurung one of the greatest of Wyrms was taken down by Turin, a Man.
That Gandalf didn’t go and fight Smaug that would be less about being scared and more about not taking direct action which was not really Gandalf’s way.
My cash is going on the Balrog though I don’t expect very favourable odds from the bookkeeper.
The article text says that Gandalf killed the Balrog. I don’t know if that is backed up in the text. Yes, both the Balrog and Gandalf fell into the pit. This resulted in Gandalf’s transition from Grey to White, but I’m not convinced the Balrog was destroyed (killed is such a nebulous term for such endings, e.g. Gandalf). The ending of the battle as described in Two Towers, Chp 5 is told by Gandalf. “I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.”
You say that the Balrog’s sword wouldn’t be of much use against Smaug, but consider this: Turin Turumbar killed Glaurung with a sword. To the belly.
Smaug’s underside is even more vulnerable than Glaurung’s, due to his chink AND the fact that we all acknowledge that Glaurung is simply the superior beast. I’m sure that a Balrog’s magic flaming sword, that was enough to kill multiple mighty elves (Ecthelion, for example), would be enough to pierce Smaug’s hide.
Loved the article, thank you. I do have one question: If Smaug´s mind control is so great as to be the decisive factor against the Balrog, how came the dragon did not use his mind control against the dwarves in the long scene where the bathed him in gold and drove him out of the lonely mountain? As far as I remember there where plenty of scenes with eye contact between Smaug and the dwarves.
What if they held a dance-off?
What if Smaug used sarcasm?
@9: Is there a prison in Valinor for the bad Maia?
Yes – the Halls of Mandos.
Also – are we sure that Smaug is not animated by a Maia? The description of Glaurung implies that the ability to speak is a function of the Maia presence, and Smaug certainly speaks. Repeatedly
I’m on the side of the Balrog for many of the same reasons as others have pointed out. Considering the Balrog was basically being held at bay by a Mithril vein meant that somebody thought he was a bit more a nuisance than a pesky old dragon.
Now, a much more interesting match up would be between Smaug versus Falkor. Two dragons enter, one dragon leaves!
@37: Falkor would just laugh (merrily, not in mockery) and circle around Smaug and never really engage. He’s a nice guy, maybe a little crazy. And if he had a little kid on hand in need of some luck, Smaug wouldn’t have a chance anyway.
I posted this article to The Tolkien Society, a group on Facebook. There were so many comments that we created a poll to see who would win the fight.
Current results:
Balrog: 271
Smaug: 40
Undecided: 77
Don’t forget that balrogs scared the hell out of even Ungoliant the Great (who had Melkor himself in her clutches) so that she let go of the Silmarils and ran for her life!
Frankly i dont think smaug is in any way analogous to ungoliant the Black so I’ll simply go with the fiery demon.
uhm…balrogs dont have wings..just fyi. but nice attempt otherwise.
I’d go with the Balrog of the First Age. Let’s remember that Eru himself, who created Morgoth, created the Balrog- then it sided with Morgoth. Meanwhile Morgoth, who is lesser than Eru, took part in creating dragons & Smaug is of the Third Age. I think there’s a power difference in that by itself. Also I would think the Balrog has much more magick accessibile to it than just a flaming sword, whip, and fire- he’s also bipedal with arms. Compared to a dragon who’s main arsenal is fire breathing. Let’s also take into account that strong magick is needed to defeat a Balrog (as his form is shadow & non-corporal) which is harder to come by than say a black spear that was available in the area a dragon may attack like a mine full of riches (which any well aiming man or woman could use). Defeating a Balrog requires a wizard etc of considerable strength to make the journey to them to fight them. And they were ready to fight Smaug while they were caught by surprise by the Balrog in Moria. So I’d definitely go with the Balrog.
I am happy to discover I am not the only LOR nerd to ponder this obscure yet important topic. I want to echo riley redgate. thanks for the awesome first article and many wise comments. I am very late to this debate and I never read the silmarillian but the movies very closely followed the books and gandalf stabbed that balrog hundreds of times before it died not to mention other forms of attack. smaug was clearly flesh and blood and felled by one thrust of an arrow. he wouldn’t have stood a chance against a creature which was obviously more than mere flesh and blood. As far as the discussion of balrogs being mentally subservient to dragons, I also think of it as bears being afraid of humans even though they can easily annihilate them if so motivated. thanks for all the great analysis
PS thank you all for showing me I must read the silmarillion ASAP
I believe this would be a cool fight. Both of them are immune to fire (which just happens to be the Dragon’s greatest weapon). For sure the dragons were better army troops (damn good air support) for Morgoth but we really can’t compare two such different being and say that one will always win without looking at the environment. I’m sure this fight would get different outcomes depending where it took place. Let’s look at two different cases:
1) Out in the open. Here a dragon will probably win since the environment is in his favor and he can fly around.
2) Out in the open but the balrog somehow “got hold of the dragon” so he can’t fly. I think the balrog would win here.
3) In tunnels (like Moria or Erebor) then I believe the balrog would be the winner here too.
Would be a nice fight though.
@32, You didn’t consider Turin’s sword (Anglachel) was made out of a meteor, and by Eol, and was harder and stronger than any other sword, save its brother sword of Maeglin.
I meant Maeglin owned it.
Also, in Tolkien’s work, magic isn’t as big of a thing as everyone plays it up to be. People also think that because Bard the Bowman was lucky, Smaug isn’t too horrible, and the dwarves could have taken him out. But I am just pointing this out, personally, I think the balrog would win.
It would clearly be an aerial combat.
If Balrogs don’t have wings, what are those things they serve with buffalo sauce at the Morgul Cafe?
“the movies very closely followed the books”
LOL no.
The problem with text about Balrogs is that their conception changed with time, just as the dragons did. Early on there were hundreds or thousands of them and a Man like Tuor killed several. But later they were definitely corrupted Maiar, of whom “there were no more than three, or perhaps seven”, and they only got killed by powerful elves or wizards who also died.
I will try to keep this short. Here are a few points.
1. Gandalf did not want Thorin’s company to enter the halls without him being there. So to say that he knew a bunch of mortals could take on a dragon is not the right statement. He knew full well the company was no match for the dragon and only theft of the “heart of the mountain” was company’s goal not taking on the dragon. That happened just as accidently as Gandalf taking on the Balrog in Moria.
2. The diminishing of power from age to age might be a fancy rather than a fact. A hobbit (product of a third age) is able to carry the “one ring” (the greatest calamity of the third age – left over from the second age) for miles and miles, to mountain of fire, without being corrupted by its evil. Gandalf and lady Galadriel would have nothing to do with that ring. To further this point a single average human when faced with the decision of protecting his kids is able to stare down a dragon and eventually kill it. This requires courage to be taken as a magical power just like any other that existed in any age of Middle Earth. “It is not for us to decide which age me live in but what to do with the time we are given on this earth.
3. Now coming back to the question/fight at hand. Fear/intimidation are weapons of both a dragon and the balrog. Once that fear factor is tamed a whole lot of other opportunities become available. Both Balrog and Smaug were put off their game that allowed other events to unfold. Balrog being taken back by the “wielder of the flame of Arnor/ servent of the sacred fire” and Smaug by a “unfamiliar smelling skinnier dwarf that can disapper on demand” and therefore able to steal any part of his treasure.
With all that being said Balrog was afraid of being seeing out in the open and could only dwell in shadows. He used trolls and goblin kind to slow capture Moria. Where as Smaug was roaming the world taking on armies of multiple kingdoms at a time. Brooding on all that treasure made the dragon weak – “dragon sickness”. Thus it is not really “Smaug the terrible” that the dwarfs of Thorin’s company are facing it is a scared diminished version of it self trying to remind itself that “I am fire, I am death”. The Smaug that singlehandedly dispatched the outer defenses of the greatest kingdom on middle earth, when they were specifically designed to encounter a dragon attack and also expel the near “god king” and his fully equipped dwarven army in a single afternoon was not the same scared creature that fled from the company of 14 dwarfs and a halfling. State of mind has everything to do with this battle/fight.
My answer on who will win depends on all of these factors and how this fight/encounter actually happens.
If this this a hyped event with both opponents training and studying film on their opponent’s strengths and weaknesses, like a heavyweight boxing match or the Thor/Hulk Ragnarok duel, then I think the dragon wins. It is a far more thinking, planning and able to device a game plan type of creature than a Balrog is.
On the other hand if a chance encounter happens in the depths of some unnamed dungeon where our camera crew could not reach and the fight only happens in the figment of our imagination then the Balrog is a very powerful foe to suddenly encounter and defeat just on a whim.
So keeping in theme from proverbs from two separate languages, “if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound” or as us Urdu speaking folks say “If a peacock dances in the jungle, then who saw it”. So I ask you “if a Balrog defeats the Smaug in some deep dungeon and no one is there to see it or if the Smaug devices a way to defeat the Balrog in an arena with the whole forth age of middle earth looking on, what is more epic?
All I know is that Legolas nearly pooped himself when he saw the balrog…
Team Balrog always focuses on the 1st Age vs. Third Age argument without even relying on physics. WHAT IF SMAUG Like a Significantly Bigger BOXER with a longer reach – Chooses to fight VERY far from the Balrog.. As in “AIR STRIKE” Level far and just rains down hell on the Balrog without giving the BALROG a chance to hit-back?! What chane does hte Balrog have if he can’t even HIT his opponent?!
Team Balrog always focuses on the 1st Age vs. Third Age argument without even relying on physics. WHAT IF SMAUG Like a Significantly Bigger BOXER with a longer reach – Chooses to fight VERY far from the Balrog.. As in “AIR STRIKE” Level far and just rains down hell on the Balrog without giving the BALROG a chance to hit-back?! What chance does the Balrog have if he can’t even HIT his opponent?! He is also NOT as Smart as Smaug. HE CAN”T SUDDENLY use Bow and arrows.
Balrog for the win. He has smaller wings and is more maneuverable and would have the advantage in an air battle.
Gandalf did not want Thorin’s company to enter the halls without him being there. So to say that he knew a bunch of mortals could take on a dragon is not the right statement. He knew full well the company was no match for the dragon and only theft of the “heart of the mountain” was company’s goal not taking on the dragon.
Couple of points on this:
First, Gandalf’s intention was definitely for the dwarves to fight and kill Smaug. He explains as much in (I think) “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” – he knew that there was war coming between Mordor and the West, and taking Smaug off the board in advance would be a very useful shaping operation. And this is indeed how it turned out – the Battle of Dale distracted a large Easterling army. If Smaug had still been around, the Dalemen would have been fully occupied running away from him and the Easterlings would have been at the Pelennor instead. We don’t know quite how he thought the dwarves would do it, but we know he thought they could.
Second, Gandalf’s role isn’t to fight these things alone – he’s supposed to train, advise and support the locals so that they can do it themselves. He’s TE Lawrence, not James Bond.
So keeping in theme from proverbs from two separate languages, “if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound” or as us Urdu speaking folks say “If a peacock dances in the jungle, then who saw it”. So I ask you “if a Balrog defeats the Smaug in some deep dungeon and no one is there to see it or if the Smaug devices a way to defeat the Balrog in an arena with the whole forth age of middle earth looking on, what is more epic?
1) Good proverb.
2) I think this argument is the clincher: which would be the more epic answer? This line of reasoning has precedent – it allowed us to discard the hypothesis that T. rex might have been a scavenger rather than a predator, by simply observing that it would be much cooler for them to have been predators.
Reference:
If a Balrog fought Smaug in the open air, it would be less likely to win than if they fought in a confined underground space. I think we can all agree on this.
And, as m’learned friend points out, a battle in the open air would be way more epic.
Therefore, Smaug would win.
@Ajay,
This argument presupposes that we accept the alatophobic worldview that presumes that Balrog wings are vestigial. If the Balrog is in fact equipped with functional wings its smaller size and increased mobility might actually give it an advantage in an aerial battle.
If the Balrog is in fact equipped with functional wings its smaller size and increased mobility might actually give it an advantage in an aerial battle.
Strong disagree here. Smaug has speed, and ranged weapons (breathing fire). That beats manoeuverability in a dogfight, just as it doesn’t matter what your turning circle is if you’re flying a Phantom and the other guy’s in a Sopwith Camel. The Balrog can flutter around as much as it likes, but all Smaug has to do is hit it with one classic boom-and-zoom diving attack after another. And Smaug is bigger; a lot bigger. That means he can take more damage than the Balrog can (golden-BB arrows aside).
But we’re missing the point here that the battle would be happening in Middle Earth. And in Middle Earth evil is defeated by its own weaknesses. That’s a law of nature, all the way from petty Orc squabbling over loot, right up to the pride-blind Saruman and Sauron.
Therefore, the logical conclusion is that, in a fight between Smaug (evil) and a Balrog (evil), the result would be a stalemate – they would kill each other, thus weakening the forces of evil. Debating how this would happen is secondary. It would happen because the nature of the universe demands that it would happen. Gandalf tells the Witch-King that he will not enter Minas Tirith, and he is simply expressing this truth; it’s enforced by the sudden arrival of the forces of Rohan, as it happens, but if they hadn’t turned up something else would have done the trick.
How certain are we that Smaug’s dragonfire would particularly bother Durin’s Bane? Now, it doesn’t seem to be composed entirely of fire, since there was a “thing of slime,” left after it’s flames were extinguished (although also shapeshifting may be a possibility here) but it seems likely that, what with being composed partly of, or just constantly on, fire, Durin’s Bane might have some resistance. Then again, dragonfire is especially hot, though Smaug’s breath likely pales besides that of the great dragons of the First Age.
If Smaug’s fire is largely or entirely ineffective against the Balrog, then he has to close to fight- or at least get close enough to use his wings, a hurricane, to knock the Balrog off of a ledge.
“One look into Smaug’s eyes and the Balrog would be under his spell”
I never thought that this epic battle would lead to romance…