A Read of Ice and Fire: A Game of Thrones, Part 6

Leigh, try to see things from Catelyn’s perspective. She’s in an arranged marriage (made at the time for political reasons) with a guy she eventually came to love. He’s super honorable, way more so than a lot of purportedly-honorable men in this cruel world. And yet, the one area where he’s unable to maintain his honor is in fathering a bastard while away on campaign. Then, instead of having the “decency” to quietly provide for the child’s needs while ensconsing him elsewhere out of sight, Ned brings him home! Ned being so honor-bound to support the child but not honor-bound enough to stop shaming Catelyn with him must feel like a slap in the face, and one directed pointedly at Cat, and Cat alone. At a whole heaping spoonful of grief and fear of loss and its a recipe for some really awful things to be said.

It’s not her finest moment in the series. It’s arguably just the opposite. But I can at least understand where she’s coming from.

I’ve always been in two minds about the wedding night scene. On the one hand, it’s an important and moving character moment. And I would rather Dany be happy in her marriage. But on the other hand. . .she’s 13. I know thirteen-year-olds got married in medieval societies. Depicting it isn’t really the issue. But making the scene so sexy–it raises the specter of child porn. Not in a really horrible anime-ish way, because when reading it’s really hard to remember than Dany isn’t 16-17, which is a lot less disturbing. But when you stop to think about it. . .it’s hard to find it sexy without feeling gross. And yet it is sexy.

And then HBO solves the age problem but ruins the scene anyway! Grrr.

@litg I think something people always forget about the whole Jon-Catelyn-Ned situation is that in that sort of political marriage, Ned is contracting that Catelyn will be the mother of his heirs and join their families. It’s not a romance, it’s an alliance. And she gets pregnant and has a son right away – so she must have thought Ned would be thrilled! She’s doing her part perfectly! Instead, she gets back to Winterfell and Ned’s bastard – who is practically the same age as her legitimate son – is *already there*.

It’s massively disrespectful, not just to Catelyn as a person but to Catelyn as the mother of the Stark heirs, as a daughter of an allied family – it’s saying, “yeah, so, I know you’re my wife, but here’s this kid. I may or may not have a rush of blood to the head one day and ask my best friend the King to legitimise him. You don’t know that I won’t, because I won’t talk about him, or his mother. Who might have been someone as noble as you – rumour suggests that, anyway. But just trust me, I respect you and my alliance with your family!”

Jon isn’t just the symbol of Ned’s infidelity – Catelyn is pretty blase about the prospect of Ned having slept around while at war – he’s a symbol of Ned privileging the product of that infidelity along with his legitimate heir. It’s not so much about Catelyn’s feelings as a woman so much as her responsibilities as a noblewoman and symbol of alliance between two families.

Now, sure, Catelyn put that on Jon, not Ned, the guy who was responsible. But that’s….pretty damn human, actually; Ned’s her husband, the father of her children, she loves him. Blaming him would sour her marriage, which is also, in this world, her career. Blaming Jon…blaming Jon is easy, and expected. Catelyn deserves way less flack for it than she gets.

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this to you yet Leigh and @14, but you have to mentally add three years to every child character’s age in the series. Apparently Martin had never met any actual children, so he was very confused about what they are like at different ages, and you wind up with ridiculous stuff like boys winning melee tournaments at 14, and 8 year old girls dueling soldiers. I’m pretty sure Martin even admitted as much, and said that if he were to do the series over he would up all the ages.

I don’t know what you people want. How could you possibly have done the consumation scene right in the show. You would have to spend at least 15 to 20 minutes for that scene alone to not make it look ridiculous. “Oh no, i’m so scared. OTOH he looks kind of hot. Oh, what the hell, lets do it.” Spend too little time and the average viewer would exactly this impression. Spend more time and you get a nice and long softcore porn thread on every discussion board. There is no way they could have done it better.

Ah, Catelyn…I always want to like her, and then I just kind of…don’t. All of her “Oh I’m a mom and it’s soooooo hard” nonsense. I’m pretty hard and judgmental on that aspect of her, I guess, and I’m ok with it. I know I’m not a mom, and that I would completely react differently to her situations if I were, but as a young single reader, I can’t help but be annoyed by her single-mindedness and bouts of self-pity. Again and again she makes some pretty bad, not-well-thought-out decisions in the name of caring for her children, which even THEY think are kind of stupid, as several people have addressed.

Interestingly, it is this skewed “strong mother” image that I dislike about Cersei, even while I kind of like her as a character. I certainly have more sympathy for her, and that aspect of her is hardly her entire character, whereas that’s pretty much all Cat is capable of doing, being a mom. Maybe it’s Martin’s presentation of motherhood that I take issue with, or just Cat’s all-consiming “momness”. I’d like to see her with more to do than be a mom, with thoughts other than that of her children and husband.

“It should have been you”…Damn, thats cold Cat! I mean it would have been bad enough to spit that out when he was at the bed trying to engage her, BUT HE WAS LEAVING…and she STOPPED him just to say that!! Thats something deeper than grief, thats just foul. In that one line GRRM encapsulates Jon’s life at Winterfell. Thats the moment you truly understand what Jon’s bastardy feels like, i mean you feel the sting of her words visceraly in that moment, I was Jon Snow in that moment because i felt it too. Why did we have to stop? We should have kept on walking.

As I mentioned before, I like Cat because she’s such a unique character to include in a story like this. As I also said, when I was younger, a lot of my contemporaries had a lot of issues with Cat for having such a motherly POV and certain actions she commits really turned them off her. I have to admit that hers is a POV I don’t easily identify with — It’s a lot easier to put yourself in Arya or Jon’s shoes than it is to put yourself in Cat’s, especially when you’re young.

But she’s a brilliant POV, a person who, I suspect, was once a lot like Sansa, (so we get to compare and contrast between her and her daughter in many ways as the story progresses), but has grown into her own place as Mistress of Winterfell and mother to five children. I think it’s a great thing for GRRM to have brought her POV to the fore where most of the time, she’d be in the background.

Isilel @@@@@ 55:

I think you don’t really give enough value to the advantages Jon had at Winterfell. The close bond to his siblings and his father. Instruction by Ned, probably one of the best generals in Westeros, and the best master-at-arms and men-at-arms the Starks could find. Instruction by Maester Luwin, probably one of the best Maesters of the Citadel. A few things might have been better elsewhere, foremost a kinder mother figure, but I think the advantages Jon had at Winterfell are greater. Which is one of the reasons why Ned and his mother probably wanted him to be raised in this fashion. I also fail to see why Jon couldn’t have married because he was brought up at Winterfell.

Ned wasn’t exclusively raised in the Vale by the way. He was raised at Winterfell before he was fostered with Jon Arryn. Ned also visited his family at Winterfell while he was fostered. So I think it’s fair to say that Ned’s father had a fair amount of influence on Ned just as Jon Arryn had.

As to Jon’s chances of successfully usurping Cat’s children’s rights being enhanced by being favored by his father, I wouldn’t say this is generally dismissed entirely. There is certainly some merit to it as I’ve stated.

A more thorough evaluation has to take into account other factors which can’t perhaps be expected from a (young) woman in Catelyn’s position, who is undoubtedly biased to some degree. Of course she is going to rationalize her attempts to send Jon away as nothing more than her duty to protect her children and not a combination of this and her way to deal with the presence of the constant reminder of her husband’s infidelity and love for another woman. Cat isn’t completely wrong that Jon being raised at Winterfell poses some risks. But neither should readers be uncritical of her conclusions and motives to the point where they fail to see the real benefits of Jon being raised as a loyal friend to Cat’s children at Winterfell.

With regard to Jon being treated the same as her children, we have GRRM explicitly stating that Cat made sure that this wasn’t the case when matters of their respective status’ were involved like the feast we saw in AGoT. So while Jon was usually treated the same as his siblings, he was clearly treated differently in more official matters, making it clear to Ned’s vassals who Ned’s heir was. Any alleged confusion on this matter isn’t found in the text.

As to Ned not really having Jon’s interests at heart, I don’t think Ned not having any known plans for Jon before he joined the NW or him letting Jon join the NW really lend themselves to your interpretation. For all we know Ned may very well have had plans to give Jon some holdfast when Jon was old enough to rule it.

And we know that Ned was against Jon joining the NW at his age. It were Cat and Luwin who persuaded him, suggesting that Jon’s path wouldn’t be harder than others’. Besides, the NW was good enough for Benjen and many other Starks and Ned was hopeful that Jon could rise high in the NW despite his bastardy. So I don’t think that Ned was really unconcerned with Jon’s interests.

As to apportioning blame for Jon’s circumstances, I would agree that some readers are too critical about Cat’s role. She was undeservedly forced to handle a difficult situation when she was just a young woman. She didn’t dishonour herself and fullfilled her obligations to her family and her husband. But neither can she be commended for her handling of it. Living and interacting with Jon for 14 years without to call him by his name even once also goes beyond her obligations to her children. This wasn’t merely a result of aggressively securing the future of her children but of a deep personal hurt inflicted upon her by her husband.

As I stated earlier, I think Ned was put in a situation where he was going to be unfair to somebody whatever he would have done with Jon. He chose Jon’s (perceived) well-being and the wishes of Jon’s mother over his new wife’s wishes and also burdened his own life somewhat.

When I think about what Ned should have done differently with Jon and Cat I think it was unwise to frighten Cat and let her wounds fester when she asked about Jon’s mother. It might have been wiser if he would have reassured Cat somehow about their marriage, their future as a couple and the prospects of their children together. Perhaps he should have made up some tale if the truth wouldn’t have served for one reason or another.

If Cat would have been more sure of Ned’s affection and loyalty towards her and her children from the start she might have found it within herself to be kinder to Jon and to protect the rights of her children by assuring that Jon would be a loyal and valuable asset to them.

sarcastro @59:

I was actually aware that Cat had stayed silent. Since Luwin did the active persuading it would be unfair to say that Cat pressured Ned to send Jon to the NW but in a way, one might also say that Cat keeping her tongue was actually her passive way of ensuring that Jon actually joined the NW. She really wanted it but also knew that if she spoke up in favor of it Ned might be inclined to dismiss the idea because it came from her and concerned Jon. So she certainly played her own part in Ned’s decision beyond refusing to have Jon at Winterfell, even if only a passive one.

Regarding “a gown made from a thousand mouse skins”, IIRC that was taken straight from the Huns. They might have been jerboas. Small field rodents of some kind, anyway. I can’t imagine what fiddly work it must be to tan and sew together all those tiny hides, but such garments were quite real.

Isilel @64:

While it’s conjecture at this point I do think it’s more likely than not that Jon being raised at Winterfell by Ned is what Jon’s mother wanted. Jon joining the NW is a different matter alltogether.

While Jon marrying and having kids might have led to its own problems I still don’t see why being raised at Winterfell would necessarily have prevented Jon from marrying. It would have been perfectly reasonable for Ned to arrange a marriage of Jon with some lesser nobility and give him some holdfast to rule somewhere in the North. Jon didn’t have to stick around at Winterfell forever.

Though I think you also exaggerate the problems which Jon and his children still being around at Winterfell would cause. In particular when it were to become clear to the families of his brothers’ wives that Jon is an able ally who is loyal to his siblings and when Jon marries somebody who is politically insignificant. I don’t really think that the children of a bastard and Jeyne Poole for instance would be seen as political rivals by Mace Tyrell or Tywin or Doran Martell. The wives might even have been glad that Jon is around to support their husbands and children if Jon would have remained at Winterfell.

While I can well see that some bastards who were brought up with privileges might perhaps have felt demeaned if they would have been given some lesser lands to rule instead of great castles I don’t think this applies to Jon. When we meet him he felt that he had no rights or prospects for the future — to the point where he wanted to join the NW to make something of himself. So Ned giving Jon some lands to rule might well have been an improvement and a pleasant surprise for Jon.

And while Jon may have dreamed of being Ned’s heir this doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have been happy with less either given his very low expectations. When we first meet Jon he even volunteers to forego a pet of his own so that his siblings can have theirs’. This isn’t the action of somebody who couldn’t be content with lesser lands just because he was raised together with his father and siblings.

On the other hand, if Jon would have been raised elsewhere he mightn’t have been as loyal to his siblings and as capable as an ally to them when one thinks that being trained and instructed by Ned, Luwin and other picked instructors at Winterfell was very likely a better education than Jon would have received anywhere else Ned could reasonably have sent Jon.

In any case, for all the real, potential and perceived advantages of Jon being raised elsewhere some readers come up with I still think there existed greater advantages of Jon being raised at Winterfell with Ned and his siblings. Though admittedly more for Jon than for Cat.

I will say that I would like to learn of Ned’s plans for Jon before he let Jon join the NW. Though just because we haven’t yet learnt of them doesn’t mean that none existed. Perhaps Ned genuinely believed that the NW — and eventually becoming a high officer or commander — wasn’t a worse career choice for Jon than being a lesser lordling would have been when Jon actually wanted it. The Starks clearly have a better opinion of the merits of joining the NW than others in Westeros — or some readers — justified or not.

I will agree that readers should beware of following their sympathies when critically evaluating the choices of characters. Though I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that many people think this sort of advice is more appropriate to others than themselves. ;)

@@@@@ 65. ValVar

Some of the thinking here has been rather naive. Things might have worked out for the best- Jon is a good guy and/or he might not have had an opportunity to cause trouble for Cat’s children. But in the context of the Westeros society it is clear why Cat would’ve seen Jon as a threat with the kind of upbringing he had.

Jon has turned out to be a good guy, yes. That’s sort of the reason why Ned had made a good decision not only for Jon but for Cat’s children too when he raised Jon at Winterfell. Ned’s paternal influence and Jon’s close bonds to Cat’s children are the very reason why Jon has become less of a threat than he might have become if he would have been raised elsewhere.

What do we think the bastards who tried to usurp their siblings thought about the righteousness of it? What did they care about righteousness in the first place? What kind of relation did they have to the siblings they tried to usurp and probably murder?

Ned couldn’t change Jon’s blood which made him a potential threat in the first place. Ned also wouldn’t have been expected to deny Jon a reasonable education somewhere else — reading, writing, martial skills, etiquette, etc — which _already_ would have made Jon’s personal characteristics somewhat acceptable to become an overlord to the nobility of the North except from his bastardy. But what Ned could and did heavily influence was that Jon turned into the sort of person who simply wouldn’t usurp the rights of his siblings because it would be wrong and because he cared for them.

Mind, I’m not saying that Jon was guaranteed to become a good guy at Winterfell — and if he wouldn’t have become one he would have been a greater danger than if he would have been raised elsewhere for the reasons which habe been put forward — but the actual chances of Jon becoming a good person who also cares for his siblings was surely much greater at Winterfell.

That’s something Cat has great trouble recognizing, possibly because it would mean that she had to admit to herself that Ned’s son with another woman is a decent boy who wasn’t much of a real threat, which in turn would have made it much more difficult to justify treating him as she did and to continue to try to send him away.

Cat isn’t a cruel or even unkind woman by nature. She simply needed a less self serving reason to treat Jon as she did than her hurt feelings. So she exaggerated a somewhat legitimate and less self serving reason beyond what is reasonable. It happens all the time.

@@@@@ 73. ValMar:

I didn’t think you were only adressing Cat’s reaction to Jon at Bran’s bed.

As to Jon having a negative effect on Robb’s authority, well, not any more than any similarly competent legitimate brother would have had. Probably less even, because a legitimate brother would have had a higher status than a bastard. Most Westerosi nobles are more likely to take trueborn advice and commands than bastard ones.

In any case, I don’t see many people including Cat fearing Bran’s or Rickon’s eventual effect on Robb’s authority or the threat they pose to Robb. And _they_ actually have a legal claim to Winterfell and certain rights which Jon clearly doesn’t have as long as he is a bastard. Besides, while Jon is competent it’s not as if Robb weren’t competent himself.

Moreover, whatever one may think about Robb’s authority with Jon around, having a competent and trustworthy ally can also be a great benefit in times of turmoil. I’m sure Westerosi history has its fair share of bastards who were valuable allies of their trueborn siblings/relatives. The more likely when there were close ties between the bastard and his legitimate relatives, the less likely when the bastard could hardly care less about them. So Ned’s approach to let Jon become close to his siblings looks quite sensible in this regard.

@@@@@ Isilel 76:

I think you’re misrepresenting or not penetrating which circumstances led to noble bastards becoming threats in the past of Westeros. I won’t go into more detail because this would be spoilerish except to say that there are very great differences between Jon’s status at Winterfell and the way Ned raised him on the one hand, and the specific case(s) you’re probably thinking of on the other.

I will also disagree with you as to the reasons why bastards are usually not raised with their legitimate siblings. A significant part of the reason concerns the feelings of the wronged wife and more importantly her family. When marriages are mostly arranged political alliances then not offending the bride’s family just for the sake of some bastard child would be seen as the sensible way to act by most in this society.

In this regard it’s noteworthy that female bastards don’t seem to be treated differently than male ones although the male ones would seem to be a far greater threat. I would suggest that this can be best explained when the main reason for letting bastards be raised elsewhere is to not offend the wives and their families.

That’s not to say that some don’t feel that raising bastards elsewhere may also serve to protect the rights of the legitimate children. But I daresay that if not for not wanting to burden one’s marriage and offending one’s wife and her family many more noble fathers with bastards would probably find it preferable to raise them themselves, and not least because that way they could prevent that their bastards are exposed to bad, unmonitored influences and no feeling for their siblings which in turn could make them truly dangerous.

I will further say that I’ve yet to see anybody successfully refuting what seems common sense to me: That when you’ve a potential threat in a bastard and you don’t want to kill him or deny him at least a reasonable education then turning him into the sort of moral person who wouldn’t usurp the rights of his relatives because it would be criminal and evil and because he loves them is a much more effective way to ensure no usurping will take place than leaving it more to chance.

At least as long as some common sense is applied by the father to the whole situation, meaning that it wouldn’t have been a good idea for Ned to give the impression that Cat’s children may be bastards themselves and that Jon would be his preferred heir, to try to get Jon legitimated, to alienate Jon from his siblings, to exclude Robb from official business or to gift Jon with an ancestral status symbol like Ice for example.

If Ned would have acted in this fashion _then_ raising Jon at Winterfell would indeed have led to severe problems. However, he didn’t, so that there simply isn’t any meaningful confusion about Jon’s status.

In any case, you’re probably right that this discussion has run its course without to go into spoiler territory.

Egarcia,

I would have more sympathy for Cat’s point of view with regard to Jon and his potential descendants if Jon’s situation wouldn’t have been so very different from Daemon Blackfyre’s in crucial points. If Ned would have acted like Aegon IV. then I would’ve cheered Cat on instead of questioning her motives and reasoning.

*sigh* lots of thoughts on Cat vs. Jon here… just wanted to add something NOT that…
I loved the scene where Jon gives Arya the slender dagger called Needle.
I thought he is making an inside joke with her due to the fact that her in more female arts of sewing, needlepoints, etc, she compares herself so poorly to Sansa. But now she has a Needle just for her, for her personality, with which she may far outdistance her sister in talent. Anyhoo, just a little metaphorical joke, but I thought it was clever and so fitting in that warm moment between Jon and Arya. It really makes me hope that Jon and Arya will see each other again.