Welcome to the Malazan Re-read of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover Chapters 12 and 13 of Gardens of the Moon (GotM). Other chapters are here.
A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing, so while the summary of events may be free of spoilers, the commentary and reader comments most definitely will not be. To put it another way: Major Spoilers Next Eight Months.
Another fair warning! Grab a cup of tea before you start reading—these posts are not the shortest!
CHAPTER TWELVE
SCENE 1
Kruppe reads in Mammot’s study about the ancient calling down of a god, its crippling, and its chaining, at which was present many Ascendants, including five black dragons and one red dragon. Baruk magically contacts Mammot and sets him a task as well as requests through him that Kruppe comes to meet. Kruppe leaves, thinking he needs to find out who was following him earlier (Sorry).
SCENE 2
Crone tells Baruk of her encounter with Hairlock on the Rhivi Plain and that Hairlock is seeking something. Baruk tells her of the Jaghut Tyrant buried in the hills and that his assumption is the Malazan Empire is seeking that power, but he isn’t willing to tell Rake exactly where the Jaghut is buried.
SCENE 3
In Shadowrealm, Quick Ben is escorted by Hounds of Shadow to Shadowthrone. He tells Shadowthrone that he was once an acolyte and knows he is under constant threat of assassination for leaving. He makes a deal to deliver to Shadowthrone Hairlock (who hurt the Shadowhound Gear) in exchange for having the assassination order lifted. At the end, Shadowthrone recognizes who Quick Ben is but too late.
SCENE 4
Kruppe conveys to Baruk a message from the Eel to “look to the streets to find those you seek.” Baruk tasks Kruppe to gather Murillio, Rallick, Coll, and Crokus to spy on any activity in the Gadrobi Hills (where the barrow lies).
SCENE 5
Quick Ben returns to Darujhistan and tells Kalam he’s succeeded in his mission to Shadowthrone (we learn Quick Ben was a “high priest” of Shadow). Sorry arrives to tell them she’s found them an assassin (Rallick) at the Phoenix Inn and that she’ll be doing another assignment from Whiskeyjack. Quick Ben and Kalam agree Sorry is “the one we thought her to be.”
SCENE 6
At the Inn, Rallick notes Kalam’s entry and goes to tell Ocelot, head of the local assassin guild. Ocelot tells him to lead Kalam to a warehouse as a trap.
SCENE 7
Crokus begins to break into the D’Arle home to replace what he’d stolen from Challice.
Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Twelve
I’m cheating here, but from what I’ve seen in comments and spoilers for Gardens of the Moon I know that Apsalar is related to Sorry. I’m not sure if the Apsalar mentioned in the little poem at the start of Chapter Twelve is the self-same, or is a whole different character. Drisbin is the author—yet another new name!
The passage that Kruppe opens this chapter by reading sounds like it is tremendously important considering it mentions a God who is Crippled, and the last Malazan Book is going to be called The Crippled God:
…and in the Calling Down to earth the God was Crippled, and so Chained in its place. In the Calling Down many lands were sundered by the God’s Fists, and things were born and things were released. Chained and Crippled was this God…
The same passage mentions the five black dragons of the Tiste Andii, and a red dragon called Silanah. I’m sure it is hinted that Coll is being ridden by someone who spoke through his mouth and used him to bring up the dragons—is this the case?
I just want to pull out the name of the book Kruppe was reading just in case it becomes pertinent at a later stage: Alladart’s Realm Compendium.
I also love the fact that Kruppe bemoans the long-winded writing in the book when he is just as bad! These lovely touches of humour make Gardens of the Moon incredibly entertaining as well as deep and challenging.
“Such long-lipped dribbles common to those ancient scholars are a curse Kruppe is thankful to find extinct in our time.”
Who is Kruppe’s grandmother? I imagine she might be quite important based on Kruppe’s skill with magic!
What interests me is that even in the slower passages where two characters are just having a chat, a fair amount of information can be conveyed by Erikson. Here we have Mammot and Kruppe talking about Crokus, and the differences they have noticed in the young lad. There is also a very interesting line about Rallick Nom where Kruppe muses:
“Yet is it blood that travels his veins?”
Nice to see another use of the warrens as well—as a sort of magical telephone line to communicate. Also, I am wondering if Mammot has any magical ability, or if warrens can be used to communicate with non-magical people. I guess that Paran travelled by warren, so it is clear that they are useable by those without power.
Baruk is very concerned about Anomander Rake and his intentions, despite their alliance. He also makes a reasoned judgement about the different factions within the Malazan Empire who are trying to seek out the Jaghut Tyrant. Strikes me that this is a very intelligent man—and he’d have to be, what with coming to pre-eminence in the underworld of Darujhistan. Yet he doesn’t know that Kruppe is the Eel, which suggests Kruppe is far cleverer!
There are also hints that the alliance between Baruk and Rake is incredibly fragile:
“Inform your lord that the present dissatisfaction exists with us as much as it does with him.”
Another fantastically cinematic scene in the realm of Shadowthrone as the Hounds come to guide Quick Ben to Shadowkeep. You can definitely see the movie-like qualities of this book.
Oho! “I was once an acolyte within your temple, Lord,” says Quick Ben to Shadowthrone. How very intriguing! Why did he leave the Paths of Shadow?
And how wonderful to finally see Shadowthrone for an extended period of time—his giggling and rather whimsical utterings do tend to bring to mind insanity from the god. Quick Ben strikes a deal with the devil: he wants the threat of assassination lifted from him in exchange for delivering over Hairlock. And I have to say that I would not want to deal with Shadowthrone:
“Given that you will seek to betray me at every opportunity, given that you’ll hunt for the weakness in my plan, given all this, I would have your word that you will complete your part of the deal if all else fails you, Lord.”
And oooh! Quick Ben is revealed to also have the name Delat—a shapeshifter.
Kruppe hides the fact that he knows there is a Malazan presence in Darujhistan to Baruk, especially the fact that they have already met and marked the Coin Bearer whom they are all sworn to protect.
“While he is Oponn’s tool, he also is the means by which another Ascendant can reach Oponn,” says Baruk, indicating that Crokus would be in danger from those who seek to put an end to Oponn.
I like the cross purposes at which Kruppe and Baruk end up, when talking about a work party digging *giggles*:
Kruppe started. “As in…road repairs?”
He must be ever so worried that Baruk has also discovered the Bridgeburners!
Finally Quick Ben has it entirely confirmed that Sorry is an agent of Shadow, since she was able to sense his link to the Shadow Realm. Both Kalam and Quick Ben are aware that Sorry—as a pawn of the Rope—can kill them without a moment’s thought . This is incredibly scary when you consider that they are an assassin and a mage of great note, respectively.
I could do with some help regarding the scene with Ocelot and Rallick—does Ocelot want to make a deal with the assassin Rallick has found (obviously Kalam), or does he want to remove him? And who is Vorcan—someone I have met already that I’ve now forgotten? Or someone new?
Has anyone else got a sense of dread about Crokus heading into the D’Arle mansion to put the jewels back?
Bill’s Reaction to Chapter Twelve:
You’re right, the name in the title of the poem is connected to Sorry, and I don’t think it’s giving too much away to say that Apsalar is the Mistress of Thieves, thus the “Thieves’ Road” in line two. There will be a connection later, but one link now is the idea of being sung “in two”: Sorry, as we know, is split between her old self and her Dancer/Cotillion/Rope self. I think one could also make a connection to Crokus here as he’s obviously a thief but also one who is somewhat split in two (between wanting to be a thief and choosing another life, something his friends desire for him), one for whom the Thieves’ Road may be a “misstep.”
Kruppe’s book reading scene is a great example of a subtle info dump, as we’ve got Kruppe seemingly looking for information on Moon’s Spawn and those five dragons Coll mentioned earlier. But that’s actually a red herring as the truly important information (as you guessed Amanda) is on the Chained God, whose actions and responses to those actions will drive most of the plot in the series (that little bit on Dessembrae is also of some note). And you’re right, you have to love Kruppe bemoaning the tome’s lack of brevity, and Mammot’s choking response.
The scene with Quick Ben and Shadowthrone obviously sets up a plot point dealing with a response for when Hairlock turns on Quick and the others, as he’s clearly moving toward doing. But there will be ripples from this deal far beyond expectations of either party. That said, perhaps even more interesting is the information we get re: Quick Ben—that he was once an acolyte in a Shadow temple and that Shadowthrone recognizes him at the end. A few pages later, we learn he was in fact a high priest of Shadow who burned his robes and abandoned the temple. The story of Quick Ben—who or what he is, what his powers are—will be one of the longest running and, for me, most satisfying/intriguing mysteries throughout the series. My advice to you Amanda is to file away all the snippets we get on his past and present and see what greater picture might emerge.
Baruk is, as you say, highly intelligent. But we’ll get a more interesting bit about him in just the next chapter.
I admit to a little confusion on Kruppe lying to Baruk about the Malazans. He doesn’t tell him they’re there, but then tells Baruk to “look to the streets” to find them (then of course slips and mentions “road repairs” a little later). I’m wondering if this is to
a) keep distance between himself and what he knows as far as Baruk is concerned (though Baruk is clearly aware that Kruppe knows a lot),
b) a means to build up the Eel (from whom the info supposedly comes), or c) something much more obvious I’m missing (anyone?)
We haven’t met Vorcan personally but she was mentioned earlier as the master of the Assassin’s Guild in the city. My reading of the meeting scene goes like this: Ocelot and the Guild believe the Empire is killing them off, and so from their viewpoint this is purely an ambush scene. Kalam and Quick don’t know the Guild’s been killed off (by the Tiste Andii of Rake), so they think this is an ambush to ask questions (rather than actually kill Kalam) via which they’ll make a deal with the Guild to take out the power structure in the city (usual Empire method).
CHAPTER THIRTEEN
SCENE 1
Kalam and Quick Ben (invisible) follow Rallick to the warehouse, though both have a bad feeling about it.
SCENE 2
Rallick tells Ocelot he’s brought Rallick and Ocelot prepares his assassins’ ambush.
SCENE 3
A demon belonging to Baruk is observing the rooftops where Kalam and Quick Ben are but is suddenly attacked, barely escaping as 12 assassins fall from the sky and begin killing Ocelot’s group of assassins.
SCENE 4
Kalam and Quick Ben are attacked.
SCENE 5
Rallick kills one of the mysterious assassins, whose body disappears. He and Ocelot head out.
SCENE 6
Sorry watches Crokus at the D’Arle estate while musing over all the “potential players” she’d already eliminated: Paran, a Claw Leader in Pale, others. She knows Crokus should die but finds herself at war over that. She feels sorcery from the assassin attack across the city.
SCENE 7
Crokus and Challice speak as he returns the loot and he tells her he will be in her line of suitors to be formally introduced. As he leaves with the alarm sounding, he sees Sorry watching him.
SCENE 8
Kalam and Quick Ben continue their fight. Quick Ben uses one of Tayschrenn’s imperial demons (Pearl) to cover their escape. When Quick Ben tells Pearl his true name (Ben Adaephon Delat), the demon says he’s supposed to be dead, marked as killed by the Empire. Rake arrives and the demon turns to fight, knowing he will be killed.
SCENE 9
Rallick walks the streets thinking of his (to him) inevitable future: becoming an assassin Guild Master and losing his sense of outrage at injustice. He thinks his plan to get revenge on those who hurt Coll will be his last humane act. He meets Crokus and tells him to tell his uncle that the guild’s best have been killed, that there is a Claw in the city, as well as someone from the sky killing everyone. He also tells him to quit stealing. Crokus leaves and Murillio arrives to tell Rallick of Baruk’s task. Rallick says he can’t go. They enter the Phoenix Inn.
SCENE 10
The Tiste Andii assassins’ leader, Serrat, reports to Rake of their injuries and deaths to a Claw accompanied by a High Mage and of one fallen to Rallick. Rake is happy to hear the Claw and Guild were about to fight each other.
SCENE 11
Quick Ben brings Kalam to the squad to be healed by Mallet. He tells Whiskeyjack, Fiddler, Hedge, etc. of the attack. They realize Rake was taking out the Guild so the Empire couldn’t use it.
SCENE 12
Sorry heard the conversation between Rallick and Murillio. She decides to kill Crokus outside the city once she discovers their mission. She also decides she’ll have to deal with the threat of Quick Ben and Kalam.
SCENE 13
Rake arrives at Baruk’s and tells him he’d been killing the local assassins (and hopes to kill the Guild Leader Vorcan) so the Empire wouldn’t contract them to kill Darujhistan’s leaders. Baruk tells Rake this is a bad idea as they keep the city in balance and yells at Rake for not consulting. When Rake expresses surprise at his temerity (“I’m unused to being addressed as an equal”), Baruk tells him “there are many paths to Ascendancy, some more subtle than others.” He informs Rake that Vorcan is a High Mage. Rake apologizes for not consulting.
SCENE 14
In Kruppe’s dreamscape, K’rul tells him Tattersail is growing swiftly (greatly accelerated growth). He also tells him of Rake’s sword Dragnipur, “forged in darkness, it chains souls to the world that existed before the coming of light” and that Rake is the Knight of High House Darkness and in league with Baruk and the Cabal of mages—Darujhistan’s true leaders. He warns Kruppe to avoid the Imass or Jaghut and protect the Coin Bearer.
Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Thirteen:
Okay, spiders in this next poem—spiders are always to do with sitting at the centre of a web and waiting for prey to stumble into them. Secrecy and pulling strings, that sort of thing. So who is the spider referred to by Blind Gallan?
Kalam and Quick Ben are setting themselves up to spring the ambush of Rallick Nom. Kalam used to be a Claw and Quick Ben a priest of Shadow—these two have come a long way since those days, and I suspect their backstory would be fairly monumental. As well as their easy camaraderie, this section showcases the fact that they work slickly together—including using “two old friends,” spells from Quick Ben that Kalam is clearly familiar with. Their jadedness with the Empire and desire to get clear—and their loyalty towards the captain (it seems as though all the time Whiskeyjack stays tied to the Empire, they will too) comes across very strongly.
I quite like the fact that we, as the audience, are aware of the fact that this is all about to go pretty wrong for Quick Ben and Kalam—and that Quick Ben openly states, “Kal, do you smell something bad about this?” Made me chortle. Again, it felt like the sort of scene you would see in a movie.
The Assassins’ Guild have access to “spotters,” to pick up any magic use, and apparently Rallick doesn’t use something provided him by Ocelot. I imagine that this might be both a signpost for events ahead and magical artefacts used by other assassins.
The demon is summoned by Baruk, I recall? And ooh, we get to see more of the Tiste Andii assassins now—sounds like they are out to destroy Ocelot’s team. Does this mean that they are aware of Quick Ben and Kalam? Are they protecting them? Or is their presence just incidental?
…And there was a very quick answer to that, as Kalam is targeted by one of the floating assassins! One thing that immediately struck me during this sharp little encounter is that Kalam is aware his opponent is female, but does not hold back at all. She is shown to be just as good as him at hand to hand, and they have an equal-ish skirmish. This again is a fantastic example of women being written in a strong and realistic manner by Erikson.
Hmm, not sure whether Ocelot is a mage or just utilising items of power. I am loving these encounters in the dark—they have been written so well, that you can imagine the terror of suddenly experiencing being shot at, and mysterious cloaked assassins appearing from nowhere.
Oh interesting—it sounds as though Sorry is in the game purely to neutralise the Oponn players; this section mentions the fact that she killed Paran and the un-named garrotted Claw Leader in Pale.
The Coin Bearer was the last of Oponn’s influence, and the god’s most vital player in the game.
It’s interesting that Sorry’s desire to follow Crokus and observe him might not be the will of Shadowthrone—rather, this might be the influence of the Seer who also inhabits her mind. As has been mentioned by Bill and others, it is both heartbreaking and heartening to realise that Shadowthrone doesn’t have complete power over this young girl. Having said that she kills a guard “effortlessly” while following Crokus—got to wonder if this is a moment of chance that will create problems later?
Sorry stiffened. Sorcery had burgeoned in another part of Darujhistan, and its flavour was known to her.
Ha, this could be one of many people! Quick Ben, the Tiste Andii, the mages/artefacts of the Daru assassins, Kruppe, Baruk…. And is the sorcery known to Sorry, or is it known to the power that rides her?
What an odd way to describe the regular breathing of a young girl: “like the breath of a dragon.” I have to say, this is not the first way of describing breathing to come to mind, so this has to be deliberate on Erikson’s part.
It is a sweet exchange here between Crokus and Challice (yep, now I get that reference from a previous poem—thanks Bill). I do hope that we don’t have too much of the “boys and girls just don’t understand each other” routine. It strikes me from Challice’s behaviour and actions that she is rather thrilled and taken by Crokus and is delighted by his announcement to court her properly, whereas Crokus just sees her laughing at him and reads into that that Challice is displeased with him. I mean, I think that is what is happening here—or maybe it is I that doesn’t understand romance!
And how chilling would that be? To have all your dreams punctured, to almost be caught by a guard and then to top it off you see outside the window a person who you know has recently murdered someone. That would give me nightmares!
Wow, wow, wow, wow—I’m just going to go all fangirl for a moment. Can I just say that I am whipping through this chapter, and barely being able to pause to make my comments? Usually I read it so slowly, savouring every word and trying to catch all the little nuances. But here I am gobbling the words—no doubt missing loads—and having an absolute ball. These are simply amazing action sequences!
More little tidbits about Quick Ben as well: he is aware that he is facing off against Tiste Andii, he has probably stolen a demon from Tayschrenn, his name (or one of them) is Ben Adaephon Delat, he is supposed to be dead (“Your name is so marked on the scrolls of those High Mages who fell to the Empire in Seven Cities”), and he senses the extreme power of what must be Anomander Rake before he sends Pearl, the Korvalah demon, to its death. Is it just me, or does it make it worse knowing that someone will die when they’re given a name?
I feel really sorry for Rallick! His sense of despair and fatalistic acceptance of a life he didn’t originally seek from himself bleeds from the page. Makes me wonder how he reached this point, where he believes that his last act of humanity is to complete the scheme he and Murillio are working on. And this scheme is hinted at:
“If all went as planned, Lady Simtal and those men who’d conspired with her in the betrayal of her husband, Lord Coll, would die. Could that right the wrong, could it even the scales of retribution? No, but it might return to a man his life and his hope.”
Tiny bit confused here—do we know whether Lord Coll is alive or dead? Betrayal indicates he’s been killed, but returning to a man his life and hope indicates he is alive. Not sure here. Oh, hang on! Is this the same Coll who spoke about the five black dragons from a couple of chapters ago?
You also get a sense from Rallick that he is a man of great honour—he sees betrayal as the greatest of crimes (which is why he appears to be working on this scheme of revenge). He also says to Crokus:
“Stop feeding off the city’s lifeblood, lad. There’s no hero’s role in sucking others dry”
I think that Rallick wants to be the hero.
In the scene with Anomander Rake we see the ignominious end to poor Pearl—strange I am thinking “poor” about a demon who can supposedly level cities. Doesn’t that give a big indication of just how powerful the Tiste Andii are? Also amused that, with all the Daru assassins on the rooftops—meant to be trained killers, after all—it is Kalam who downs the majority of the Tiste Andii assassins. That also shows us Kalam’s capabilities. I am wondering why Anomander Rake is so hot to have the Guild in Darujhistan shut down… [Bill’s interjection: To prevent the Empire from employing the Guild to take out the power structure for the Empire, as has been the usual state of play for the Empire.]
Ha, when Erikson talks about how the introduction of Moranth alchemy changed the role of the Bridgeburner sappers, this is as close to an infodump as I have seen from the man so far!
Whiskeyjack’s reverie about his armour and the way he can now feel every cut and wound when he wakes in the morning; the description of how his sword has weathered since he first picked it up—all of this designed to show us that Whiskeyjack is feeling old and tired. The comparison to his mind-set when he was a young soldier is a harsh reminder of how far he has come, and what he has endured to get there.
Again we see an indication of just how powerful Pearl is—or was, when the Empire soldiers go still when they realise that it has been unleashed by Quick Ben. And then a quick mention of the magic Quick Ben and Kalam had faced:
The sorcery had that flavour. Old, dark and icy cold. Kurald Galain.
Whiskeyjack shows a grudging respect for Rake:
“Worse, the Moon’s lord is a move ahead of us. He reckoned we’d try to contact the Guild, so what does he do?”
“Takes out the Guild,” Kalam said. “How’s that for arrogance?”
“Whatever arrogance that lord has,” Whiskeyjack said, grimacing, “he’s earned it. I’ll give him that.”
There is mention that the Korvalah demon suffered “a death in truth”—there is little enough of that going on so far! And it shows something of what Rake’s sword can achieve, backed up by the quote which Bill also picks out about absolute darkness, creaking wheels and clanking chains.
Couple of points (there are more that I would have pulled out but I don’t want to trample all over the points Bill is about to raise): Rake appears to be involved in a private war with Laseen, Vorcan is a High Mage, and Baruk deals with Rake as an equal.
Finally—Kruppe is ending up very much between a rock and a hard place, what with the Knight of High House Darkness being a lodestone to power, wielding a sword that has never yet been withstood and the warning about “Elder magic brews anew, after so long. It is Tellann—of the Imass—but what it touches is Omtose Phellack—Jaghut Elder magic.” This is officially now a pageturner!
Bill’s Reaction to Chapter Thirteen:
In this chapter I like how the structure of multiple narrators adds to the suspense as we watch a frantic battle between the Tiste Andii assassins and Quick Ben/Kalam and Rallick. Erikson moves us between fight scenes but doesn’t resolve them before moving on. So we see the assassins land near Rallick then cut to Kalam’s and Quick Ben. We see Kalam fight off two assassins but leave before we learn what happened to Quick Ben. We watch Rallick and Ocelot attempt to escape after fighting off two assassins, but leave before knowing if they make it or not, cutting all the way across town to Crokus and Sorry. Lots of keep the reader guessing scenes here.
I’m in total agreement with you on Pearl, Amanda. This scene shows us yet again Erikson’s unwillingness to let a death passed unnamed and unmarked. Easy enough to have Quick Ben drop the vial, order the demon to fight and leave. Instead, we learn the demon’s name, see he has a sense of compassion (“they accept my challenge, should I pity them?”), a sense of mortality (“you send me to my death”). We’ve also been set up for the horror of what Pearl faces by the prior conversation between Rake and Baruk about how death is better than being killed by Rake’s sword, and thus Pearl’s “pity me” strikes with more power.
Rallick’s movement toward the Phoenix Inn is one of those seemingly unnecessary scenes/details some complain about—after all, Erikson could simply cover his running into Crokus on his way to the Inn in a sentence or two. Instead, Erikson uses the need to get him to the Phoenix Inn (and into run-ins with Crokus and Murillio) to do a few more things. One is to reemphasize the Jaghut’s tomb lying outside the city. Another is to remind us of the gas shafts and tunnels underlying the city. ( The next scene begins with the Grayfaces shutting off the valves: twice in two pages that the gas has been mentioned—given greater emphasis by prominent placement at beginnings of scenes. Time to start paying attention!) Yet another point to Rallick’s slow movement is to keep the idea of Vorcan, Master of Assassins, fresh in our heads. And finally, having him physically appear a distance away from the Inn gives him time to muse on all of that and his own internal issues—his resignation to a life less human (a theme we’ve seen already with both Whiskeyjack and Sorry) as an assassin and the idea that the plan to help Coll is his last bit of humanity. And his views on betrayal—a topic that will come up again and again.
There’s another nice structural moment in the scenes with squads reporting to their leaders: Serrat’s Tiste Andii assassin’s reporting to Rake and Quick Ben/Kalam reporting to Whiskeyjack, both of them wondering just what the other ran into out there—I always like those sort of echoes or parallels in books. This one (about to date myself here) reminded me of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid when they keep looking back at their pursuers and ask “who are these guys?”
The scene with Rake and Baruk offers up a few interesting tidbits along with clearing up what happened to Pearl. One of the more intriguing is the hint that Baruk might be an ascendant himself (“there are many paths to Asecendancy, some more subtle than others”), something we’ve just been set up for as his demon muses on how the demon is powerful but not as powerful as his master Baruk. We can also see the concrete result of what Brood had complained of to Crone, that Rake’s distance (both literal and figurative) from day to day existence on the ground means he can overlook the repercussions of his actions, in this case, the ripple effect of killing off the Assassin’s Guild. We also see Rake is a big enough man to admit when he is shown to be in the wrong.
That’s a good pickup on Whiskeyjack’s respect for Rake; we’ll see a lot more of those two and this section starts to set us up for what’s to come.
Finally, we also get more tantalizing visions associated with Dragnipur:
a world of absolute darkness . . . the creak of wooden wheels, the clank of chains, the groans of a thousand imprisoned souls
A small expansion of what Baruk sensed the last time he saw Rake’s sword:
from which came . . . a faint groaning sound.
Baruk’s simile in this scene, though he uses it in a wholly different context—“like any burdened wagon . . .”— is particularly appropriate, as we learn in the closing scene when K’rul gives Kruppe more detailed information on the sword. That sword is one of Erikson’s greatest creations in this series, I think. Such a cliche on the surface, at first, and yet once we get into it more (so to speak), so much more…
We also get another connection between Rake and dragons:
In Kruppe’s mind his Deck of Dragons rose. He saw the image of half man, half dragon—the Knight of High House Darkness. The man held aloft a black sword trailing smoky chains.
(Chains, by the way, is another one of those words we’ll see ad infinitum throughout the series).
Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.
Amanda Rutter contributes reviews and a regular World Wide Wednesday post to fantasyliterature.com, as well as reviews for her own site floortoceilingbooks.com (covering more genres than just speculative), Vector Reviews and Hub magazine.
@Amanda
I’ll echo Bill’s advice that gathering tidbits on Quick Ben is both useful and interesting.
The scene where ShadowThrone Yells out, “It is you! Delat! You shape-shifting bastard!” is very interesting. It shows us that ST is very, very tricky–but Quick is just as tricky. Also, ST referring to QB as shape-shifting is interesting in and of itself. For instance, ST doesn’t recognize QB even though QB was a High Priest of Shadow.
This re-read is by far my favorite bit on this site. I look forward to it every week, because I didn’t catch half of these references when I read GotM over a year ago! Thanks for your efforts, Bill and Amanda, and keep up the good work!
shalter @1
– The scene where ShadowThrone Yells out, “It is you! Delat! You shape-shifting bastard!” is very interesting. –
And here a spoilerish question to the crowd:
Over time, we have seen QB a LOT of things, but did he ever actually shapeshift, at least in the run of this cycle ? One of the big mysteries sorrounding this character (unless I missed something)
@Amanda
*Wow, wow, wow, wow—I’m just going to go all fangirl for a moment. Can I just say that I am whipping through this chapter, and barely being able to pause to make my comments? Usually I read it so slowly, savouring every word and trying to catch all the little nuances. But here I am gobbling the words—no doubt missing loads—and having an absolute ball.*
_______________________
…thus revealing the big secret why this cycle needs multiple rereads, each time guaranteeing new discoveries….*g*
What’s great about Erikson are chapters like this. When I first read GotM I was about to give up due to the incredibly dense and confusing references. I don’t want to work that hard to read a book. Then a great action scene and really well-drawn characters sucks you back in.
As an aside, I’ll consider the martial prowess of the women characters in most current sci-fi and fantasy as “realistic” when a woman successfully competes in the UFC. There is a reason that no historical pre-gunpowder army included women (and it is not just cultural). I know this is going to start a comment-war, but it is just biology.
@3 Taitastigon
I’m nearly 100% positive that QB has never shape-shifted throughout the series. If he has, it’s been off-screen and never alluded to.
Yes, we’ve never actually seen QB shape shift.
randon @5
– As an aside, I’ll consider the martial prowess of the women characters in most current sci-fi and fantasy as “realistic” when a woman successfully competes in the UFC. There is a reason that no historical pre-gunpowder army included women (and it is not just cultural). I know this is going to start a comment-war, but it is just biology –
______________________________
Let´s just say that it is refreshing to see that SE gives women a highly *egalitarian* position to resolve and impact on the diverse events in this world. Re the realism of the physical prowess part – *shrug-don´t-bother-about-it-that-much*…
The way Erikson introduces the most important concepts and events, so casually in what appears to be a throwaway reference or conversation, is at once the most challenging and also the most rewarding of his writing. Take, for example, the so casual reference to the Crippled God, in a wordy tome being read by Kruppe, and in a language so archaic and repetitious one’s eyes simply glaze over. Yet, the Crippled God turns out to be one of the principal players in the entire series, the prime mover behind at least half the events that take place, and he is introduced so casually most readers will likely miss it! For me, so many things in GotM only started to make sense in MoI, and the Crippled God is one of them.
Also, note that QB and Kalam do really well against 12 Tiste Andii. And when Serrat is reporting to Rake she mentions that they fought a Claw (Kalam) and a High Mage (QB). QB’s nominal rank is Squad Mage, but by this point it should be pretty clear that no one in the BridgeBurner squad is quite what their current ranks make them out to be.
Another fun (and useful) thing to note is the “card game” going on between Hedge and Fiddler. We’ll see that the card games of the BridgeBurners have interesting rules–and sometimes interesting effects.
>It strikes me from Challice’s behaviour and actions that she is rather thrilled and taken by Crokus and is delighted by his announcement to court her properly, whereas Crokus just sees her laughing at him and reads into that that Challice is displeased with him. I mean, I think that is what is happening here—or maybe it is I that doesn’t understand romance!
I didn’t take it that way. Possibly I’m also influenced by her actions later on in the book, but it really felt to me like “highborn laughing at lowborn’s presumption”.
Anyone else have thoughts?
As far as Quick Ben’s possible shapeshifting abilities, the only other High Priest of Shadow we’ve seen in the series (Iskataral Pust) is, IIRC. So maybe it’s something all of Shadowthrone’s followers learn.
Shadowthrone’s familiarity with QB threw me when I read it. We get a little more backstory on QB in MoI, and it’s obvious that when he joined the BBs, Emperor Kellanved was still around. Meaning Kellanved-as-Shadowthrone wouldn’t have known QB as an acolyte. Obviously High House Shadow existed before the acension of K&D (though it wasn’t a major player until then) which seems to imply that some form of Shadowthrone existed before Kellanved took the title?
As for the Crippled God, the eye-opening phrase for me was that “many lands were sundered by the God’s Fists”. I thought the fact that the CG landed on multiple continents was new information in DoD, but here we see it halfway through book one!
And no, we’ve never seen QB shapeshift (per se) that I recall. Of course, given what we learn in MoI, it could be that Ben Adaephon Delat was not originally a thin, effeminate black man.
@9 I have to confess, the only reason I was able to pull out the information about the Crippled God is through knowing that the final book is named after this god! Otherwise it would have completely passed me by because, as you say, it is stuck right in the middle of plenty of other information.
Salt-Man Z@12
The Shadow realm existed before Kellanved ascends to become Shadowthrone. It’s clear he “knows” Ben Delat in some fashion. Whether this is from becoming Shadowthrone or from Kellanved’s own memory (or both) is unclear.
Note that we have seen QB perform a soul shift in transferring Hairlock to the puppet body.
I think we have our first mention of the Crippled God here right? From where was he called to earth? Do we know? And do his chains have to do with the chains later mentioned in connection to Dragnipur? Or are those solely for the souls taken with that sword?
Seeking is not the same as finding, and finding is not the same as succeeding. Baruk says this about the Tyrant’s barrow, but this could also be said about Paran’s (and by extension, Lorn’s) mission to deal with Sorry.
Dun dun dun DUHN!! So we find out a new name for Quick Ben => Delat. BTW you gotta love the interaction between Quick Ben and Shadowthrone.
High Priest, burning vestments? There’s a story there! I hope Erikson will tell us that story in the future.
I like how the way Kalam just ignores whatever magic stuff Quick Ben is doing, illustrates their long history together, which is reinforced later in this scene, when they get ready to head out.
That rooftop fight between Kallam and Quick Ben and the Tiste Andii is described so well, you can just feel Kalam’s tenseness at every little sound.
The scene between Crokus and Challice is priceless and I love that Sorry assumed it had to be a tryst.
The scene where Rallick ponders his future and thinks his avenging Coll’s betrayal is his last humane act is really sad. He’s so despondent and resigned to it all.
Nice scene with Rake and the assassins. Seems they are pretty resilient (broken neck, but not dead). But it also shows us how vulnerable their numbers are. Do we know how many Tiste Andii are actually left?
Quick Ben shook his head at Whiskeyjack and sat down in the chair Mallet had occupied. ‘What’s the game?’ he asked, picking up Mallet’s cards and frowning as he studied them.
Neither Hedge nor Fiddler replied.
‘No idea,’ Whiskeyjack said, as he walked over to stand behind Mallet. ‘They just sit and stare.’
Quick Ben grinned. ‘Ah, a waiting game, right, Fid?’ He leaned back comfortably and stretched out his legs.
[…]
Whiskeyjack sighed. ‘This is getting absurd. No, we leave things as they are.’ He watched the non-existent card game. It seemed to involve complete immobility. A stand-off. The sergeant’s eyes narrowed. Were they trying to tell him something?
This part made me laugh at first, but it does reach back to what Kalam and Quick Ben discuss before they head out to follow Rallick. They know they’re in bind with on the one hand the Empress trying to kill them and on the other hand Whiskeyjack’s loyalties not letting him walk away. So it’s a stand-off between the smart thing to do and Whiskeyjack’s sense of honour. Or am I way off-base here?
Now it was Rake’s turn to smile. ‘There are few who would argue with me without flinching. I am unused to be addressed as an equal.’
‘There are many paths to Ascendancy, some more subtle than others.’ Baruk walked over to the mantel above the fireplace, took a carafe, then went to the shelf behind his desk and retrieved two crystal goblets.
Is Baruk saying what I think he’s saying? If so, what House could he be? Or is he just bluffing? I guess Bill is saying that it is!
The book definitely kicked into action in these chapters! Can’t wait for next week :D
@15: The chains for the Crippled god are different than those within Dragnipur.
Taistagion@3:
– The scene where ShadowThrone Yells out, “It is you! Delat! You shape-shifting bastard!” is very interesting. –
And here a spoilerish question to the crowd:
Over time, we have seen QB a LOT of things, but did he ever actually shapeshift, at least in the run of this cycle ? One of the big mysteries sorrounding this character (unless I missed something)
I don’t think we have seen. But there are ‘clues’.
Some base QB’s Soletaken form to be revealed, based on a POV from his sister in The Bonehunters.
My theory is that his other form is something other, based on one single letter (as in character) SE used in the same book.
Happy hunting. ;) My shoutbox is open :):p
Oh, and:
@Amanda and Bill:
Keep going like this!
I’ll try to get into more detailed comments to your stuff if I find the time and something is still not being covered when I get there :)
Really enjoy this posting every week. You guys do an awesome job.
Why are the words Chained and Crippled capitalized?? Is this significant or am I grasping?
It’s significant.
I just got back from a holiday and it took me, I think, upwards of two hours to catch up with the re-read! Thankfully, I’ve just finished GoTM last week, and I’m looking forward to the coming conversations, especially regarding what is and what isn’t a Deus ex Machina ;-)
Anyway, I hope I’m not returning to covered ground; what is it with Kruppe’s dream that makes it impervious even to gods? (Other than K’rul, that is…) I think this question was touched upon in Bill and Amanda’s summaries, but then it escaped our attention. Just one of the many surprising aspects of Kruppe? Or do similar ‘places’ such as Kruppe’s dream come up in the other books?
And, on a completely unrelated note; (really my curiosity only); are there any Jaghut left by now? If I understand the timeline, the last T’lan Imass Jaghut war occurred right after the assassination of Kellanved, which, if I recall correctly, was about nine years ago. So that would either mean that the extermination of all Jaghut took all (minus 9) of 300,000 years (conveniently co-occurring with the time when the reader enters the story), or it would mean that the T’lan Imass right now have no further indication of remaining Jaghut, but this would leave the possibility of surviving Jaghut wide open. So; are there Jaghut left? ‘Cause right now I would be kind of rooting for any surviving Jaghut ;-)
PJ @21: or it would mean that the T’lan Imass right now have no further indication of remaining Jaghut, but this would leave the possibility of surviving Jaghut wide open.
Go with that one. ;)
Re: The Crippled God
The couple of paragraphs that Kruppe reads are indeed significant. They are the first mention we have of the Crippled God and as Amanda mentioned the title of the last volume of the series is “The Crippled God.”
We’ll find out quite a bit more, but I think it is very revealing just how much info (and that Erikson had this planned this early) is in this chapter.
@@@@@ 15. Mieneke
“I think we have our first mention of the Crippled God here right? From where was he called to earth? Do we know? And do his chains have to do with the chains later mentioned in connection to Dragnipur? Or are those solely for the souls taken with that sword?”
First a question, just curious, are you on your first-time read or a reread? You have had some very nice insights if this is your initial read.
To answer your questions here…..I’m not going to answer your questions here. LOL I’m definitely not trying to be mean, but some spoilers are just way toooo BIG to put out here this soon for the first time readers. I think the background info on the Crippled God is certainly one of them.
I’m hoping the other posters on here agree and no one will SPOIL the experience for you.
For me, a big part of this series is worked around the “mystery” surrounding the Crippled God and I would not have wanted to know the answer to the questions you are asking here before Erickson revealed them to me, piecemeal. :-)
I will tell you, you will begin getting your answers in Memories of Ice.
For surviving Jaghut, we get some information in Memories of Ice. The T’lan Imass think they’ve killed all the Jaghut, but they don’t know, and know they can’t be sure. Very irritating to them.
Salt-Man Z@21; tonyz@25 Hmmm, another reason to keep reading :-)
I did read MoI, but I’m a fast reader, which also means that I have to read at least twice for your-average-comprehension, and more times still to get to the details. Am looking forward to more, though!
@9 alisonwonderland:
I also enjoyed rereading this section knowing all there is to know now about the Crippled God and his chaining (or at least what I think I know)…
In fact not sure which I enjoyed seeing and understanding more, the beginning of Chapter 12 with the references to the CG or the last section of Chapter 13. With all the other commentary about Rake’s sword, I loved the line with which K’rul describes Dragnipur – “forged in darkness, it chains souls to the world that existed before the coming of light”.
It’s so incredible to look forward and realize all that is implied in this single statement. It’s hard to say more without being spoilery but everyone should file that line away for future reference.
And then we get some meeting with the Jaghut more directly in House of Chains, too. I have to re-read the later books and see if anyone pops up. There is, indeed, a truly amazing amount of detail in this series.
Robin55027@24:
I’m hoping the other posters on here agree and no one will SPOIL the experience for you.
I think the spoilage level has been rather low, even with people discussing stuff from future books…
As far as I’m concerned, I do try to lift a veil from future events, but I try and do so without spoiling anything from the reading experience.
But if anybody disagrees, please tell me. :)
“Kruppe has learned the value of modern language. Such long-lipped dribbles common to those ancient scholars are a curse Kruppe is thankful to find extinct in our time.” ROFLOL!!!
So glad you mentioned that, Amanda….good humor to break up all the seriousness. I almost gagged…still chuckling.
Mammot: I freely acknowledge that I have finished this book and I still don’t understand all of what Mammot is about. Do we get more of him?
Ben Adaephon Delat: QB’s adventure into Shadowthrone’s realm was great and illuminating….QB is soooo much more and I can’t wait to find out….I hope he lasts a long long time in these books. I suspect that Kellenvad knew him as a bridgeburner in his own army before his “Ascension”. But why didn’t he recognize him? Has he already “shifted” his shape? Is he in a “new” body? He does know about the transmigration of souls, since he did it to Hairlock. Ummmmmm……
Question: Somewhere it was mentioned that House Shadow had disappeared from the deck or had just appeared 10 years ago or reappeared, when K & D ascended. So where was it before appearing/reappearing. Who occupied the Throne before and what happened to them? Do we ever find this out and do we need to know this?
Crokus: I feel so sorry for him…..I totally expect that little chit, Chalice, to give him the cold shoulder. She may be fascinated by a “thief”, a young, nice, handsome thief….in her room….how romantic….but in Real Life? I suspect she lacks the sense of adventure a Maid Marion-type character would require.
Rallick Nom: A tragic train of thought. He has such good and noble sides too. I do hope we see more of him…..”His final victim would be himself.” I hope not.
Sorry: So nice to see her old “real” self emerge, if only for a brief moment…gives me hope for her. And the Seer must be in there too. Whiskeyjack’s mention of that word shook her.
Whiskeyjack: There’s a whole WJ pov in the Phoenix Inn while they are waiting for QB and Kalam to return where he thinks on his life and his men….very poignant. His mind had stepped into the gray, muddy tracks of his youth, where he walked the familiar path, lost and blinded by an unidenitfiable sorrow. Many layers to the commander.
Baruk & Rake: I loved that Baruk spoke his mind to Rake and that Rake apologized for not consulting Baruk. I takes a powerful mage to stand up to Rake…..an ascendent perhaps????…..and a confident man?? to apologize when in the wrong. I know Rake’s a dark force, but as many have pointed out, no one is all bad and there are honorable parts of Rake. I can’t help but like him. He seems almost reasonable…curious…eager to learn what he doesn’t know.
And I hope we get more of Baruk in future books too…..
Oh yes….It appears that Baruk killed two of the Pale wizards. It seems he gave them the choice of beheading or being victims of Rake’s sword. Ummmm…..very interesting complication. Baruk and Rake must’ve been in cahoots before they met here in Darujistan and what was Baruk doing killing Pale’s mages?
I believe that there is at least one Jaghut still alive…
Tektonica @30:
Question: Somewhere it was mentioned that House Shadow had disappeared from the deck or had just appeared 10 years ago or reappeared, when K & D ascended. So where was it before appearing/reappearing. Who occupied the Throne before and what happened to them? Do we ever find this out and do we need to know this?
This really has to be one big read and find out as the story that goes into this plays a huge role in the overall backstory of MBotF.
Tektonica@30:
I think you’re a little mixed up. Those two mages abandoned Pale instead of helping Rake defend it and fled to Darujistan. Baruk pumped them for information on what happened at Pale and they neglected to mention they were deserters. When Rake finds out they’re in Darujistan (he already tracked down and killed the others that deserted), he tells Baruk he’s going to kill them for deserting Pale. Baruk kills them instead to prevent Rake from using his sword on them, prompting Rake to tell Baruk he’s too merciful. There was no meeting between Baruk and Rake before Darujistan.
@@@@@ 29. Fiddler
“I think the spoilage level has been rather low, even with people discussing stuff from future books…
As far as I’m concerned, I do try to lift a veil from future events, but I try and do so without spoiling anything from the reading experience.
But if anybody disagrees, please tell me. :)”
I agree with you 100% that the spoilege level has been rather low, and furthermore, there is certainly no rule on here against posting spoilers. In fact, the intro paragraphs each week specifically states that there were will be spoilers in the comments posted. I’m not the “spoiler police” but I do realize now how rude that line in my post may have sounded. Honestly, I didn’t mean it the way it reads at all, if anyone thinks I was purposely being critical. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I simply meant that the two questions Meineke ask in that initial paragraph of his/her post, (where did the Crippled God come from? and the nature of the chains?) were almost at the core of the series if you will and that I didn’t want to answer those questions yet. For me, on my initial read, it would have ruined a lot of my “ah ha” moments in the books to come, if I had known the answers to those questions as early as GoTM.
My comment that I hoped no one else “spoiled” it, was simply meant to be directed to Meineke, as a half-hearted joke, that I hoped no one answered and he/she had to wait. I realize now the potential for it to have been misconstrued. I wasn’t trying to be preachy, honest.
MEINEKE, if you truly do want the answers now, feel free to email me @@@@@ Robin55077@@@@@yahoo.com and I will be more than happy to share my thoughts with you. I just really don’t want to post them on here this early.
Robin @33
The only spoilers I would be concerned about, currently, are the ones relating specifically to GotM only. The rest is so complex that neophytes will have forgotten about it by the next weekly segment because they are hustling to keep up with what is at hand, anyway…IMHO
So no worry.
Harai@32: Thank you for setting me straight. I do remember the mage deserters now. I certainly don’t blame them for taking Baruk up on his offer. No one would willing die by Draginpur!
This is what I get for reading far ahead. I think I’ll do my own reread of the chapters in GotM the night before the posts…. it might help me look a bit smarter….and get my head back into this book.
As far as spoilers go…..I’m still amazed at how few there are….people have politely posted *Spoiler* above them on the thread, and although I have read them all, (I am a newbie to the series), I don’t understand half of them. I should perhaps start rereading all the posts now that I’m into MoI!
kramerdude@31: Thanks for the RAFO….at least I know it’s important! When do we get this backstory?
Thanks to everyone for all the insights!
Fiddler @17
I guess (guess…) I found the part re QB you tipped me off on. Highly ambiguous, for a change. I´ll check again.
But in the process I stumbled over a little scene between Cotillion and *Character X*, where C does a little info dump on his and ST´s motivations. And what C says in that scene truly holds, his entire motivations in GotM are plainly contradictory/idiotic…or a GotM-ism…sorry to bring this up again… ;0)
Tek @30:
You are waay wide of the mark. Rake’s known as the ‘Son of Darkness’, but that has nothing to do with his character or being ‘a dark force’ in the sense implied in your quote. You’ll see a lot of Rake in the books ahead and have lots of opportunities to understand who he is.
Tek @35
*kramerdude@31: Thanks for the RAFO….at least I know it’s important! When do we get this backstory?*
In little bits and pieces spread over 4000-5000 pages…*compassionategrin*…is it ever otherwise with SE ? As a piece of consolation: THAT entire backstory is a major backbone to the entire cycle…and one of the most glorious, convoluted WTF-messes in recent fantasy writing…
Got a double post and a bizarre huge Error code??? Tor is fritzing out!
Alisonwonderland@37:
OK….what do you mean? He is very formidable, powerful, shapeshifting, a mage, and also seems fair, concerned for his people, willing to parlay and work with others (to his own benefit, I’m sure).
So where is the mark and am I wide left or right?
Taitastigon@38: Love the *compassionategrin*. LOL.
So this is a backbone of the story, eh? Glad I wondered out loud about that……I’ll be collecting clues!
Tek@40:
A hint about backstory: “Darkness” means something a little different as a reference, in this series, than in a lot of Extruded Fantasy Product. Same for “Light” (which we don’t actually see much of) and “Shadow”. Among other things … all three are Elder Warrens of sorcery, and Anomander Rake is associated with the Elder Warren of Darkness (Kurald Galain) simply by _being_ Tiste Andii. …Its appearance in descriptions of his sword is mostly separate from that. In short, “Son of Darkness” isn’t an attempt to compare him morally to Hitler or the like; if anything, it’s surprisingly literal. (Read And Find Out!)
On the spoilers… I’ve just finished Midnight Tides myself, and I know this reread won’t get there for quite a while. But … when we do, there’s one especially Big Reveal that doesn’t come till almost the end of the book (and a related slightly smaller one just a bit earlier). Would it be possible, I wonder, for everyone to keep hush about it on the way, so as not to change Amanda’s reading experience? (Cuz I’ve just found that a great deal of it reads a lot differently once you know what’s involved…)
–Dave
Tektonica @40:
I think alisonwonderland means where you refer to Rake as a “dark force” and is reading it in the sense of Rake being evil. I know there was an earlier discussion on the nature of evil characters but Rake is far from an evil character.
@35:
What Taitastigon said @38 – in fact if you’ve read DG you’ve seen some bits of it (but not enough pieces to put it together yet). And yes it is an incredible mind-blowing how the hell did he put all that shit together.
@16 Shalter: Thank you for the answer!
@24&33 Robin: Well, I’m a bit of both actually. I’ve read the books till book 4 and never got around to reading the rest. Then in 2007 I decided to re-read the first four books and then catch up but I got halfway through GotM, got a new job and so that plan went out the window. So now I’m re-reading along here. Add to that, I just had my first baby about four and a half months ago and that darn pregnancy dementia is still wreaking havoc with my brain, and I guess I’d qualify as a first timer with a head start?
And you tease lol guess I have to keep reading :D
And no worries on the spoilers, I haven’t seen any that have given any of the big things away yet, or if I did they’re SO big that people won’t be able to place them and I agree with Tai @34 most newbie (or semi-newbies like myself) will have forgotten by the time we get to it (I’m still blaming the pregnancy dementia for that, I’ve decided I can milk that for at least awhile yet ;)) If I really run into something I want to know right now I’ll be sure to email you, but I’m happy to learn as I go along, I just wanted to make sure I knew what to pay particular attention to as we read on!
@Tektonica & Annomander Rake
Rake is powerfull to the extreme, but characterizing him as a “Dark Force” is right only in the “coloring” of his powers. Someone (I think it might actually have been you) said in the comments to an earlier post that he/she “had a good feeling about his integrity”. And that characterizes him perfectly.
@Martial Prowess of Women
Well we are talking Tiste Andii women here so the point is kind of vague, but Erikson indeed makes no difference between the powers (in any sense of the word) of men and women. While this is certainly not realistic in Hand to Hand combat it indeed is a good thing for the books in my opinion. Dragons arent very realistic either ;-)
@Pearl
I allways loved this scene. The demon is only introduced for a few sentences, yet Erikson can make not only Quick Ben but also the reader pity him. This is one of the genuine strengths of this series.
Tek @@@@@ 40
As has been mentioned, in this series Darkness, Shadow, Light are not meant to be taken as pointing out their moral compass in this series. Most other fantasy refers to Dark as Evil and Light as Good, not so here.
—-
I know Rake’s a dark force, but as many have pointed out, no one is all bad and there are honorable parts of Rake.
—-
Your comment here reads as if you are looking at Rake as “a dark force” as being inherently evil, and that is simply not the case. Hope that clears it up a bit.
kramerdude@27
The final scene in chapter 13 is indeed interesting. We learn a couple of things about Dragnipur and then Kruppe pictures his Deck of Dragons and the picture of the Knight of Darkness — half man, half dragon with a sword trailing smoky chains.
K’rul states that none could withstand Dragnipur when it was forged, but that forging took place even before K’rul’s time. This gives us another interesting time line piece.
Kruppe picturing his deck of dragon’s also tells us that he has a deck.
Thank you all for your clarifications on Rake. I was beginning to doubt my moral compass.
I do understand about House Dark and House Shadow just being houses. I appreciate knowing they are not inherently evil.
The more I read about Rake, the more I genuinely like him. Nice to know I’m not misinterpreting him. While appearing to be one of the most powerful of mages yet seen, I find him to be curious, honorable, fair, even humble at times, as a self-confident person might indeed be. A high integrity individual.
I’m curious about The Deck of Dragons…..
Do only certain people have Decks? Mages, no doubt.
Can any mage interpret the Deck or do certain ones have an affinity for that? Tattersail, did. QB? Kruppe? Baruk? Mammot?
The Deck seems to “anticipate” events and give the interpreter meanings?
Houses seem to appear and disappear, true? Obviously, the players in various positions in the Deck can change…K & D being a prime example. Do the positions remain fixed?
Does the Deck predict or dictate?
Any insight here would be appreciated.
PJBrs@21
Kruppe’s dreamscape seems to be somewhat unique to Kruppe in his ability to completely control it. We do see lots of other dreaming in the series but I think that Kruppe has the most control.
Tek @49
Pretty much yes to most of your questions, except that: In the Deck itself, all is in flux & You have to have affinity to use the Deck, but not all mages seem to have the affinity and not all with affinity have to be mages…
@49 Tektonica
The ability to interpret the deck of dragons does not seem to be bound to beeing able to access Warrens or wield magic (Fiddler for example is a natural talent for divination and not a sorcerer). It seems to be more frequent in these individuals though.
The positions and houses of the deck can and do change. In MoI we will see more of how this works…
I do not think, that the Deck actually dictates what will happen. How and why it actually works is as far as I know not really clarified in the series so far.
Tektonica@49
The Deck is another fascinating element Erikson works into the story. At first thought, you think it is just similar to Tarot cards, but it develops into much more.
It seems that certain individuals have more affinity for decks than others. Not everyone who can use a deck is a mage.
For the decks that are in the hands of the adepts, it does seem that the decks do grow and change in response to the current residents of the Houses.
In some book (I forget which one) we see a scene with decks being sold by street vendors and get the impression that these decks may not be very good.
The full relationship of the Deck to the world is one of those pieces that we will see a lot of development on, but to answer your question on “Does the Deck predict or dictate?”, I think Yes is the appropriate answer–with the caveat that nothing is set in stone.
Tek @48
The role of Dark in the mythology of this world will become clearer as time goes by. It´s neither good nor evil, but maybe somewhat…aloof.
One aspect I love about the way Rake´s character is built: Here you have that immortal big-time hotshot that has that very nasty sword and looks kinda scary, but has no problem whatsoever to sit down besides a fireplace, get himself a nice goblet of good ole red, put up his feet and have a little trashtalk with his buddies. Aah, these little joys in life…! *g*
Very wicked way of deconstructing the image of a looming, immortal uberbeing.
@54
That Rake can find pleasure in sitting by the fireplace is another indication the fiber of his being.
How ‘immortality’ affects various characters/races is yet another thread to watch for.
sh @55
Oh boy, that will be various threads. One of them possible being *Immortality is one tedious, mind-warping bitch*…
shalter@47:
Just went back and re-checked that quote from K’rul. It’s “None could when it was first forged, but that was long ago. I cannot answer for the present.”
So I don’t necessarily think that there is anything reading into it that this was pre-K’rul-ian times.
And about the dragon, is this the first time we are clued in to Rake’s Draconean nature or was there previous allusions (other than the Moon’s Spawn/dragon connection in Alladart’s Realm Compendium)?
shalter@50 Ah, so a dreamscape is an actual place that can be visited by some (e.g., gods). And Kruppe’s dreamscape is not a “singularity.” Thanks for clearing that up!
@56 lol, that sums up the experience for many.
kramerdude@57
In my copy the quote is:
“None could when it was first forged, but that was long ago, before even my time. I cannot answer for the present.”
I’m curious–does your copy leave off the “before my time” part?
My copy is the 2000 Bantam, Great Britain edition.
PJBrs@58
I’m not certain if it is an ‘actual’ space, but gods (and others) do seem to be able to visit them.
PJBrs @21:
Kruppe himself answers this with: “the rewards of cynicism”. One of his best lines in the book :-)
Jaghut: In Erikson’s world you can’t kick a stone without finding underneath it someone from a race long believed to be extinct.
Rallick: His inner monologue is very touching, and is something to which I did not pay much attention when I first read the book. I’ve also completely missed the obvious parallels between his position and Whiskeyjack’s. Both are horrified to find that they are so close to losing their humanity and are desperate for a redeeming act.
Pearl: I love how Erikson uses Pearl to establish how bad-ass are the Tiste Andii in general, and Rake in particular. I especially like the imagery where Pearl and QB both look up to see Rake descending with Dragnipur on his back, and they both know that Pearl has no chance to survive the encounter. Pearl’s “do you pity me?” remark is very touching. It also clearly refers not just to Pearl’s pending death, but to the fact that it is death by Dragnipur.
Rake: I love every scene with him and Baruk together. They get along very well, and it’s indeed a great testament to Rake’s character that he can apologize when shown to be wrong. And though we aren’t told much about the Dragnipur yet, there’s another display here of its power by showing that the deserting Pale wizards willingly died (without protest!) just to avoid that fate.
kramerdude @57:
In my copy K’rul specifically says: “… but that was long ago, before even my time”. which doesn’t make sense to me given the timelines that are discussed in MoI. Maybe this is a mistake that was corrected in newer editions of GotM.
sh @60
if I am not wrong, there were minor corrections in the US version. And that specific omission you mention would definitely count as a correction vs. MoI.
@57 – well, I was advised about Rake’s eyes as the beginning of the Draconian mentions.
I liked the part where we feel pity for the demon Pearl, also.
This is a good point to mention that ‘demons’ in MBotF are ‘people’ too. We’ll eventually be finding out more, but for now watch for various kinds–for example Pearl is named as a Korvalah demon.
@63 ok, that makes more sense based on later events and timeline things we find.
PJB @58
I have never quite figured out where Kruppe´s dreamscape fits in. IMHO SE leaves that item ambiguous on purpose, just as Kruppe is a very ambiguous personality with respect to his powers.
Kruppe is pretty much a singularity within that entire universe & I never got the impression that SE would ever want to shed more light on that.
shal @65
SE´s take on demons is very fascinating: They may be ugly MFs in the human eye, but instead of simply being minions of some evil entity, they – often enough – are species from a different plane of reality, living in their own societies and cultures, that get abducted by mages or Gods to do their bidding and dirty work.
@67 We do see things happening in other character’s dreams later on, but I agree that Kruppe stands alone in his ‘scape.
Robin55077@33:
I’m not the “spoiler police” but I do realize now how rude that line in my post may have sounded. Honestly, I didn’t mean it the way it reads at all, if anyone thinks I was purposely being critical. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I didn’t think you meant it rude or critical. :) But I just realized that it’s easy to reveal too much, without knowing you are doing it. So if somebody does notice, feel free to point it out. I can edit posts, after all ;)
Taitastigon@36:
Re: little clues concerning QB in The Bonehunters.
I’m curious if you caught it, and about your heavily masked other findings. ;) If you register your account (‘going grey’ as it’s generally called here, referring to the colour your handle is shown in), you can leave me a message in my shoutbox. :) Being registered also gets you little benefits like free stories or sample chapters from TOR every now and then. :)
Oh, and you can edit your posts.
Going to reread Amanda’s and Bill’s commentary now…
Fid @70
OK, I´ll register in short.
Done. You got shoutboxed.
@@@@@ Taitastigon:
Welcome to the Grey Side. If ever there is a reread on TOR where that seems appropriate, it is in here…
(replied)
Still not finished with Kruppe’s dream. Let me know when I start boring you :-)
@67 @69; So are Kruppe’s dreams a singular occurrence in the sense that, not only they feature gods / people (like everyone’s dreams), these gods / people are also real and themselves?
That might not be sufficiently clear. The issue is–how are dreams and reality related in tMBotF? And how is Kruppe’s dream specific? I take it that, in tMBoTF, dreams can be prophetic; maybe they can reflect what is actually happening somewhere else. So dream and reality are related, but they are apart.
Now Kruppe’s dream then would be singular in a very specific sense: his dreamscape is a place in which some actual events occur themselves. So instead of dreams being apart from reality (despite being about it, prophesying it), Kruppe’s dream are part of reality; for Kruppe it is a dream, but for the Rhivi, Pran Chole, Tattersail / Silverfox and K’rul it’s a place, a “somewhere”. Yes??
A simple approach to this question would, by the way, be to just wait for the next dream in the series ;-) Should be something in Deadhouse Gates. I almost can’t believe how much I’ve managed to forget from reading the first five books…
How dreams in general relate to the world of tMBoTF is interesting and all the flavors apply–normal, prophetic, etc.
Then there are the ‘special’ dreams and the dream worlds. Kruppe is the obvious leader here. There is another character in a later book who is visited very realistically in his dreams by someone and it seems like a similar place as in Kruppe’s dreaming.
Now as to what the dreamscape of Kruppe is and how it relates the the ‘real’ world–I don’t recall that it is completely explained. My personal theory (and it’s just a theory) is that Kruppe’s dreamscape is somewhat like his own warren (but not exactly). In some sense it is a ‘real’ place in which others can enter and may even seem like their world.
Bill:
I admit to a little confusion on Kruppe lying to Baruk about the Malazans. He doesn’t tell him they’re there, but then tells Baruk to “look to the streets” to find them (then of course slips and mentions “road repairs” a little later). I’m wondering if this is to
a) keep distance between himself and what he knows as far as Baruk is concerned (though Baruk is clearly aware that Kruppe knows a lot),
b) a means to build up the Eel (from whom the info supposedly comes), or c) something much more obvious I’m missing (anyone?)
Isn’t this just Kruppe trying to make sure Baruk will believe Kruppe and The Eel are separate people? I admit to not having read the chapter recently though, so I may have missed your meaning.
Amanda:
Oh interesting—it sounds as though Sorry is in the game purely to neutralise the Oponn players; this section mentions the fact that she killed Paran and the un-named garrotted Claw Leader in Pale.
I don’t think Shadowthrone and Cotillion knew about Oponn getting involved. As I see it they somehow got a whiff of Laseen wanting the Jaghut Tyrant getting released (is it exactly stated when exactly Tayschrenn ordered Bellurdan to research that tomb, and on how long it took him?).
slight spoiler:
Also, from The Bonehunters, we know that ST and Tayschrenn still talk sometimes.
(highlight with mouse from spoiler warning until here to read it)
What is happening here, I think, is that Sorry, being Cotillion’s/Shadowthrone’s agent is recognizing Oponn’s influence, and wanting to make sure that influence is eliminated asap, since it’s random and therefore a danger to their scheming.
shalter@60:
I’m reading from the 2004 Tor Hardcover and the line is indeed truncated as I wrote. Definitely makes a bit more sense in the revised version and guess that makes it an official corrected GotM-ism.
Adding to my previous post @76:
And that solves the spoiler thing, if it ever gets to become a problem.
Put tags around it saying:
color=white (between brackets [ and ])
spoiler text you want to hide from everybody reading it without making an effort
/color (between brackets [ and ])
giving this:
spoiler text you want to hide from everybody reading it without making an effort
It’s in the BB-code. :)
Very clever, Fiddler! Thanks for explaining that!
I was wondering about Kruppe’s dreamscape too…..I kind of thought it might be something like a “public” warren…a neutral ground, or something. He seems to be “invited” to talk with certain people….he doesn’t plan these things in advance.
He just falls asleep, wanders the dreamscape and ends up in a situation. Ummm. An “affinity”, like being able to read the Deck?
That’s a cool way to use the BB-code Fiddler, thanks!
@Tek:
I think K’rul is providing the place where these dream meetings happen. Especially since the meeting with Pran Chole is also a distance away in time. Reeks of Elder God stuff.
Kruppe seems to be connected to K’rul (note the similarities in name?), and I see him as hosting the dream meetings, speaking for K’rul too, and being the vessel for spirits from his ‘now’ to get there.
A certain thing happening between Kruppe and Caladan Brood in MoI is backing up the connection-idea for me. ;)
Edit: I forgot to mention that K’rul is still relatively weak for an Elder God at this point, having just been reawakened and all.
Marc Rikmenspoel@@@@@ 2
thanks for the encouragement–glad you’re enjoying it!
@@@@@3 Taitastigon
I join the group in being nearly positive (as positive as one can be in trying to recall thousands of pages) that we’ve never seen Quick Ben shape-shift or really had it much hinted that it’s happening off-stage. I know the scenes referenced in Bonehunters that point some toward one possibility (and I think some other dialogue points us in other directions as well) and we’ll certainly have a field day at that point discussing it I’m guessing (I personally think that would be more obvious than Erikson usually gives us)
“QB’s nominal rank is Squad Mage, but by this point it should be pretty clear that no one in the BridgeBurner squad is quite what their current ranks make them out to be.”
we’ll see a lot of this kind of “hiding in plain sight” or lowered expectations from characters in the series, some of the attempts/failures quite funny. And with specific regard to Quick Ben, the question of how long or how much Quick Ben can “hide” is something several characters ask themselves, adding to his mystery.
Mieneke@@@@@15
“I think we have our first mention of the Crippled God here right? From where was he called to earth? Do we know? And do his chains have to do with the chains later mentioned in connection to Dragnipur? Or are those solely for the souls taken with that sword?”
As you’ve already been answered, they don’t have to do w/ the sword’s chains. But the imagery of chains and the metaphorical meanings associated with chains, will run throughout the series emphasizing some underlying themes
more reaction to comments to come (off to play Spaceopoly with the boy–a little fantasy, a little sci-fi . . . )
“To answer your questions here…..I’m not going to answer your questions here”
:)
that would be a great tagline for this reread
“For me, a big part of this series is worked around the “mystery” surrounding the Crippled God”
I’d agree with this and add that one of my favorite aspects (hmm, how many “favorite aspects” am I up to? How many does one get?) is that so many of the “mysteries” aren’t simply plot-related but response-related. What I mean by that is we tend to “see” (sometimes literally, sometimes via second or third hand references) characters or events in one way early on and think we have them pegged, and then as we go along, we start to question whether our original response was the correct one. Sometimes it’s because we start to wonder if a p-o-v wasn’t perhaps as reliable, sometimes it’s because we start to realize that Erikson is playing w/ the tropes. The Crippled God might be one of those where it’s not just FAQ mysteries (who is it, how did it arrive, etc.) but response mysteries as well. I think we’ve seen some have the same response/re-response to Rake based on pre-conceived associations with darkness based on all those “lords of darkness” we see in other fantasies. I’d say the T’lan Imass-Jaghut was is another such example. Personally, I love that sense of the ground shifting underfoot as the views are rearranged
“When do we get this backstory?*
In little bits and pieces spread over 4000-5000 pages…*compassionategrin*…is it ever otherwise with SE ?”
Is it just me who has fantasized about buying a whole new set of the books and tearing out pages and then organizing them by backstory so those stories run seamlessly? So over here is my chronological pile of pages dealing with Shadowthrone, over here my chronological pile dealing with Dark/Light/Shadow, and so on? It can’t be just me, can it?
On the Deck, already some nice concise and clear explanations from Taitastigon @@@@@51 and Kah-thurak@@@@@52. The only other thing I’d add to those excellent points is that we’ll also see how the Deck isn’t “passive” but can be employed, as well as see how the Deck has literally evolved (you think the Dec is a bit hard to grasp now, wait ’til you start trying to mesh it with what came before . . . )
Taitastigon@@@@@54 and Shalter@@@@@55
I too always like those “hang out w/ a drink” scenes with Rake (and later a few others). And Shalter is absolutely right that the way in which various characters cope (or not) with the weight of time is a major topic in the series and some of the most poignant scenes are when we see the characters wrestling with their own longevity and what that entails. It’s always good to keep in mind just how ancient/old many of these characters are and how that often means a wholly different pov on events
Amir @@@@@ 62
“Jaghut: In Erikson’s world you can’t kick a stone without finding underneath it someone from a race long believed to be extinct.”
And I love how literal this is . . .
Fiddler @@@@@ 76
“isn’t this just Kruppe trying to make sure Baruk will believe Kruppe and The Eel are separate people?”
it would seem so, but it just seemed a bit odd and clumsy, in that Baruk obviously believes Kruppe can find things out himself, so I wasn’t sure why that info had to come from the Eel. When he first lied, I thought, OK, Kruppe is just delaying Baruk from confronting the Malazans as he’d been told that there may be allies in strange places, etc., but then he goes and gives him the “look to the streets” and then, albeit accidentally, “road repairs”. Just jarred a bit to me and I wondered if I were missing something. Oh, and thanks for throwing in the “how to do spoilers in invisible text” instructions–a good thing for the group to know!
I’ve not even started reading the actual pages, but:
As far as Quick Ben’s possible shapeshifting abilities, the only other High Priest of Shadow we’ve seen in the series (Iskataral Pust) is, IIRC. So maybe it’s something all of Shadowthrone’s followers learn.
I think the confusion is due to the use of the “shapeshifting” word. In the series we associate that word to Soletaken or D’ivers, but I think there wasn’t any hidden meaning here.
Quick Ben simply concealed his true human form to not be recognized by Shadowthrone. Remember that both ST and QB don’t seem to use Darkness directly, but Meanas, and Meanas is the path of Illusion.
It’s rather plausible that one who can use “Illusion” is even able to conceal himself or appear different than how he is.
Bill @83
– Is it just me who has fantasized about buying a whole new set of the books and tearing out pages and then organizing them by backstory so those stories run seamlessly? So over here is my chronological pile of pages dealing with Shadowthrone, over here my chronological pile dealing with Dark/Light/Shadow, and so on? It can’t be just me, can it? –
Man, would you believe that I have come to the point (being between my 3rd to 5th reread) that recently I did just that ? Not ripping the pages out, but taking a certain pov and just sticking to it, by having 3-4 volumes besides me and sifting/skipping through them.
It really DOES help (as a specific type of reread), but man, what a pain…
Fiddler@81: Ah, thanks for the Kruppe/K’rul conection! I’ll look for that in MoI. ;-)
Billcap@82 & 83: I love that QB is “just” a soldier….LOL. All of them…understated indeed.
So the Deck can be “employed”? If you are an adept at it, you can effect change by using the Deck? Is that what you’re saying? OOOOOOOh! That adds a twist to the beginning of MoI! And the fact that it is elastic…grows, changes, morphs.
I do love Rake being a “normal” guy….such a powerful, ancient force.
I love what you say about the “response” being as important as the words…..the characters’ responses and ours. SE does love to play with the tropes and how refreshing!
@@@@@ 67 Taitastigon & @@@@@ 75 Shalter
With respect to Kruppe’s “dreams” I have always thought of them as a warren, and thought myself alone in this thinking, so probably wrong. :-)
It just has the “feel” of a warren to me. Also, the God who frequently walks them with Kruppe is K’rul so that gave me added weight that perhaps it is a in fact a warren. The fact that Tattersail’s soul-shifting took place there also added weight for me. However, to date, I have found no “proof” to back up my thought so have kept it to myself.
Shalter, nice to now that you share a similar thought on the warren possibility. I don’t feel so dumb now.
After all, for those of us who have read the later books, we do know that there are some warrens that are not pathways of magic walked by the masses. A certain character’s sack/bag, for example, that we are specifically told is a warren.
It has always made sense to me that Kruppe’s dream is a warren, but, alas, I have found no proof.
Robin,
I have also believed exactly the same, that Kruppe’s dream is a warren. At the end of this book he drew the real big badass into his dream and tried to use the dream as a kind of prison for the badass. Clearly his dreamscape was a warren then. I also seem to recall that it was his dream the Mybhe retired into, but I may not be remembering correctly.
Hello everybody,
just a minor snippet/observation: Is it just my impression that K´rul may phonetically be pronounced as *cruel*…?
Considering that that gentleman only thrives on blood sacrifice…would be kind of a wicked little word play by SE, that little bugger…*g*
Tek,
If there is such a thing as a purely good, selfless, honorable character among all the uber-powerful beings in the Malaz world, it is Rake. Him being a dark force in the sense of being evil is about as far away from his true character as it is possible to get.
Alisonwonderland@90:
In my reading so far, I can completely agree with you about Rake. I know you’ve read more of the books, if not all of them, so I’m very happy to hear it. Thanks.
Taitasigon@89: *grin*
I assumed it was pronounced “cruel”….fits. LOL.
I too noticed the K’rul/cruel connection once upon a time (even though I pronounce it, basically, “krull”.) I didn’t make too much of it, though, as K’rul is really one of the most benevolent Ascendants in the entire series.
Alison @88: No, the Mhybe’s deal had nothing to do with Kruppe. More with the (old-school) Imass and the Wolves o’ Winter.
Salt @92
– I too noticed the K’rul/cruel connection once upon a time (even though I pronounce it, basically, “krull”.) I didn’t make too much of it, though, as K’rul is really one of the most benevolent Ascendants in the entire series –
___________________________________
By curiosity: Has the correct pronunciation ever been mentioned anywhere ? This seems like one of those little mind effs that SE loves to throw in there – I can literally see him giggling into his cappucchino in that Café of his years ago when he created this little ambiguous gem to *screw* us over…*g*
Tait@93 and Salt@92
I always pronounced it “Krull” for some reason. Although I think you might be right Tait that SE probably was giggling in his cappuccino when he wrote it.
After the first meeting between Rake and Baruk I always felt that Rake was much more a “good guy” than he was a “bad guy”. He allies Moon Spawn merely to keep his people from falling into apathy.
You can add me to the number of folks here who view Kruppe’s dreams as a warren. With how varied warrens can be, I always just assumed his dreams were also a warren. No concrete proof, just seems to fit.
As far as K’rul, I also pronounce it “krull”.
I seem to recall in a previous recap that I thought Kruppe’s dream state might be his version of a warren *grins* Glad that was something I wasn’t just making up to add complexity, and that other people also see the possibility!
@Amanda 96
In think it would actually be much more complex, if the dreamscape wasnt a Warren of some sort. Because… what else would it be then?
@Kah-thurak – well, I guess if not a Warren then we’re stuck with another of those dream-worlds like the one in the Wheel of Time (not even going to try and write it out properly!) which I think is too cliched for Steven Erikson *grin*
@Amanda
As T’riss, the Queen of Dreams, has her own Warren there is no need for a Dreamworld in MBotF ;-)
I guess the more interesting question is which Warren it might be… which Warren Kruppe uses for his magic is never stated, but the presence of K’rul certainly opens a lot of possibillities and Tool mentions Starvald Develain when Tattersail escapes into Nightchills body.
doublepost…
If Kruppe’s dreamscape is like a warren it is not necessarily one of the common warrens used by mages. I would guess it would be more like the bag warren–a sort of personal warren.
Kah-thurak @99
It doesn’t necessarily need to be a specific aspected Warren. As we see later in the series, some individuals have the ability to create their own personal warrens, and even a bag with a warren inside. Even the MBotF world needs a Bag of Holding hehe.
edit: looks like shalter beat me to it. guess i shouldn’t walk away for an hour before posting a comment lol.
@Amanda:
Yes, having a name definitely makes it more personal. You’ve touched on yet another important thread here. First, there’s the writing craft part of this particular comment–if you give a character a name, it helps readers relate even if the character is only briefly there.
Second, names can be powerful things. We see this when Lorn ‘names’ Tool and we’ll see that what things are called has some meaning. However, interestingly names don’t seem to carry quite the magical weight as in other fantasy settings. Just knowing someones name isn’t enough to perform conjuring with in general.
First comment from me. I can’t resist any longer, I’m really enjoying this reread.
SE’s characters can and do change in the series, so what they become is almost more important than what they are in the “now”. If they are “talents”, trained or untrained, their abilities will probably increase.
Does anybody else wonder if Pearl was female and related to a certain demonic character in ROTCG?
@@@@@ Amanda
“Also amused that, with all the Daru assassins on the rooftops—meant to be trained killers, after all—it is Kalam who downs the majority of the Tiste Andii assassins. That also shows us Kalam’s capabilities.”
More so than you even realize at this point. Keep in mind that all assassins are not created equal. :-)
Very few ascendants, and probably even few gods, could stand toe-to-toe with a Tiste Andii intent on killing them and walk away from the battle.
You will be learning a lot more of Kalam in the books to come.
***SPOILER ALERT*** Not a big one
Re: Quick Ben’s meeting with Shadowthrown.
You will get a nice bit of background information about Quick Ben and how he came to join the Bridgeburners in Memories of Ice. This will certainly answer some of your questions about him, but most definitely not all. You will receive tidbits of info on Quick Ben throughout the series, however, to date, there are still questions remaining unanswered. Perhaps we will learn all in the final book?
@@@@@ Amanda
“Who is Kruppe’s grandmother? I imagine she might be quite important based on Kruppe’s skill with magic!”
I believe Kruppe was simply being facetious with this remark. Just page after page of names…so many names, that he “expected to see his grandmother’s” name among them. I do not recall any other mention of his grandmother in the series.
Robin55077@107:
I’m just happy to know Quick Ben will be around until the last book….in some form! He and Rake are the most intriguing characters to me, so far….
@@@@@ Amanda
“I could do with some help regarding the scene with Ocelot and Rallick—does Ocelot want to make a deal with the assassin Rallick has found (obviously Kalam), or does he want to remove him? And who is Vorcan—someone I have met already that I’ve now forgotten? Or someone new?”
Vorcan is the head of the Assassins’ Guild in Darujistan. Remember, the Assassins’ Guild do not realize that they are being attacked by Tiste Andii. They believe it is the Claw taking out their assassins. They are very frightened of the skill of the Empire’s Claw. Therefore, their intent would be to take out the Claw before the Claw can kill more of their Guild.
108. Tektonica
“I’m just happy to know Quick Ben will be around until the last book….in some form! He and Rake are the most intriguing characters to me, so far….”
Sorry if I “spoiled” that for you!!!! I started to put more of an explanation in that post and decided to make it more cryptic instead. Then I went and “spoiled” without thinking about it.
There are sooooo many characters yet to come that I suspect you will have quite a few more before you get to the end. Some of them will stick around to the end, some will die, for some, their stories will kind of blow your mind. I love it.
Robin5507 @@@@@ 110
“I’m just happy to know Quick Ben will be around until the last boo..”
Sorry if I “spoiled” that for you!!!!”
Hey, the great thing about these books though (or perhaps the not-so-great-thing depending on one’s view) is just because you let slip Quick Ben is around in the last book doesn’t mean he doesn’t die once or twice before then :)
Bill @111
Now THAT is a red herring the size of a whale…*ggg*
Robin& Billcap:
I’m happy to know someone has longevity! No problem letting that slip. And you’re right, people seem to change form, die, ascend, etc. We do know QB has many layers and “personalities”! Just nice to have some sort of continuum.
Tektonica@30
Question: Somewhere it was mentioned that House Shadow had disappeared from the deck or had just appeared 10 years ago or reappeared, when K & D ascended. So where was it before appearing/reappearing. Who occupied the Throne before and what happened to them? Do we ever find this out and do we need to know this?
Having read only up to the fourth book (and comments are getting too spoilery even for me) I don’t have the whole picture, but Shadowthrone may not mean Throne *of* Shadow ;)
Think about it (better give hints and elements to consider than spoiler).
While book 3 gives the “whole picture”, it’s book four that wraps up a number of shady things. Book 4 is packed with big revelations all given in a kind of subdued way. The more you pay attention, the more it is revealed.
—
About the Deck of Dragons: a lot of misunderstanding about how these work is due to the fact that the whole belief/magic system is taken and analyzed by everyone as a “fantasy” thing with its self-referential and whimsical rules. When instead it draws subtly from anthropology and various other elements of “our” world.
Book 4 is again surprisingly revelatory in a passage between Trull and Onrack (some of the best dialogues in the series, for humor, friendship and depth).
@Amanda
Oh interesting—it sounds as though Sorry is in the game purely to neutralise the Oponn players; this section mentions the fact that she killed Paran and the un-named garrotted Claw Leader in Pale.
Nope, don’t forget that the whole story began in Itko Kan at the beginning of the book. Sorry is in the game to be with the Bridgeburners in a moment when a rebellion against the Malazan empire is about to begin.
Remember that Sorry became aware of Oponn (and Crokus) only when she was following Kruppe. Chapter eleven:
So, she’d found Oponn’s man – as easily as that. And he was connected to Kruppe, somehow. This was almost too simple. It made her suspicious.
She happened to be there next to Crokus when he dropped the Oponn coin, and the coin started spinning till it “faced” Sorry. That’s the moment when Sorry became aware of Oponn/Crokus. And remember from the meeting between Caladan Brood and Crone that even Anomander Rake would never miss the opportunity to take out Oponn. So from the moment Sorry becomes aware of Oponn, Oponn becomes a priority. But it was not a priority before.
—
I also particularly enjoyed the way Erikson continues to creatively switch PoVs, not in the action scenes,but at the beginning where Kruppe visits Mammot and halfway through Kruppe senses something magical. The following PoV we have Crone and Baruk and at the very end we see what just happened in the previous PoV. Just splendidly woven and playing with the timeline as he did with the Malazan/road repairs. And it also shows that there’s no obfuscation for the sake of it, often mysteries are revealed right in the following PoV creating a great pacing and satisfaction (instead of constant frustration, as in a show like “Lost”).
@@@@@ 30. Tektonica
“Question: Somewhere it was mentioned that House Shadow had disappeared from the deck or had just appeared 10 years ago or reappeared, when K & D ascended. So where was it before appearing/ reappearing. Who occupied the Throne before and what happened to them? Do we ever find this out and do we need to know this?”
If you look at the Glossary in the back of the book under The Deck of Dragons, (I am huge on Glossaries and do not consider anything in a Glossary as a spoiler), you will see that the five Houses (Life, Death, Light, Dark, and Shadow (collectively known throughout the series as the High Houses)), each contain positions of King and Queen. After the King and Queen, the remaining positions will differ somewhat from House to House depending on the specific needs of the House.
If you have a King and Queen, it stands to reason that there would be a throne. It also stands to reason that a King/Queen position would be a power position in each respective House. Keep in mind that, as with all things Erickson/Malazan, the “royal hierarchy” that you are accustomed to in fantasy, is not necessarily the same here. A lack of a King/Queen, does not revert the House to an Empire, or a Democracy, or a Dictatorship, etc.. It just means that the Throne is not currently a filled position.
My take is that there is a throne for each of these five High Houses, upon which would sit the King and/or Queen, if that position is currently filled. At times, that position is simply vacant. If the position of King and/or Queen is vacant, the throne is empty. The House continues to exist, just with an empty throne, until such time as a King or Queen comes forward to claim it. A “filled” throne is not necessary for the existance of the House.
House Shadow did not truly “disappear” for any period of time. It was always there. However, at times, for various reasons, the throne and or other positions of a particular house may be unoccupied. This happened with the House of Shadow for a period of time. All the positions were unoccupied, thus the House was “inactive” if you will. The warren was still active and being used, there were still mages of Meanas, there simply were no positions in the Deck filled so it was inactive as far as the Deck was concerned.
Take High House Dark for example. According to the Glossary, the positions of King and Queen are currently vacant (indicating that the Throne is empty). We know that Rake is the Knight of High House Dark. We know that High House Dark is active (I believe it was revealed in Tattersail’s reading earlier in the book, as well as the fact that we know Rake is active as the Knight, and we know that the Tiste Andii are using the magic of their warren). Thus, High House Dark is currently active in the Deck, even though the throne is empty. Thus, one could deduce that somewhere out there (location unknown or “hidden” if you will), there is an empty Throne to High House Dark.
You will definitely see a lot more references to the various Thrones in later books in this series.
Hope this makes sense!
Thanks Abalieno and Robin. As I understand it, so far, the houses can have vacant “thrones” and/or positions, but do not disappear, just become inactive.
Whether Kellenved actually claimed the throne of House Shadow seems to be something Abalieno quesions, but that’s how I understood his position, with Cotillion/The Rope as ST’s Assassin. That is how it’s listed in the Glossary, fwiw.
(I tend to comb the glossary and maps for clues, as well.)
Tek @116
– Whether Kellenved actually claimed the throne of House Shadow seems to be something Abalieno quesions, but that’s how I understood his position –
Basically he did, even though that will turn out…ambiguous, for a change ^^. Not him sitting on that throne, but what it actually controles, or not, as compared to other Houses.
@115
An astute analysis but I don’t think we can say that a position is unoccupied just because the occupant wasn’t listed in the glossary. Just a quick glance at the GOTM glossary shows no one listed as Herald of Death, soldier of Death, Champion of Light, or Magi of Shadow, even though those are all filled.
Another thing about the Deck – it seems that the lower ranked cards can move around from person to person, or even many people at once, rather than being fixed to a particular ascendant.
Robin @115:
That’s an excellent point. Huuuge spoiler below:
I have a suspicion that part of the final resolution of the series would involve discovery and occupation of the throne of High House Dark. It would resolve the cycle that started with the friction between the brothers and the civil war leading to the destruction Karkannas, the turning away of Mother Dark, the journey of the surviving Andii to the Malaz world, and Rake’s attempt to revive the Andii’s spirit and bring back MD to care for her children. Much of Toll the Hounds and Dust of Dreams are devoted to that story line.
The importance of this seemingly innocuous point (empty throne in HHD) is developed very very slowly and is not apparent until perhaps Book 8.
@@@@@ 118. MDW
“An astute analysis but I don’t think we can say that a position is unoccupied just because the occupant wasn’t listed in the glossary.”
True. It simply means that (most likely) that position is either vacant or that it has no relevance to that particular book.
The Glossary is updated in further books as certain positions are vacated, filled, changed, etc.
Great articels. I really enjoy reading them. Unfortunatly it takes me about a week to get through all the comments, so there’s no time left to write some comments myself.
But this time I thought to add something before finish reading the comments.
About the pronounciation of K’rul. I always read it as Kerul, because of the apostrophe. The same way I read T’lan as Telan, which fits concerning their Warren.
Spoiler for MoI
And with Kerul it makes perfect sense, when we get to know Keruli in MoI
I don’t know that it should be pronounced Kerul with the e sounding (as in bed).It seems to me, based on the use of the apostrophe, that the name is supposed to be pronounced starting with the Ke but without the e sounding, then add the rul: K pause rul.
I always read it as in:
swallow the K; speaking it as choking on it
and then the rul…
Man am I glad not to be a follower of K’rul…
Rotzlucky @121:
At least in this re-read it’s possible to actually read all the comments and follow the discussion. On the WoT forum, on the other hand, it’s close to impossible (close to 300 comments in 4 days!)
I’m wondering, who did recognize who’s the Eel on a first read before the actual revelation?
Abalieno@125:
I had a few suspicions…..should I get the book out and find them?
Part of it was his disingenuousness….his connections to pretty much everyone, Mammot, Baruk, Crocus, Nom, Murillio….he was the fence…he was at the corner table in the Phoenix….he had prophetic dreams, so I assumed he was a mage of some sort. He was smart and was someone everyone went to for information….even though it took awhile to cut through his gibberish. He was pretty obviously hiding something in plain sight.
Of course my” suspicion-o-meter” is set on “hair trigger”, thanks to all the warnings about the convoluted plots and characters of Steven Ericson……
And I thank you all for that!
Just wanted to mention an “in general” comment relative to this series as a whole.
I am someone who when I read I love for the characters to be written in such a way that they really suck me into the storyline.
I don’t believe there was any point in GoTM that I cried. However, with the remaining books, there are sections where I cry like a baby. Sometimes to the point that I have to put the book down for a bit because I cannot see the words. (What a sap, I know.)
I’m currently doing a reread of MoI. For all those who have already read it, you know that means numerous pauses for me. :-)
Just thought I would warn all the souls out there who get into the story that deeply. Be prepared when you get past GotM. !!!
Abalieno@125:
I never caught it on my first read (but then, I’m usually missing such clues). On this re-read, it’s very interesting to spot all the little hints that Erikson leaves here and there. The most telling was when I’ve noticed the exchange between Rallick and Murillio about the: “He’s a slippery one” – “Yes, he’s the slippery one”.
You can’t afford to miss a single word when reading Erikson :-)
@@@@@ everyone discussing Kruppe’s dreams about 20 posts ago
Maybe I’m being very thick here, but have we ever seen Kruppe actually use magic? Even when he has his donkey charge with the other crazy narrator in the book (one of my favourite scenes) I don’t remember IP mentioning anything about warrens?
@129
We’ll see Kruppe attempt to use magic in the next section of the re-read. I think there may be more little tidbits here and there.
Now, as to whether or not his dreamscape qualifies as ‘magic’ or not–I’d vote for its being magic. Whether the magic is based out of his own personal warren or some mental ability or something else, remains open for debate.
Abalieno@125:
I think it was the “He’s a slippery one”, comment that cemented my suspicion on the first read.
For the pronunciation of K’rul, I usually think Ke Rool with the e as in bed followed by a brief stop and then Rul. I think that the ‘ usually indicates a glottal stop.
Soloce @@@@@ 129
Maybe I’m being very thick here, but have we ever seen Kruppe actually use magic?
—
The scene with Kruppe walking down the street stealing all the food is the first thing I can think of in this book showing him using magic. He uses magic several times in the books, but never in a big explosivey kind of way like most others. And of course the scene in MOI between him and Brood, while Kruppe technically doesn’t do anything other than just stand there…
Robin55077@115:
Good analysis, although as with everything I don’t think the glossary indicating a particular slot as filled or not should be taken as 100% accurate.
Abalieno@125
I’m wondering, who did recognize who’s the Eel on a first read before the actual revelation?
—
I figured it out on my first read with the whole “slippery one” statement. I remember feeling so proud that after not having a clue for so long about what was going on I finally figured something out.
@@@@@ 134. shalter
“Good analysis, although as with everything I don’t think the glossary indicating a particular slot as filled or not should be taken as 100% accurate.”
Thanks! In my post @@@@@120, I included the statement that such lack of indication in the glossary could also simply mean that the position had no particular relevance to the current book.
Re: Kruppe’s magic
In addition to the market scene, there is a scene coming up where Kruppe uses magic to suppress the memory of someone who figured out he was the Eel. The dreamscape plus his general policy of misdirection, manipulation, and knowing more than he should convince me that Kruppe is a master of Mockra. His convoluted speaking style is to lull and distract you from his mental prodding.
Re: When did you realize Kruppe was the Eel?
I honestly don’t remember. The problem with rereading something like this is that I am on the lookout for clues the second time through and that overwrites my memory of whether I noticed them the first time through.
Re: Pronouncing K’Rul
I always used K-pause-rull (a soft u as in scull).
Abalieno@125:
I’m wondering, who did recognize who’s the Eel on a first read before the actual revelation?
Like some others, I did. :)
Not sure what made me think about it though. Maybe the ‘slippery’ comment, but probably Kruppe’s sense of drama, and how he employs it all the time…
Me@130:
I see there are references to Kruppe using magic (in the ‘normal’ fashion) in a few places. We’ll see one such coming up in the next chapters. I had forgotten about these–rereads are good :-)
@@@@@ 138. Fiddler & Abalieno@@@@@125:
Like Fiddler, I don’t recall exactly when I knew (or first suspected) but it was before the “slippery” comment. For me it came as an awareness that slowly crept up on me through Kruppe’s apparent knowledge of “everything,” his talking in riddles, etc., all I guess added to the fact that he seemed to be “friends” with an Elder God. I remember thinking, if it’s not Kruppe, who else could it possibly be?
I’m surprised none of the veterans have pointed out that one of the poems for this week was written by someone named “Blind Gallan”. (He also has another poem coming up in Chapter 18.)
Given what we learn in DoD, having a poet with this name (and with a birthdate that puts him under 100 years old at this point) is rather jarring. Probably just a “repurposing” of the name, given that we won’t see it again until DoD.
@141
Cripes, Salt – a direct snippet link from GotM to DoD ?? That´s 8000 pages apart !! You really DO wanna mess with my head, do ya ?! ;0)
What page in DoD, BTW ?
@@@@@ 141.Salt-Man Z
The Gallan mentioned in DoD refers to Kurald Galain. So unless the warren of darkness has a sideline in poetry…
I’m impressed you noticed this. I seem to have a great capacity to miss most of the subtlety in this series. It’s because I read each book as it came out and I read too fast that I’ve really struggled to piece the whole thing together.
This re-read is a God-send. Reading GotM for the first time in 10 years with some idea as to what is going on is a real joy.
K’Rul. Every time I read that I can’t help but think of Matthew McConaughey in How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days when he puts on the really deep voice “Krull the warrior king!” So it’s always krull for me. Just cannot!!! get that out of my head.
@144
Since we keep calling SE´s style *cinematographic* -> the guy definitely MUST be into Quentin Tarantino…and he definitely, like QT, MUST know his B-movie trash…! *gg*
And if the whole *Silanda*-episode isn´t a 100% hommage to *Pulp Fiction*, then I bite my arse….
Ok, how does the Silanda relate to Pulp Fiction?
@146
– SPOILER _
Look purely at the chronology of events on the Silanda and how twistedly it is presented from DG over HoC to MT to give you the complete picture. Almost identical to the way Pulp Fiction was structured.
idlefun @143:
Are you sure? I read DoD months ago and have no wish to re-read it, but I definitely thought the Blind Gallan the Queen and Derrig “spoke” to was a seer, not the warren itself.
Gallan is a person, poet. He gouged out his eyes, hence he’s Blind Gallan. He was (among other things) tasked with creating the Road the Shake/Watch to return to Kharkhanas.
@148 & 149.
Just goes to show I wasn’t lying about my ability to miss stuff. Is then the ‘Road to Gallan’ they mention their name for Kurald Galain?
Actually, don’t answer, no sense getting too far ahead of ourselves.
Salt@141
Wait we are supposed to read the poems?!?!? ;) I must admit that this is the only reread where I tried really hard to read the poems at the chapter starts and link them to people and what was happening in the story. The poems are probably the thing I have the most problem with in the whole series (I don’t like poems).
It’s only been a few months since I finished DoD, which may be why the name “Blind Gallan” jumped out at me, but it’s also an important part of a fairly pivotal scene in DoD (and of a major plotline in TCG, if the preview synopsis is any indication.)
WARNING: DoD subject matter ahead! Though any spoilers will be entirely out-of-context (and therefore probably meaningless) for newbies.
The “Road to Gallan” seemed to me an allusion to Kurald Galain (and perhaps Kharkanas itself) but “Blind Gallan” was a poet. A Tiste Andii, if I recall.
The problem is that in GotM we get poems from Blind Gallan (born 1078, roughly 90 years ago) regarding Darujhistan. But in DoD, unless I misremember, he’s around in old-timey Kharkanas. We’re talking hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. I don’t remember if DoD mentions his fate, or if there’s a chance he wound up living out his days on Genebackis as a poet millenia later…?
Of course, long-time readers are already familiar with another long-lived poet hanging around Darujhistan…
Salt @152
Well, instead of blowing my brain to shreds, I´ve decided to take certain things in GotM with a grain of salt. …mindye, I am not yelling *shenaniGotM-isms*, just a little sodiumchloride… ;0) *g*
Two more questions.
Is there any other mention of the Seer resurfacing into Sorry?
Does anyone remembers if it’s revealed the reason why Coll speaks about the five dragons?
I just want to know if there are revealed later on.
@154:
I think that’s the last we see of the Seer — from when Sorry and Rigga are linked:
So, Sorry is the last to hear from her and Rigga is just there to shield her during her possession. Note the last part of the quote. We can talk about that later today.
@154:
I don’t recall that Coll and the dragons comes up again.
(Edit — of course Dragons come up again and again and …)
Abalieno @154:
I’m sure Erikson used Coll’s comment simply as a means to inform the reader that there are dragons living on Moon’s Spawn. Why? Because those dragons are going to enter the action later in this book.
Abalieno@154: It demonstrates Coll is educated (or at least well-informed) when he’s not busy drinking himself to death…
I think there’s more that meets the eye about both.
Rigga tells Sorry that she’ll protect her from the possession. Sorry takes a candle before she’s possessed and the candles were used by the seer to trap souls. I always thought that something of Rigga’s consciousness seeped into Sorry and lingered there.
I just don’t remember if this is brought up again. In this chapter Sorry has some weird reaction to the word “seer”, so it means something.
Same for Coll. There are probably some motives that explain why Coll has that piece of information, but no idea about where more hints may be given. Maybe he was sharing Mammot mission.
I answer myself, shall other re-readers arrive later.
The Seer presence in Sorry was definitely not an hoax. It was subtle the way the seer used the candle, along some odd reactions of Sorry. I was always convinced that she wasn’t just possessed by Cotillion, but also the Seer was in there, somewhere.
So we get this follow up in Chapter 22.
dunno if these ‘old’ comments are still read by anyone, but I wanted to add some info
re QB and the shape-shifting thing.
——MoI spoiler ahead——-
1) could be QB disguised himself /w meanas
2) could be QB changed the body in raraku (although i doubt that given the circumstances)
3) in MoI, as WJ tells the story of the BB in Raraku, one of the mages/persons QB ‘assimilates’ is “Ullan, the Soletaken priestess of Soliel.” So, maybe this ability has switched over to QB too, given that is a magic-related one?
In the name of Shadowthrone, these pages are really blowing me away now. The book is getting better and better.
Well, I did not really figure out, that Kruppe is actually the Eel. Maybe there was nudging something deep inside in my head, to point that out, but as I said, I did not actually get it so far. But of course, I should have cought it and be aware of it when the phrase “He’s the slippery one” appeared. Well, one can not catch always everything, can one:-)?
The scenes on the rooftops were just great. Then how Kalam deals with some of the Tiste Andii, obviously so mighty creatures. Impressing. And the scene where Pearl appears. A Demon who can level a city if it wishes so. A demon who has obviously almost pitty for three Tiste Andii Mage Assasins daring to face here in battle. And then, comes the Lord of the Moon, the Son of Darkness…., and it starts just suddenly having pitty for itself. It almost broke my heart there, when it asked Quick Ben if he had pitty for it. Well, I felt pitty for her too then, a lot. And it just shows so perfectly well how powerful that Anomander Rake actually is. And I’m wondering even more now, what the hell is he involving himself in this whole thing for? Does he just like to mess around in the world of the mortals? Just out of fun?
And I ask myself too, how powerful would Mr. Rake be if it weren’t for his Sword Dragnipur? Would he have been capable to finish Pearl as easily as he did without that horrible sword of his? I’m wondering really about that.
And then another thought crossed my mind now. Seeing, as there are obviously several dragons on Moons Spawn. Why the hell did Anamonder not let them loose at the siege of Pale? Wouldn’t they have been a great help in the fight against the Mages? Wouldn’t they have blown the mages away? Well, may be there is a good reason for it, but it does not seem to make a lot of sense to me right now. Holding them back, seeing as his Moon is getting so much damage in that battle.
Does anyone have any idea about these thoughts of mine? If someone is still reading this? I would be happy for some shared thoughts.
Al.
@al
Anomander Rake is fairly enigmatic at this point. A lot of his deeper motivations are not revealed until later in the series, especially in Memories of Ice. Why the hell is he doing this? I’m afraid that really is Read And Find Out ;)
As for how powerful he is … just keep in the back of your mind that he had to defeat the original creator of Dragnipur to get the sword in the first place. Again, you’ll see more of just what unveiling his full strength does later in the book.
The Siege of Pale is an interesting case … mostly I think he didn’t unleash the dragons because he didn’t need them or want them harmed … he and he alone was all that was needed to counter the Malazan mages … at least long enough until treachery forced his hand away and the Malazans betrayed each other.
Hy, thank you Mayem for your thoughts.
Yes, of course I have no idea, how he got that sword. Well if he defeated a very powerful beeing wielding that sword, while he had none, in a fair, direct battle, well, then I guess he is also a very powerful guy without that sword :-)
Concerning the Siege of Pale. Well, that my be an explanation, may be there were other reasons. We’l probably never know, or may be we’l ask S. Erikson? :-)
But it’s really interessting, to think about these things. And discuss them.
Thank you again.
AL
I was always worried that this series was going to be a tough read and I was right but it’s a very rewarding read. While I am at times frustrated with my own lack of understanding of what the hell is going on, mostly due to SE’s more arcane terminology and the layers within layers within layers and intrigue that play out sentence by sentence, word by word, and manifest themesleves through such minor ways as the wording, GoTM has proven to be a very pleasant, entertaining experience. Even if I don’t get all the hints and references, I love the characterization and the pacing and the sheer exhilaration of watching an epic plot playing out.