Welcome to the spoiler thread for the Memories of Light, the daily preview of the final volume of Robert Jordan’s epic Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light. Some memories may shed new light on long-held theories and all are sure to have many different interpretations. Join the discussion of their meaning on the Memories of Light spoiler thread below!
Peruse more theories on the other spoiler threads for the Memories of Light.
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Day 15. Cadsuane stating the obvious.
Well it’s nice to see this book will have some heart-stopping moments.
Also, I hope Sorilea will add the old Aiel saying “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach – if you are really short. Else strike between the third and fourth ribs on the left”
~lakesidey
Cadsuane in a sweat tent… a young hero walks in foolishly. Faints.
Moral of the story: Cad has a great rack
And here I thought Semirhage was the one with a great rack. Not to mention she practically invented thumbscrews.
Old Chinese saying “Woman is sweat tent is definitely hot”
~lakesidey
In my head I thought it was everyone of the female forsaken & Berelaine that had well formed front sides. I dont know how well I was paying attention to those kind of details. Not in any of my 5 re reads anyway
Right after Cadsuane admits her feelings for Rand………
Hi UncrownedKing, long time no see
Hello hello. I admit I havent had much time to comment in a long time. Finishing college and starting my career puts a damper on my brain and free time.
Funny, that’s exactly what my brother said
Kind of a nothing quote to start the week….
But why is Cadsuane talking about stopping a man’s heart, I wonder? Not many ‘good’ AS would ever actually do that to a person- they’d have to know deep down in their hearts that the man is a darkfriend….
hmm, perhaps she’s commenting on the death of a man with her, by someone of the Black Ajah? Tam? That would certainly cause pain to Rand- is Graendal successful in causing pain to him at last?
Maybe it wasn’t such a nothing quote afterall….
Can someone please post the quote?
“It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.
Thanks!
I have a secret wish for Cadsuane to be not just black but a new dreadlord and then Moiraine turns up and kicks her butt! Le sigh…
“But not so easy to start it again.”
Would be the next line.
This is just after someone has died and someone is trying to ressurect them. Nyneve or Flinn, would be my guess.
Hmm interesting though, Rand lies bleeding out furiously on the Rocks of Shao’Ghul. Alivia will stop his heart so he does not bleed out (no pumping no bleeding, so the theory goes). Cadsuane makes this statement, with my addition. Then Nyneve does her trick with Flinn’s help, as it would take both. Right after she makes the statement “pass me his bond.”
LOL doubtfull they would give so many quotes from the same scene tho.
oh, also, replenishing blood in the world of dreams is an easy thing, but healing wounds is very hard. I wonder if this has anything to do with it.
roguestar @12:
I have a secret wish for Cadsuane to be not just black but a new
dreadlord and then Moiraine turns up and kicks her butt! Le sigh…
Rand would have noticed, now he has his new Darkfriend detecting skills. ;)
Hi Fiddler
Yes but in my head, he doesn’t say anything because he knows she is aiming to get him to Shayol Ghul in one piece which helps him…even though she’s doing it for the Dark One…I know, kooky theory but it makes her presence bearable for me :)
Cads to another member of Team Light as they have a member of Team Dark prisoner and she is mentioning how easily she could kill him, without breaking the three oaths, but the prisoner doesn’t know that.
Didn’t Rand say in the scene when he exiled Cadsuane something like “Do you believe that I can stop your heart, right here and now?” So maybe it’s a respone to one of Rand’s sayings.
Not to say about the quote itself…more guessing on the context. I could visualize Cads saying this to someone (a male I believe) in possbly the following scenarios.
1. After finding someone that has died/been assassinated from heart failure by a channeler.
2. As a not-so-veiled threat to a non-channeler.
3. To back-up a point made by her or someone else relative to how dangerous a certain person/situation might be.
4. As avox @18 pointed out, in response to someone’s catch-phrase/statement.
Anyway…we will find out.
At first read, the specification of “a man’s heart” makes it sound as if this is in the romantic context, as incongruous as that might seem from Cadsuane (please remember that she is Green). If this were a purely biological point being made, the statement would be “It is a simple thing, to stop a heart.”
However, it is quite possible that she is speaking obliquely for the benefit of a man she wants to frighten, without having to resort to cooking oil and salt, or figs and mice.
Then again, as already hinted at by others, the romantic context might just be frightening enough coming from her.
When I read this line from Cads, I thought of the Black Tower. Maybe they’ve finally figured out it’s a Dreadlord factory, and while discussing what to do about the evil Ashaman, Cads throws out this line.
Looks like somebody bragged to Cads again about stopping a man’s heart. Only if it wasn’t Rand, there isn’t as much shock and awe.
Cadsuane facing Rianna Andomeran, who has finally come out of whatever woodwork Moghedien sent her into.
it could be related to the answer to one of rand’s questions to the ‘finn:
“to live, you must die”
i’ve always had a feeling (especially after min’s viewing of alivia that she would “help rand die”) that this meant a deliberately induced state of CLINICAL dth-essentially, stopping his heart then later restarting it. (to what exact purpose, i cannot say–perhapsto face the dark one on his own turf? when a person dies, their soul at that moment becomes accessible to the dark one–maybe they’ve a scheme for rand being able to fight the DO in such a state?
“Or a woman’s,” observed Rand, his tone polite.
Cads might hear of Egs new retirement plan and decide that it is a good idea to do that before the Last Battle.
“Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin
Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that
seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
One of the Wise Ones I suppose. Edarra? About wolfbrotherliness?
~lakesidey
Today’s quote DOES sound like something an Aiel would say to Perrin and I agree it is about Perrin’s wolf side. However, I think that Perrin trusts Gaul more than any other Aiel and he would speak to Gaul about this before anyone else outside of Faile or Elyas.
Day 16:
“Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
I would say a wise one to Perrin… but I have no clue what could be happened. Maybe Perrin wanting to leave after a lost battle?
“Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
Amy’s to Perrin about the great debate at Merrilor between Egwene and Rand?
I don’t know. Could be Faile speaking to Perrin. I know if my wife is upset with me, she’ll sometimes use my whole name! hah!
It’s probably a wise one- just the tone and content screams wise one, not to mention the whole name thing they’re so fond of.
Cadsuane — Taim has been captured and she is suggesting . . . .
Well, if that is a female it would have to be a wise one… because no other female group in the series would ever say “and that’s all i got to say about that!” Well, they might say it, but then they would keep on talking about it.
The preachiness of it points to it being said by a female. Thus wise one it is.
The tone and content – full name, reference to a snake – convince me that it is a Wise One. Not about his wolf side, though; he’s reached his balance on that. First guess, it’s something to do with wanting to protect Faile by sending her away or something on that order.
Also… is this a short-term foreshadowing of him losing a leg?
This last quote is clearly about some new foolishness re: Faile, IMHO. Makes me feel tired…
@@@@@ 34 Wetlandernw
Good idea about the possible forshadowing
I’d guess the same as others about it being a WO
As to what they’re talking about, nothing in particular jumps at me, just too many possibilities without more context.
Here’s a wild one for you…Cad talking to Rand about possible ways to kill Lews Theron at the last battle so Rand can continue living after…If I’m not mistaken, Min viewed that Rand/Lews (could be either since they are both there) will die as part of the last battle.
One of the Wise Ones to Perrin who appears about to do something rash. Cutting off his foot for fear a snake might bite it sounds like Perrin is considering doing something over protective toward Faile perhaps, that will do more harm then good to his cause.
“Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
IrishO’Malley@30: I’m with you, I think. Although it sounds very much like Aviendah’s speech pattern, using the complete name like she does with Rand Al’Thor. I think it has something to do with the Rand/Egwene meet up at Merrilor. (Let’s hope it doesn’t have to do with Faile..ug.)
Being overprotective of Faile again wouldn’t be a “terrible mistake.” This sounds like something on a larger scale, such as Perrin’s decision to support Rand’s breaking of the seals (the terrible mistake) because he fears the Dark One’s influence on the world.
AHHH! THESE ‘MEMORIES’ ARE KILLING ME!!!!!!!
I’m just getting a bit bored. Much preferred the fun and games on Brandons website last time round. The reveal by tokens was awesome… this is getting a bit same old same old.
I’m thinking of converting to the shadow, just for a bit of light relief! :)
It isn’t Faile speaking. If she was going to use the “full name” treatment, it would be Perrin t’Bashere Aybara.
It could be a Wise One. It could also be an Aes Sedai. They will add a last name to increase the weight of what they are saying.
However, neither Wise One nor Aes Sedai would intentionally block themselves from being able to continue offering advice, so I think this is either Gaul or Rhuarc.
It may be about the Seals, but if it is, it isn’t about fear. Perrin isn’t motivated by fear, but by duty and careful consideration. Perrin is taking Rand’s side on this issue for two reasons. He sees who and what Rand is more clearly than most, and because Rand’s explanation of why the rubble must be cleared before building a proper patch was logical and sensible.
I am with Freelancer @43…Gaul often addresses Perrin as Perrin Aybara and this does sound like an Aiel thing to say (or an Aes Sedai…maybe even Moiraine). Although I think most of the AS that know Perrin would call him just that.
can somebody post a compilation of all posts? I have never received any emails even when i signed up twice, and sent an email to the TOR rep who said she will add me to the list. Thanks
Remember to keep the discussion on the first batches in their respective threads.
1: “It had been useful at Maradon. Nobody knew he had it. That was important.”
2: “I should like to hear one of your stories. Perhaps you could tell me of the time your father and you visited Shara?”
3: “Being married is not so bad, Perrin. Why didn’t you tell me it was not so bad? I think I am rather fond of it.”
4: “Pass his bond to me.”
5: “Creator shelter us,” she whispered.
Mat scowled. “You know, that’s what Tuon said.”
6: The right thing had always seemed clear to Galad before, but never had it felt as right as this. Those streaks of light were like indicators on a map, arrows pointing his way. The Light itself guided him. It had prepared him, placed him here at this moment.
7: “Nobody travels the Ways,” Ituralde said, aghast.
8: Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it.
9: The letter was written in Mat’s hand. And, Elayne noticed with amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he’d sent her weeks ago.
10: “And farewell to you, old friend,” she said to the air. “Until I dream again.”
11: “One more thing, the marath’damane…”
“I’ll deal with those channelers personally,” Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.
12: “Enough talk. You will bed me now.”
13: “We must spread the word to all of our allies,” Amys said. “We must not use this weave.”
14: That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever.
15: “It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.
16: “Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
I’m thinking a Wise One. One of the many in Perrin’s entourage. Only the Aiel speak like that, all formal with no contractions and speaking out a person’s full name.
@46 h_a_ eriksson….you rock! Thanks you for taking the time to post the memories!
@48 – I also posted near the end of each of the first two threads with a list of the Memories from that week.
Probably one of the white tower witch trying to tell how Perrin should manage his army? — Like reality, there are always folks thinking they know how to do something better even if they know less!
Hmm, Reading all the snipets. it should be interesting if the land of the Shara plays a role in this final book. As well as how the seafolks will playout…
“Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
Slayer giving Perrin some advice in hopes that he survives long enough for his hunt.
Definitely sounds like a Wise One and likely one of his camp, assuming the Aiel haven’t split off from him to rejoin their respective clans or societies.
I would say it is Rhuarc, rereading right now, and the syntax is a lot like his up to halfway through LoC. Wow i have a lot to read and not a lot of time… 645 hours until release in western Canada
“Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin
Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that
seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
I’m about 90% sure this is a Lini saying. It’s definitely Lini’s usual pithy metaphor.
It’s gotta be about Faile in some way. I mean, after he rescues her from Maradon, he thinks about how bad is was that he neglected his responsibilities and just focused on her. So, somehow he is worried about what will happen to her and is about to make a big mistake b/c of his worry.
@meowwl I like the Lini idea!
I do not think this is about Faile at all. In ToM Perrin realizes that he is going to have to let Faile go into danger no matter what. I will find the passage as soon as I can
#17 Surely Rand to…well everybody else
“It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
This has to be Rand talking to those gathered at the FOM.
This has to be Rand speaking. But what are the 3 things? I can’t wait to read this book!
Day 17:
“It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
After reading Leigh’s review and thinking outside the box…
How would Jordan/Sanderson use Padan Fain in the showdown at Shayol Ghul?
It would be very tricksy if he was like Gollum and ended up being instrumental to the downfall of the Dark One….
“It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
Rand, to Lanfear maybe? Moridin?
Mierin!
Rand to the Rulers at the Field of Merrilor.
Rand to, basically, the consolidated lightside. The peace of the Dragon.
Day 17: Pretty obviously Rand talking, probably to the assembled rulers, et al.
Rand to Tuon. “Life” here means something like “life of service” as he kneels to her.
Rand to rulers and leaders at tFoM:
1. Dragon’s Peace
2. Legalize Male Channeling
3. Bars no longer close at 2AM.
Day 17 quote thoughts….
It it’s Rand (which I think it is) it makes sense that this is to either the assembled rulers or to Alivia (isn’t she supposed to help him die?).
I do not think Rand would necessarily be bargaining with Moridin on this as DO needs to break free and Rand’s not giving up his life unless the DO’s prison is resealed and/or made whole.
Edit for double typing.
The three things does remind me of the Eels and Aels though. I doubt that is relevant here, but maybe.
“It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
I’m guessing Gawyn as Egwene bonds him Warder…. Or did she do that already? I really need to get a re-read going.
I was also thinking Moir to the Finns. Choice of words and speech pattern sound wrong though…
Would love to see that scene in flashback, but have to agree it’s probably Rand speaking.
It is definitely Rand at the fields of
PelennorMerrilor.Im assuming one of the three things is the Dragon’s peace. Any speculation as to what the others will be?
“It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
Definitely Rand to the rulers at Merrilor.
Hmm.
1. Peace .. yo
2. Ashaman / Aes Sedai – Combined into one force again?
3. Doesn’t have to pay taxes.. again… ever… (Armageddon)
Rand to the Creator, was my immediate thought.
I can’t really speculate on anyone else it might be; there are many possibilities, but the probable one is Rand – in which case, obviously, he’s speaking to the leaders gathered at FoM. We were already told that he intended to make certain demands on the monarchs of the world, in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the DO. Now we know there are three demands. What are they? Current best guesses:
*Peace (we already knew that would be one)
*Some provision for channelers, male and female; probably that they not be outlawed or enslaved; quite likely, also, certain restrictions on them to protect against abuse of power
*Continuation, support and expansion of the academies
@@@@@IrishOmalley haha
@@@@@ Bouncing Beatnik
I dont think that the creator is going to play a part at all in the series. It wouldnt make sense if he could intervene and let this happen to the world with the dark one. My pet theory is that even the voice in the Eye of the World is not the creator, but the dark one instead trying to play a deeper game
@76Wetlandernw
I agree with those points. One of my first thoughts (besides the Dragon’s Peace) was also some provision for the academies to keep them running. And it would make sense that’d he’d ask for a provision for channelers.
I’d think Rand may demand Mat becoming Field Marshal over the assembled armies for the Light, next to the Dragon’s Peace and equal rights and duties for Male and Female Channelers.
On the remark to Perrin from yesterday, I’m going with Freelancer here that it’s Gaul or Rhuarc. My bet is on Gaul, since he’s been in Perrin’s storyline during thee series, and I’m not sure (but feel free to correct me) that the Aiel clans came to the Fields of Merrilor. I thought they’re still tied up in NW Randland, and the summons wasn’t from Rand directly; he made Egwene do it, and Aiel have no reason to respond to Egwene’s ‘requests’, even if the Wise Ones share her worry.
Oh, and the metaphor of a snake biting a foot seems typically one an Aiel would use. It just screams ‘Aiel Waste’ at me….
Day 17:
Seems pretty obvious that is Rand stating one of his conditions at the Fields of Merrilor.
I would be willing to go with the three suggested by
76. Wetlandernw. They make sense and fit what we’ve already heard.
*Peace (we already knew that would be one)
*Some provision for channelers, male and female; probably that they not be outlawed or enslaved; quite likely, also, certain restrictions on
them to protect against abuse of power
*Continuation, support and expansion of the academies.
I agree with that it is most likey Rand who says it. But could it not be that one of the things he requires is that he’d be allowed to break the Seals?
Dance the sa’sara
Flashmob the white tower and do the above
post on youtube
meowwl @54
Lini would absolutely never stipulate that such-and-such is all that she will say about a thing. And, it’s a bit wordy for one of her “old sayings”.
kraefzke @72
Moiraine was never in a position to “require” anything of the Eelfinn, and definitely not in exchange for her life, as that was already in their hands. I would dearly love to know what her other two requests were, aside from being allowed to keep the ivory bracelet angreal.
Can we get a link to THIS week on the Memories of Light Section? The one there now, starts at day 1 and you have to go AAALLLL the way through post 1, then AAALLLLL the way through week 2 to get to week 3.
up2stuff,
The quickest way to get here from there, is by clicking on the tag called Memories of Light, just below the intro, just above Related Posts. It takes you to a linked listing of each week’s post.
But if TPTB feel like it, they’ve included backwards-looking links at the top of the Week 2 and Week 3 pages, they could go ahead and build forward-looking same for the Week 1 post.
I just google ‘memories of light spoiler thread’ and the first 3 hits are each of the 3 weeks.
@83 Do we know for sure if the angreal Moraine came out of ToG with was indeed the same bracelet that went in with her and Lanfear? I could’ve sworn the description was different. If it’s the same, I wonder how she would get to keep it, since I believe Lanfear was the one holding it when they went into the twisted doorway.
1. The Peace of the Dragon – You are now a union of nations and will conduct yourselves peacably under my banner. For as long as this pact of nations lasts, you will not wage war upon one another but instead agree to come to each other’s aid in the event of an attack. Those who agree to honor this peace but then break this pact may in turn be set upon by the united might of the rest.
2. Channellers among you, men and women alike, must be treated no differently than your citizens and are free to channel the One Power provided its use does not break any laws applicable to ordinary citizens.
3. You will accept my leadership as Dragon Reborn, for the duration of the Last Battle. I will grant you channelers to aid you and you will have the might of the other nations at your side in keeping with my previous requirements.
Fortuona ignored her, standing. “This woman is my new Soe’feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known.”
Tuon talking about Satelle Anan.
(Sorry, didn’t have time to check for spelling of the name)
Day 18:
Fortuona ignored her, standing. “This woman is my new Soe’feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known.”
Tuon (obviously!) about…Suffa? Wouldn’t heven have to change her name much, Suffa, Soe’feia…
~lakesidey[i][/i]
lakesidey @89 – That was my first thought, too – maybe Elaida/Suffa had a Foretelling and was promoted. Unless Fortuona has completely inverted everything in the Empire, though, that wouldn’t be enough. She has other damane with true Foretelling, though IIRC it’s even more rare in Seanchan than in Randland.
I like the idea of Setalle, but… I don’t know. I’m not sure she’d give up her family to take the job, and I’m not sure she’d be willing to bring her family into that situation. OTOH, she just might decide that being in a position like that would be the best way she could be a true Servant of All – even without the OP. It would be a sweet answer – and you can bet Setalle would indeed speak truth! Much more than good ol’ Suffa…
If Tuon is naming a new Truthspeaker, what happened to Selucia? Maybe she decided to keep her as her Voice afterall, but that seems unlikely. I suppose this could merely be Tuon formally introducting Selucia as her Truthspeaker, perhaps to members of the High Blood that were not in Ebou Dar recently. Soe’feia does mean Truthspeaker, right?
Who is Tuon ignoring?? Egwene? Why Setalle Anan?
18
Min. It’s gotta be. I can’t see her giving that title to any Marath’ damane. Only a matter of time before they meet, and Fortuona finds out about her visions.
Much like the Aiel give her mad respect because of her visions, so will the Seanchan.
I like the Min idea. It also creates a nice tie between Rand and Fortuona, besides Mat.
@@@@@ Wetlander: Weeeeell, it was not a particularly serious guess ;)
Now, let’s see. Who has done all sorts of harm and got away with it because she’s pretty and a queen? And most unfairly, ended up with probably the prettiest guy and second-best swordsman on the lightside? Hmmm, Berelain, I do believe.
Now while this happens to stunning women all the time in real life, the WOT is very emphatically not real life. So, she should get her comeuppance. At least a little bit. Because I say so, that’s why.
And hence I suspect that since by now Galad has been presumably enticed by the lights in a previous memory (ooh, shiny!) and taken a knife to a nuclear war (as per my best guess about one of LB’s reactions), he is probably now a fine layer of ash half a mile across. Consequently Berelain now finds herself in this unexpected role.
As to why Fortuona chooses her…whoa, it’s obvious innit? She’s a descendant by blood of Hawkwing hinself! No wonder Fortuona says “we have been blessed” – since the Empress and family were
haemorrhagedsemirhaged, there is a good chance that Berelain sur Paendrag is the highest blood left after Tuon herself!(Why, yes, this one isn’t a very serious theory either. How’d you guess?)
More seriously,
EgeaninLeilwin Shipless, anybody?~lakesidey
The “holy woman” aspect seemed a bit odd, to me. Maybe Hessalam has been sent to pick up where Semirhage left off?
@Tektonica – I agree. It also gives Min a recognized status like the other two women with Rand. Aviendha is a Wise One, Elayne is Queen of two nations, and Min (formerly woman who sees stuff) would be Super Holy Woman who sees stuff.
I like the Setalle Anan and Min suggestions.
One of the possible problems (for both of these two) is that they currently have significant others who I don’t think either would want to stay away from, for long. Setalle Anan has spent enough time away from her husband and kids (grown though they may be) and Min probably doesn’t want to spend too much time away from Rand, as she is determined to not let him die at the Last Battle.
I could see Setall Anan and her family moving back to Ebou Dar, though.
Lord help us all if its Suffa. I don’t think Leigh’s desk (or head, for that matter) would survive the headdesking…
Ah, lakesidey beat me to it, Egeanin was my guess as well. It would be a nice way to tie up her character arc.
Lakesidey, I’m with you, kid, about Berelain anyhow.
You know, the first name that popped into my head was Moiraine. I’m sure I must be wrong there but, nevertheless…..
Put me in the Egeanin camp…it seems obvious. At some point Egeanin is going to be key in making it known throughout the Seanchan that suldame can channel, a key piece of “truthspeak” that will qualify her for exactly this position. Despite Aviendha’s “flash forward”, I suspect that Tuon will fundamentally change (or at least try to change) the status of women who can channel, partially be admitting (or it being found out) that she is capable of channeling herself. Egeanin is a logical partner in this effort, and one who might require Tuon’s protection in the manner of this quote.
In addition to Egeanin, I guess its possible that Bethamin could be the one being made Truth Speaker, using the same logic as my post above (101). However, it seems like a stretch for a very minor character, and her “honor” has not been nearly as well established as Egeanin.
Hmm. The only one I can possibly see is Egeanin/Leilwin. Perhaps when Tuon and co. arrive at the White Tower and is confronted by Egwene, with Egeanin in tow, and suddenly she says all sul’dam can learn to channel, and Tuon says the quote above.
I don’t know how credible that sounds, but that’s my 2 copper marks
Tuon already knows that all sul’dam can learn to channel. And she knows she can learn, but refuses to.
I cannot see her raising a damane to Truth Speaker. Maybe Egeanin, but even that would be a stretch.
But I cannot see her replacing Selucia unless Selucia is no longer able to do the job. Like dead. So I want to know what happened.
Ha! never noticed that before:
Soe’feia = Sophia, as in Holy Wisdom the goddess.
Makes me think that it should be Min or one of the super-girls, to put them up there in the pantheon of remembered/foreseen myths that are floating around. Having it be just some random Seanchan seems a bit out of place…but if it was so, I would think of Leilwyn Shipless ;) I could see Satelle also..
You guys are going to think I’m nuts, but what if it’s Egwene? Maybe Tuon is the Seanchan with the sword after all and they come to some sort of agreement? She wouldn’t have to be serving Tuon or at her side to be considered a Holy Woman who cannot be touched. And maybe through that the whole collaring channelers and Aiel future situation is resolved. IDK I’m probably wrong, but that quote got the mental gears turning. :)
I fear you are too positive. Holy Woman, Blessed, New True Speaker… That does not sound like the Empress (might she live forevever). Tuon most likely was manipulated, probably by the same person who killed Selucia. She now raised a Forsaken as true speaker and ‘Holy Woman’. One of the bad things we are about to see…
:( You’re bumming me out, MisterM.
My first thought on the day 18 quote was Satelle (maybe she is blessed because she had been “cleansed” of the ability to channel?) but I remembered the Seanchan don’t “hate” channelers, they just want to be perfectly behaved human pets and don’t trust them to control themselves so they turn them into slaves by means of physical and mental torture using the a’dam.
So, I think that Min (as guessed by many above) is the best choice. The only thing I don’t like about the context though is that, whomever it is, is apparently in a position to be “controlled” or expected to be controlled by the Seanchan. This does not bode well for Min, IMO, if it’s her.
So, assuming there can only be one Soe’feia at a time, Selucia must be either dead or missing. Thwarting an assassination attempt perhaps?
If so, MisterM @107 could very well be right. The only thing about it is I get the sense that whomever Tuon is speaking to is in the middle of a discussion/explanation. If a Forsaken were using compulsion on Tuon and/or manipulating a situation, I don’t think it would fall out that way. The “interruption” part makes me think that T’averen power could be at play.
@107.MisterM
That already happened once with Semirhage aka Anath. It seems unlikely that they’d go for a repeat that obvious.
Also, this is the book where the Light side is finally going to get its act together (otherwise we’d have either another book or a Dark side victory), and a Forsaken taking that spot again for any significant period of time would go against that rather extremely.
Oh, and I think it actually does sound exactly like the Empress – right after seeing a particularly portentious omen.
Wetlander: I think Berelain is a good guess, because of her Artur sure Paendrang lineage. But it could be a bad person/ forsaken/DF too, as per Mr.M. Or Min, maybe? This could be a really BAD thing.
Well, all our guesses right now are just that – guesses. There’s just nothing to go on. However, I’m guessing that the person Fortuona is ignoring is the one who is protesting against the “honor” being conferred on her.
“No, really, your Imperial Majesty, I couldn’t possibly…”
Min and Berelain are both very interesting candidates, though I think the former is more likely – if she can be pried away from Rand. For no good reason at all, I suspect that it’s someone Mat has said he trusts. Can’t you just see Nynaeve? Or Aviendha? (Not bloody likely, but it’s a hilarious mental image…)
I personally would rule out anyone who can channel, just because I don’t think it will turn around that fast. Obviously female. Let’s hope it’s not Sevanna…
I doubt Berelain. Tuon indicated she needs to fill out the Imperial Family, and there are three separate foreshadowings that Berelain will shave her head bald. My first idea was Tylee, but sleepinghour suggested Setalle and that is also a good possibility.
Free @@@@@ 85..
I knew I was missing something. I figured there had to be an easier way but I have Rabies or something and missed it. Thanks
There is a difference between someone’s Voice, and their Truthspeaker. Selucia’s job hasn’t changed.
This is most likely Hessalam. We’ve know from the ToM Epilogue that she has begun working on Tuon, but we don’t know the extent. Surely she could take Anath’s place, even if it seems a repeat of Semirhage.
#18 –
Fortuona ignored her, standing. “This woman is my new Soe’feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known.”
Probably Mistress Setalle Anan, the former InnKeeper.
I’m gonna guess Moiraine. She’s with Mat at the end of ToM, Mat’s Ebou Dar bound, and she’d have need of protection from the Seanchan. I don’t know what her wishes were, other than the angreal, but maybe one of them could qualify her as a holy woman to Tuon.
By the way, I like the idea of it being Nynaeve, for a few reasons.
1. She’s the Wisdom, duh.
2. The language Tuon uses is reminiscent of Masema.
3. She is probably the most outspoken character in the books by a long shot. She specializes in telling it like it is.
4. The Healing connection she has with Semirhage.
I just find it too easy to believe Nynaeve will die. I would rather she not die, but she’s one of the few mains who is vulnerable.
Freelancer
Selucia is both.
The Gathering Storm – 19
I can’t see Fortuona suddenly choosing someone she barely knows to hover around her constantly and trust to offer sound advice. Unless she hangs around with Min, Nynaeve, or any of the other candidates early on in the book, the most obvious choice would be Setalle.
That said, I still find the way she announces it bizarre, and it implies that Selucia is dead/incapacitated. I’m thinking of the way Compelled people speak worshipfully of the Compeller, which fits well with this new Truthspeaker suddenly being an untouchable holy woman. I can’t see the Shadow deciding to leave the Seanchan alone just for the sake of originality, and they still have the most proficient Compeller alive at their disposal.
Freelancer at 85
J Dauro at 119 is correct. I saw this reference on Dragonmount as well as checked in TGS last night to make sure it was correct.
So, unless you can have two (which I don’t think you can in Seanchan culture), Selucia is either dead, missing, or has been demoted.
Re: Selucia –
Selucia is, as of ToM, both Voice and Truthspeaker. It is clearly Fortuona’s intent to keep her as Soe’feia and find another to serve as Voice, as of this statement. We’ll have to RAFO whether she did so, and then lost Selucia somehow, or if this other woman comes along and is declared Soe’feia while Selucia continues as Voice. My money is on the former; Selucia has proven an able bodyguard, but able bodyguards all too often end up KIA. (It will make me sad, though. That might be one of Leigh’s choke-up moments.)
@122- Yes, I agree that Selucia may be headed for a bad end. Will be a loss for Tuon, for sure.
I also don’t think that the new Soe’feia is a Forsaken or darksider. Seems rather redundant, especially since once Rand sees Tuon, and presumably the new truthspeaker, he’ll be able to see the darkness in them. Surely the Forsaken have some inkling he has this ability by now, what with Weiramon and that other Tairen noble he let go to tell their ‘associates’ they can no longer hide in his presence.
That being said, I have no idea who it could be then. I said Egeanin, but that doesn’t fit either, I don’t think.
We’ll see come Jan. 8th! First time I’ve actually wanted the holidays over as soon as possible!
Day 19:
“What did you do to your eye?”
“A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers.”
cute, but not really much to theorize or discuss about here.
Boring. Obviously Mat, and the joke is terrible.
Day 19 made me chuckle.
I believe that these two lines are Tuon and Mat talking to each other.
Gotta be Mat, unless someone else has suffered an eye injury.
Sounds like something he’d say to the ole crowd…Rand, Perrin, Egwene or Nynaeve.
“What did you do to your eye?” “A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers.”
“Sandersoned”…..
Yeah, it seems obvious this is Mat, and who’s asking doesn’t really matter and could be almost anyone.
So, with that out of the way, what crazy and almost certainly wrong theories can everyone come up with to laugh at and tide us over to Day 20?
Gotta be Matt and Chapter 11. Another thought that is spinning around in my head about Matt. Althought we do not get his POV until C:11, it does not mean he is not in other action… just a thought.
“What did you do to your eye?” “A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers.”
Rand and Mat.
Tuon almost always uses his name, Matrium(sp)…this person has a more casual form of speech.
@130
“What did you do to your eye?”
“A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers”
“It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.
“Enough talk you will bed me now!”
I get that the second person is Mat speaking. What is the deal with the 13 innkeepers? Is that supposed to be a reference to the Eelfinn/Aelfinn? Sounds more like an AS circle.
He’s joking…although 13 is not a very auspicious number.
I think it’s Perrin and Mat based on their last interaction, which was full of one liners.
If it was Rand, Mat would retort something about Rand’s missing hand.
oh, wait. Setalle. She was an innkeeper, right?
“What did you do to your eye?” “A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers.”
This is, definitely, a Setalle and Matt conversation.
I agree the eye thing has to be Matt.. typical Matt, and hilarious. I’m gonna put my 2 copper in and say the ‘queryer’ is Perrin.
As for the Soe’feia, you’ll think I’m nuts, but I’m gonna put Elaida out there. With the new healing weaves and Travelling, they’ll certainly be in her debt. And with the revelation of Sul’dam being able to learn to channel, there’s an admittedly small chance that channellers will lose at least some of their stigma (and Tuon knows about the men by now.. what will they do with them?). So.. yeah.. crazy, but what if I’m right?
Mat and Beslan makes sense to me. With the innkeepers of Ebou Dar being famous for their daggers, it makes sense that he would be joking with somebody familiar with that culture. The tone is a little too informal to be Setalle or Tuon and with the limited space in this book, I’d guess that it’s part of a Mat-Beslan reunion conversation before he goes to talk with Tuon.
RE # 131: How do we know that Mat’s first POV chapter is #11? Where did you get that info?
Schrodinger@141: I like your thinking.
Edit for spelling….er, typing too fast and running off error.
Ok, it would be a repeat if the new truthspeaker would be again a Forsaken. I just cannot believe that Tuon will ‘worship’ anyone without being compelled.
Regarding Min, I think and fear she is the one taking the knife to a nuclear war. Galad and Gawyn would take swords, Aviendha has the one power, and Min always has her knives.
Regarding the corkscrew, would Setalle move back to Ebou Dar? She could have just accompanied Tuon but decided to join her family. Although the inn keeper comment would fit. Egwenes father is an innkeeper, too.
@142 – Brandon read this at DragonCon in September, and stated at the time that it’s the first Mat POV in the book. Not necessarily the first time we’ll see him, through someone else’s POV, but the first time we’ll be in his head.
@134 – BWAHAHA!!!
I don’t see why he needs to be talking to someone who is an innkeeper or an innkeepers daughter. I think the comment just suits Sanderson’s Mat. I think it was kind of funny but not really RJ’s Mat.
I still think it’s Perrin he’s talking to.
the only one with humor is Mat…less then a month for most people here…luckies:)
J.Dauro @119
Oh yes, thanks. I came up short of what I meant to say in the previous comment. The Selucia was back to “only” being her Voice, but still with the job of bodyguard hidden in plain sight.
If Tuon is at all under another forsaken’s influence, there’s no reason to suppose that said forsaken wouldn’t take up a position which includes a level of power over the ruler. Truthspeaker is virtually sacrosanct, hence the “She who may not be touched” pronouncement.
Sounds a lot like Talmanes’ “bad cheese” joke. Not that funny and kinda lame.
I’m still friggen super looking forward to the book tho!
TOR, you teases!!!!!!!
SPQR78@147 Your comment about innkeepers and innkeeper’s daughters made me think. Who else do we know that was an innkeeper’s daughter, and is very likely to speak to Mat in such a direct manner? Only the one, the only Flame of Tar Valon, the Watcher of the Seals, the Amyrlin Seat, Egwene al’Vere! You could just imagine how well *that* reunion goes…
Please let this be a sparring match.
“As Tam attacked again, Rand lifted the sword and-”
Half a sentence is cheating!
Do, Rand isn’t just wearing a sword, but learning to use it left handed?
Rand lifted his sword an channled.
I’m thinking one of 2 things on this one. 1.) Rand is re-learning to use the sword one handed. 2.) somehings gone nuts with the last battle and Tam’s been taken over by the DO, and being forced to fight Rand. I know the second one is a bit out there, but just my thoughts on it.
Tam is Demodred
“As Tam attacked again, Rand lifted the sword and-”
Why the sword instead of his sword?
I don’t think this is a sparring match.
Tam is fighting and Rand is about to swing into action.
Whoa! TAM attacked?? Yes, please let this be a sparring/training session. It would just be too heartbreaking if it were anything else.
@@@@@ 154 RobSS
Rand lifted
histhe sword an channled.Callandor? Justice?
The more I think about this the more I think they’re fighting side by side
This is my favorite memory yet!
PS – Down with Tuon!!!
Could be that Tam and Rand are fighting side by side against some unknown foe. Tam attacks, while Rand prepares to attack or use the One Power…
Well, one of Leigh’s hints from her no-spoilers review mentioned a sparring match that had her choking up.
I’m really hoping that this particular memory refers to that sparring session, where Tam is possibly helping Rand get more comfortable with his one-handed fighting style.
Janson@153 – Much like Inigo Montoya and the Dread Pirate Roberts, Rand is not left handed…
A couple of possibilities here.
Rand and Tam are sparring (explains the sword, instead of his sword, if it is a sparring sword).
Rand and Tam are fighting side by side and Tam is giving Rand some breathing room to get his channel on.
Rand and Tam are fighting each other due to evil mumbo jumbo circumstances.
It is not Tam, but rather a facimile of Tam that is a result of evil mumbo jumbo bubble of evil.
I always had a funny feeling about Tam being Demandred. Especially when there are two in ToM. The Tam with Perrin is training an army and suddenly dissappeared without saying why. He could have told Perrin he was going to Tear with or without AS..
so i foolishly say that it is Rand fighting Demandred/Tam.
Yeah.. sparring sounds like the right answer. ‘New’ Rand wouldn’t attack Tam, possessed or no – he’d hold him with the Power. Of course, Rand could be losing control again if he’s been channelling the ‘True Power’ much.
Hmm, – a sparring match going terrible wrong. Rand hurting or killing Tam. That would be a bit harsh. Tam injuring Rand (wasn’t a suggestion that Rand gets blinded?) would be more fitting. But how would such an episode fit into the endgame? Everything seems to be in a hurry, I cannot believe Rand finding even time to spar – he could rescue the Black Tower or put the Seanchan behind him using up the same amount of time.
Well, I do hope this is a sparring match, or they’re side by side, or Tam has Rands back as he raises….Callandor? Justice?
Rand does need to learn to use his left hand……like KiManiak says @162. LOL.
There are going to be some gut-wrenching moments in this book, probably associated with major characters dying in dramatic ways. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tam is one of those who dies, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he dies defending Rand during the LB. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the part where Leigh (spoiler-free review) had to walk away from the book for awhile.
I don’t think Tam is Demandred b/c Rand has the ability to recognize Darkfriends now and he gave Tam a hug when he returned from Dragonmount. Unless of course Demandred knows some wierd channeling thing to defeat it.
@164 There are not 2 Tams, he left Perrin and went to Tear. He was sworn to secrecy so he didn’t tell Perrin where he was going. Remember Rand told Nynaeve that Perrin was camped near a fallen statue with a hand holding a sword stabbing the ground. Its was days later that Perrin saw Rand on Dragonmount when it was decided that the LB would happen per the wolves.
@166 Rand was blind to his enemies but his cleansing/merging on Dragonmount made it possible for him to see the DO’s followers. Also ,when his hand was blown off there was mention of trouble with his sight, but that hasn’t come up again, that I can remember.
At the end of TOM Tam had been sent by Rand to the Two Rivers to recruit fighters for the LB. Remember Egwene noticing a force that she didn’t recognize at FoM when she ask her warder to keep an eye on them.
@157 “the sword” is the clue here…come on January 8!
Minor correction – If this scene is simply a sparring match (and we do know there’s a rather emotional one in the book), where Rand is perhaps doing some relearning… Rand lost his left hand to Semirhage’s fireball, so either he is re-learning to use is sword with only his right hand, or he’s learning to use the new left hand that someone made for him.
There’s no need for this to be a tragic moment, no matter what y’all think might finish out the sentence. My first thought (and still my first bet) was indeed a sparring match between Tam and Rand. I can’t for a moment credit the idea that they are actually fighting against one another here, and I can’t quite see what situation would call for them to be fighting side by side, with Tam having to attack “again” while Rand recovers from something-or-other.
@170 “The sword” The sword that is flawed, breaks, does something crazy to kill Tam??? He is unmarried, currently always suspicious in WoT.
Demandred is NOT Tam. RJ himself said that we have NOT seen Demandred’s alter ego up to and including KOD. He wouldn’t have said this if there were “two” Tams.
Don’t think Tam is Demandred, aside from things RJ has said in the past on the subject. You really think, if Demandred had been disguised as Tam all this time, and finally confronts Rand, he would attack him with a sword? A sword!? Cmon, unless they were somewhere that negates channeling, I would think this confrontation would be like a couple of nukes going off next to each other
I thought that we had established, without any doubt, that Taim is absolutely Demandred. Now, you can’t take out his “i” and make him a different character who is also Demandred! Mait is the one who lost an “i”!
Sometimes I wonder if we’re even reading the same books…
I thought about putting a spoiler here, then decided against it.
-Beren
Just a little tidbit on the Tuon naming a holy woman, Egeanin in WH has a whole paragraph about wanting to be like her mother and that she was the left hand of the empress….mother daughter same position with 2 empress’?
Hard to imagine what Leilwin Shipless, as named by Tuon herself, could do to earn herself above that pronouncement. Given that she’s going to Egwene for the express purpose of assisting the Tower because of what she knows about sul’dam and damane.
I suppose it’s possible that Tuon has a strong enough change of heart, and finally decides to scrap a thousand years of Seanchan slavery, that she would see Egeanin as a pioneer in that area, and reward her courage. Quite a few things would have to intervene to set up that case. Quite a few…
@177 Freelancer
Quite a few things would have to intervene . . . or one insanely powerful ta’veren exerting enough pressure on the pattern to turn even the resistant to his wishes. Tuon has resisted his influence before, but at that time he was not the man he is now.
Which is really just a pipe dream of mine — Fortuona turning their culture on its head and beginning the process of freeing the Damane, sending their Sul’dam to join the White Tower, and enrolling herself as a novice so she can learn to scrub floors while Mat waits in an inn for her to finish her classes.
It’s not going to happen, but it makes a fun mental image, no?
-Beren
@167 Tektonica
Rand only has a left arm though, not a left hand… Really not as much he can do without the hand.
Im wondering why Tam was using a sowrd instead of a shortbow or longbow, which are clearly his weapon of choice.
Im guessing it was either a bubble of evil or someone using compusion. But hoping it was just a sparring match. The people on this forum who say its Demandred are just crazy and fiending for who Demandred could possibly be. I would bet my right arm its not Demandred.
@alex Robinson
Tam is a blademaster, earned during(i think) the Aiel War. Hence why the blade he gave Rand in the first book has heron markings. He may be just as adept at the bow, but I wouldn’t call it his weapon of choice.
Also, @Beren, when was it established that Taim is definetely Demandred?
Tam got turned to the dark side and Rand will kill him. One of the tragedy of the book? — maybe it’ll be like starwar. :p
It could be Moridin. We know they have a connection. Min saw an aura that Rand and another guy will become one. We also know that for Rand to live he must die. And in the prologue of TGS Greandal looked and Moridin and thought “he looked a great deal like al’Thor. So this could be after the meeting of the two.
Here is another thought. Why do you assume they are fighting one another. Just because they both have swords doesn’t mean they have to use them against each other. They could be fighting something or someone together. Just saying there are more possibilities.
Beren is just snarking about Taimandred. LOL
beev @181
The description isn’t stated as chronological, but when Moiraine is answering the Amyrlin Seat about how Rand came to hold an heron-marked sword, she mentions him attaining the ranks of Blademaster, and Second Captain of the Companions, prior to referencing the Aiel War. It also makes sense that this be so, given that Rand was born at Dragonmount at the very end of the Aiel War, and Tam had to have left service very soon after that. Also, Tam told Rand that he earned the status of Blademaster by killing a man already of that rank, before witnesses. That suggests a duel, something not likely to have been allowed among soldiers during the Aiel War.
Again, not absolute proof, but the greatest likelihood is that Tam al’Thor became a Blademaster sometime between the Whitecloak and Aiel Wars.
As for weapons of choice, that seems to be a presumption based on him being the best bow-shot at competitions in the Two Rivers. He’s also competent with the staff, though Abell Cauthon usually wins that. I’d think that Tam’s weapon of choice would be whichever is most suitable to the situation.
@Freelancer, beev
I don’t quite remember where this came from (might be the BBoBA), but Tam al’Thor left Duopotamia as a young man and made a career in Ilian where he rose to second in Command of the Companions, before returning with his wife Kari and young Rand, shortly after the Aiel War.
I definitely agree that Tam would choose the most suitable weapon.
And you don’t feel a small measure of pride? Egwene asked herself. Rand al’Thor, once simple village boy and your near-betrothed, now the most powerful man in the world? You don’t feel proud of what he’s done?
Todays quote just made me even more ager to put my hands on the book!
Tough by the sound of it it seems like Egwene is upset – maybe also a little jealous – about what Rand has done / is going to do and she tries hard to remind herself that it is after all Rand and what he has done was likely a necessity.
I’d say day 21 – quote (as stated above) takes place at the fields of Merrilor, when Egwene pubicly opposes Rand, but (grudingly) admits to herself that she is proud.
I imagine this follows her calling him the king of the woolheads or somesuch, and then chastising herself for it.
And you don’t feel a small measure of pride? Egwene asked herself. Rand al’Thor, once simple village boy and your near-betrothed, now the most powerful man in the world? You don’t feel proud of what he’s done?
Why doesn’t she feel proud? Does she not admire what he’s done? Is she a bit overwhelmed by him? Is she jealous? Does it make her feel less than him? Is she disappointed in him in some way?
This sounds like it’s pretty complicated emotionally for Egwene. She has become the most powerful woman in the world, and up to now, the most powerful person in the world. Does this undermine her view of herself and her position? Or is does she have doubts about Rands’ true nature?
It must be difficult to see your once semi-awkward, young, sheepherder boyfriend morph into the Dragon Reborn, with memories of being another man from the Age of Legends, not to mention the knowledge he now has from said Age.
I hope she comes to trust him, and they can be partners in saving the world, that they can finally combine the male and female Aes Sedai into a single positive force again.
Don’t have anything to add or contribute, just that I’m really glad Tor folks are doing these memories. They’re a cool way to jazz up an already jazzed up fan base.
We are jazzed, no?
How much compulsion did Halima plant in Egwene’s mind? Might she be compelled to oppose Rand? Maybe this is a scene of her trying to (subconsciously) fight the compulsion.
@193 Remember..ones’ weaves die with that person or so we were led to believe when Rand destroyed Natrin’s Barrow. Halima/Aran’gar died there so any weaves she placed on Egwene’s mind should be mute.
@194 That only worked because Halima and Delana were balefired out of existence before they had placed the weaves. He did use a lot of power for that, but I don’t know that it was enough to undo what Halima had done to Egwene.
@194 Also, Rahvin was killed with balefire, but Morgase still feels the effects of his compulsion on her.
Tektonica @191 – FWIW, I didn’t read that as Egwene saying she wasn’t proud of Rand; rather, she’s admitting to herself what she can’t/won’t admit out loud (for some reason we’ll find out in a few weeks): that she really is proud of him, and possibly even just a little bit proud of that “he used to be mine” aspect.
Re: the latter, she’s consciously and deliberately tried to let go of that – partly because she didn’t want to look or feel like she was leaning on him to get where she was going, and partly because of his relationship with Elayne. (I don’t recall her specifically thinking about that with Aviendha or Min, but she might have.)
About the whole comment, though, it sounds to me like she’s in a situation where she feels like she has to stand strong as Amyrlin, whether standing against Rand himself or opposing someone who is talking him up. At the same time, she knows inside that The Amyrlin Seat and Egwene al’Vere don’t entirely agree with one another about Rand. We’ve seen that before, after all.
moondivatx @194 – That’s not entirely true. In the Natrin’s Barrow incident, Rand balefired the person who had put the Compulsion on Ramshalan, so the Compulsion never happened. There is no evidence that Compulsion in general, or any other weave someone has set, will stop when the person dies. If the channeler is actively maintaining a weave, it will of course end when said channeler is killed, knocked unconscious, or shielded/stilled. If a channeler is balefired, any weaves they performed in the preceding minutes will not have been done. Otherwise, there’s no reason for the result of a previous weave to be negated.
That said, there’s no proof that Halima used Compulsion on Egwene. She may have, but we don’t know. It’s pretty obvious that Halima did something to disrupt Egwene’s Dreaming and gave her severe headaches, but we don’t know that Compulsion was part of it. We also don’t know if there are any remaining effects from whatever Halima did.
The subject of weaves remaining after the weaver dies/is balefired/or knocked unconscious has been addressed with very mixed signals. I agree that if Halima used Compulsion on Egwene probably too much time had passed before Rand burnt her out of the pattern to affect those weaves. Just threw that thought out there for discussion.
BTW..I’m 58 and been reading/rereading/listening to and relistening too this series since 1990. Thanks to everyone for the diaglogue here to keep us occupied and motivated until Jan. 8, 2013!
moondivatx @199 – Hey, you’re even older than me! Not by much, but hey – I’ll take what I can get. :)
FWIW, Team Jordan seems to be a bit closemouthed on most of this now – probably since most of the questions that give us clues are directly related to Egwene & Halima, and they don’t want to give anything away, either for or against the Compulsion idea. If there really was Compulsion, Nynaeve will probably find it; if not, they’ll have some way of telling us if there were other lasting effects of Halima’s meddling. Or not – I suppose it could be one of those things RJ declared to be “unresolved.” I would be bummed…
And you don’t feel a small measure of pride? Egwene asked herself. Rand al’Thor, once simple village boy and your near-betrothed, now the most powerful man in the world? You don’t feel proud of what he’s done?
I think it’s the FOM where Rand unites the armies behind him and leaves Eggs stupified at what happened. After all, men are stupid, AS the top of the food chain, and here’s a man who whipped her over the fate of the world. I think she’s licking her wounds and dealing with reality.
When the Male Aes Sedai went nuts in the AoL, it wasn’t just the Males that were affected. The women didn’t go mad, but the balance of power in the universe, equal halfs of the one power went out of whack. Though women remained sane…..after three thousand years of dominance and hidding behind screens of integrity (the oaths), they have become just as damaged as the men.
Additionally, with Ishamael loose for the last 300o years, his influence and corruption is all over the female Aes Sedai. The White Tower has been crawling with dark friends since its founding.
It’s time for the Female Aes Sedai to eat some humble pie. It’s time for the servants to be servants. It’s time for balance.
I love the idea of Rand and Tam sparring. Rand is now a man. This is like father and son playing catch. Or, even better Rand is learning the sword again. There is plenty of evidence that he will have to use sword play against the DO.
Equally as good is them fighting side by side.
@198 Wetlandernw
I think it’s more of a matter of whether the weave was tied off or not.
@freelancer/dancefever
Cheers for the correction, soon as you guys put that post down I remembered Moiraines conversation.
As for the newest qoute, I hope this comes about from the FoM conversation. Though I enjoy the male vs female clashes that happen throughout the series, mostly, it gets annoying sometimes. I really hope Rand’s ultimatum is handled well by the opposition, and that his memories retained from LT is recongnised for what they are, and not mistaken for insanity.
On a side note, I had a possible theory in my head for how Rand might deal with the DO, thought i’d post it here, see what others think. Min’s research of Callandor in Towers of Midnight made me think of it, when she reads the line “the blade is held before the maw, and all that he is can be seized”(probably incorrect qoute, but you get the gist)
My thought is, now that Rand can channel the True Power(at least once, probably again), I believe that the flaw of Callandor is that the TP can be channeled through it, along with the regular power. I think that Rand, along with the two women, will channel both the source and the TP, “all that he is can be seized”(The Dark One), and use both to rebuild the break in the prison containing him. Maybe using the DO’s own power against him to keep him trapped. Thoughts?
@@@@@ Wetlandernw 200 If it will make you feel even better, I’m 62 and have been reading along since The Dragon Reborn came out in hardcover. This series has ruined me as far as reading other fantasy as nothing else ever seems to live up to it.
beev 205 I think your idea of Calender channeling both TP and the OP is intereting. If something has to be touching the DO in order to keep him contained, better it be the TP then the OP which would be subject to the taint.
@205 beev
However, the True Power is subject to the Dark One giving permission to channel it, permission he surely wouldn’t grant if Rand was trying to use it against him.
@205. beev – Good theory. Sounds plausible. Add to it some influence/participation of both Fain and Isam. There are clues in the text that both these characters will play a part at the end.
Am I right WoT community?
“What he’s done” might have to do with her dream of Rand hacking at ropes that hold together a large crystal sphere beneath 23 stars, causing the sphere to break apart. Assuming the stars represent the nations that Rand means to unite, the dream could mean he single-handedly shatters Aes Sedai influence over these nations and tie them together with stronger bonds, under a more lasting peace. She might grudgingly admit to being outplayed, especially since he had provoked her into gathering the monarchs of those nations together for his meeting. The dream for those who don’t recall reads:
The dark one does not know that Rand’s ability to draw on the True Power is via the side door of the link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth when Rand was hunting Sammael. Therefore, Rand could channel the True Power unhindered, because the dark one would only detect Moridin’s access being drawn upon.
However, if the dark one sensed the True Power being channeled at Shayol Ghul, he would certainly terminate all access double quick. Then what? Attempting to use his own essence against him, just doesn’t add up as a wise tactic.
Out-of-frame, I cannot conceive of Jordan writing a victorious result in the story, by using the power of evil to defeat evil.
@210 Freelancer
The first part of what you said, has it been confirmed anywhere that this is why Rand was able to channel the True Power? I don’t recall reading anything, so I’d appreciate the reminder.
Looney theory re: the True Power: What if it turns out that you don’t need the DO’s permission to access it – but that’s just something the FS believe? They’re hardly infallible, after all, and it would be in the DO’s interest to let them think that.
Not really thought through the details but I quite like the idea of Rand somehow tearing control of the TP away from the DO and using it to reseal the Bore.
I always viewed Rand’s ability to channel the TP as a “gift” from the DO to Rand to corrupt him, having Semmirhage bring him to the edge of despair before quietly offering him power. Rand immediately becomes much darker at this point.
“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in
the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it
sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held
together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a
woodman’s axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the
ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the
sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand
shook his head.”
–i just had a thought, the term 23 stars. could this mean the 7 ajah sitters, the keeper and the amyrlin?
@tenkuu
I don’t think it has been “confirmed”(as in, within canon), but is probably a popular theory. Rand’s link with Ishy/Moridin has been a big side-piece throughout the series, and I think it goes back all the way to the first chapter of EOTW. Ishy confronting Lews at the soon-to-be Dragonmount, talking of how the battle between them has raged for untold time throughout the ages. Perhapse this has formed the bond between them, the reincarnations of these two beings fighting through-out the ages creating some type of connection. I like to think(though obviously could be wrong) that this age, this confrontation, is the final fight between the Shadow and the Light, and that the Pattern has formed this bond between two of the leaders of the opposing factions to balance the scales, to allow the Light a chance to finally defeat the Shadow (it seems a running theme that the Shadow always out-powers the Light ie. Trolloc Wars, the taint of the power, etc.). So, while it hasn’t been proven HOW Rand accessed the True Power, the bond between him and Moridin seems plausible.
As for the DO shutting off Rand’s access to the TP, I like to think that once channeled through Callandor, and the weaves/threads begun, the DO would be unable to stop it. This could be wrong, but that’s the way the theory formed in my head. I guess we’ll see in a few short weeks!
Another thing that I wondered on, is what are the rest of the channelers doing while Rand and the two women required to wield Callandor are doing their thing? Will it end with a giant circle, hundreds upon hundreds of women and men(assuming the Light deals with The Black Tower in a way that leaves enough alive/sided with the Light),with Rand and the two women(I’m going to assume Nynaeve and Alivia, or possibly Nynaeve/Moiraine) controlling the weaves? Or perhapse the channelers will be needed elsewhere, obviously there is going to be a lot of trollocs and myrrdral running about. In the end, what I’m most excited about, is the revelations that Moiraine will bring about when she reunites with the main characters.
Btw, loving these discussions, very freshing to have a community to talk out these theories with!
What is this quote about Egwene and crystal globe?
I don’t remember reading it…
ChaosBlack,
The quote is from Egwenes dream in chapter 3 of ToM.
Tenkuu,
Freelancer is talking about tGS signing he went to, BS confirmed to him that what he said is correct, though later on he backed off that he had said that.
From three different interview occasions with Brandon Sanderson, the first by me at a signing event for The Gathering Storm, the second a planned interview with Theresa Gray, the third by Matt Hatch:
Q: Is Rand’s access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?
BWS: No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One’s permission.*
Q: Does one typically have to visit Shayol Ghul to be granted permission to use the True Power?
BWS: Um… Yes. I see what you’re fishing for there.
Q: There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark One’s permission, so for clarification’s sake, did Rand have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power?
BWS: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording: generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it.
*Note: In reference to Samadai’s comment @217, I transcribed more of an answer to my question at the time, part of which Brandon later denied saying. I have left that out, so that only what he has stipulated as having answered remains, lest there be any further question.
So, you do the math.
Those who believe that the dark one knowingly gave Rand access to the True Power, just in time to destroy the Domination Band, balefire Semirhage and Elza, as some sort of acceleration for him turning to the shadow, must answer several questions adequately:
Why would the shadow prefer the deaths of a Chosen and a Black sister over the death of Rand’s closest lover, and a source of prophetic visions?
Why would the shadow prefer Rand to be free and autonomous again, immediately after putting him under the direct control of one of it’s leading agents?
Why would the shadow prefer the possibility that Rand’s decisions would continue to lead him on a spiral downward to utter hopelessness, despair and conviction to join their cause, rather than take him to Shayol Ghul in the company of thirteen myrddraal and thirteen channelers?
And there can be easily another dozen like those. Oh yes, Rand suffered anguish and pain of heart that he had nearly killed Min, but that ended the day that she convinced him that her love for him hadn’t changed in the slightest because of that day. Yes, he suffered the heartache of having killed two women, something he promised himself he wouldn’t do since the darkfriend merchant on his journey to Tear, but in doing so he saved Min, himself, and uncounted others in that place whom Semirhage would surely have had him destroy under her control.
Again, you do the math. I have a hard time finding any value for the shadow in what happened to recommend that it was done deliberately. Semirhage had just long enough when Rand destroyed the Domination Band to realize that he had to be using the True Power to do so, causing her to think that Rand must have been given access by the dark one, and her only conclusion could be one of betrayal, that she was being sacrificed by the dark one. But if Rand’s access was through an unexpected source, she could never know that, and couldn’t arrive at any other conclusion, so her logic is unreliable.
And you don’t feel a small measure of pride? Egwene asked herself. Rand al’Thor, once simple village boy and your near-betrothed, now the most powerful man in the world? You don’t feel proud of what he’s done?
To me, this matches, in style, other debates we have seen throughout the series where the POV character upbraids or challenges someone else for something then mentally calls themself to task for chiding while he/she harbors the same feelings. “. . . proud of what he’s done” could refer to all that Rand has achieved not one specific act. So something like:
Elayne: “Look at all he’s done since leaving the Two River’s Mother!”
Equwene: “Pride in HIS actions is dangersous for an Aes Sedai”
“And you don’t feel a small measure of pride? Egwene asked . . . “
@218 Freelancer, Thank you!
Doing the Math leaves me with a (at least to me ;-) new crazy theory:
Somewhere Rand has found a _Well_ of the True Power.
Might fit in with Hawkido’s scabbard theory.
@218
Men turned to the shadow via myrddraal appear to be less autonomous agents than an embodiment of shadow. I think the DO would much prefer to corrupt and bring whole to him Rand and LTT than simply turning him.
Semmirhage at this point had failed numerous times, and the DO is hardly forgiving. If sacrificing Semmirhage gets Rand to accept the TP, which we know to be extremely corrupting, I could see the DO being willing to do that. He would know better than anyone what someone might do once having access to the TP.
@221 Abstieg
Hopefully, wipe and get of the pot!
I’ve been reading this rehash of the notion that Rand can somehow use the True Power against the Dark One; it’s a theory that keeps coming up, even though it simply cannot work. I decided to try and clarify what I think are the major unrecognized failings of the idea.
In order for this to work, the True Power would have to be something separate from the Dark One himself; something that he controls completely, and only allows others to touch with his permission, but still separate from him. If that were the case, then the idea of Rand wresting control of it from the DO would be plausible. But that is not the case.
The True Power is the essence of the Dark One. It is not just “part of” him – it is him. Or, as Lews Therin screamed inside Rand’s head,
This is not something separate to which the Dark One controls all access. It is himself, and as such it cannot be used against himself. It can be used against his minions, against Shadowspawn, against Forsaken, against the world – but it cannot be used against him. He is, as Robert Jordan explicitly stated, the single source of the True Power. It would be like trying to use your own breath to block you from blowing out a candle – it simply can’t be done. Other air, yes; other Power, yes; but not the same breath, and not the same Power.
The other major failing of the theory, as I see it, is more a matter of one’s personal opinion of Robert Jordan and the kind of story he was telling. Was he writing the kind of story in which the hero could use evil means to fight Evil? In a way this doesn’t even need to be argued, because of the first point, but just for the sake of argument I’ll do it anyway. We have seen Rand use evil against evil in one sense: by using the evil of Shadar Logoth to siphon the True Power taint off saidin. But was that use the same as channeling the True Power to fight evil? I don’t think so.
Based on (very personal) observation that the two wounds in his side were fighting one another, and that fact was the only thing that kept either one from killing him, Rand realized that if he could bring the two evils into near contact, they would attack each other and, if all went well, annihilate each other. As we know, it worked. But notice that Rand did not touch the evil of Shadar Logoth; he did not channel it or manipulate it except by bringing himself close enough to it that it would, by its nature, begin to fight against the Taint that he was channeling nearby.
I would argue that this is not at all the same thing as channeling the essence of the Dark One via the True Power. He did not show any of the signs (we saw them with both Mat and Fain) of contamination by Mordeth; he did not actually come in contact with Mordeth or his evilness. When he channeled the True Power to destroy the Domination Band, Semirhage and Elza, we saw the effect: further hardening, further darkening, and a visible dark aura. (It’s possible that this last is a Fisher King artifact, but I think it’s the TP effect.) Channeling Evil, bringing it inside you, filling yourself with it, using it… this cannot be a good thing, and I don’t think it’s what Jordan intended for Rand to do to win the final battle. It was part of his downward spiral; I don’t see how it can be part of his victory for the Light.
It comes back, then, to the question: what kind of story do you think Robert Jordan was telling? I think he was telling a story about conflict between Light and Dark, Good and Evil. He recognized the shades of grey in human nature, but he also recognized the absolutes of Good and Evil. I believe he was telling a story about the triumph of the Light over the Dark, and I believe he had a sufficiently classical view of the world that he would not write it in such a way that the hero had to become Evil to win.
The other, more simple, answer to the argument is that of multiple foreshadowing. We’ve seen displayed (three times now) the effect of the evil of Aridhol when in conflict with the True Power. We have one remaining concentrated embodiment of Mordeth, and he’s running around up in the Blight right now. He needs to be eliminated from the world, as does the Dark One. It’s a much more logical solution than having Rand try to channel the Dark One to kill the Dark One.
The Memories of Light included in week three were:
15. “It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.
16. “Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic.”
17. “It is one of the three things which I will require of you. Your payment, to me, in exchange for my life.”
18. Fortuona ignored her, standing. “This woman is my new Soe’feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known.”
19. “What did you do to your eye?” “A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers.”
20. As Tam attacked again, Rand lifted the sword and-
21. And you don’t feel a small measure of pride?Egwene asked herself. Rand al’Thor, once simple village boy and your near-betrothed, now the most powerful man in the world? You don’t feel proud of what he’s done?
@215 beev
Wasn’t Lews Therin terrified of the True Power when Rand used it? That would suggest that it would be a very bad thing for Rand to use again.
@218 Freelancer
I guess the only real problem I have with the idea that he might have accessed the True Power through the link with Moridin is that we haven’t had any sort of reaction so far from Moridin, and I would think we’d get one. Or maybe we will in the last book. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me to think that he neither would have noticed this happening, nor would have some kind of thoughts on the matter.
@220 Dancefever
I don’t think the Well option is a possibility considering that the True Power is the Dark One’s essence, ie the Dark One himself.
@218 Freelancer
Another thing came to mind. I think Dreadlords are a dime a dozen, and the Dark One knows that. With his resources and the Forsaken’s ability to hide themselves among allies, especially when Rand is still “blind” to the Dark One’s way of doing things and the Aes Sedai for the most part not believing in the existence of a Black Ajah, it’s relatively easy for the Dark One to capture channelers, even Aes Sedai, and not to mention what’s currently happening at the Black Tower. While the Dreadlords have numerical value, this wouldn’t apply to the Dragon Reborn; it’s more useful, and probably a greater victory in his mind as well, for the Dark One to have corrupted the Dragon Reborn through natural means. So to answer your questions:
Why would the shadow prefer the deaths of a Chosen and a Black sister
over the death of Rand’s closest lover, and a source of prophetic
visions?
Because like Abstieg says @221, not only is the Dark One not forgiving of the Forsaken’s mistakes, he would also be more than willing to sacrifice them to achieve his goals. After all, not only does he encourage competition among them, but they, I suppose like all evil ones, do not even consider the idea of working together to defeat their opponents. Also, there is the fact that a naturally corrupted Rand has more value to the Dark One as being able to do more damage on his own without the Dark One even having to do anything.
Why would the shadow prefer Rand to be free and autonomous again,
immediately after putting him under the direct control of one of it’s
leading agents?
The Shadow is tricky, after all, and Semirhage had already failed before. And again as Abstieg said @221, those turned forcefully to the Shadow appear to be less capable, and of course, as I said above, it is easier to use a naturally corrupted Rand than it is to turn him. It also works better with the general theme of how evil works. And yes, Rand was free, but in his state of mind, he was free to cause more corruption to the world, so the Dark One wouldn’t have had any problems with that.
Why would the shadow prefer the possibility that Rand’s decisions would
continue to lead him on a spiral downward to utter hopelessness, despair
and conviction to join their cause, rather than take him to Shayol Ghul
in the company of thirteen myrddraal and thirteen channelers?
Because that’s how evil works. It’s an essential component of evil that it’s your own decisions, and lack of good judgement, that should ultimately be your downfall. Of course the Dark One would prefer Rand to come to him rather than having to take him by force and turn him to the Shadow. Also, the more convinced a minion is of the cause of evil, the more loyal they are to it. I’ve read enough manga and anime to know the truth of that.
I don’t buy any of that, for one reason. Bad guys don’t like gambling when they don’t have to. Leaving the Dragon with free will to fight their temptation isn’t in their game plan, it never was. The only forsaken who was truly willing to leave him to his own devices was Lanfear, but only because her greater passion was for him to be hers.
There is simply no reasonable explanation for finally, FINALLY, capturing him in a way which could control him without turning or Compelling him (the male a’dam), and then immediately giving him the means to 1) Escape; 2) Destroy a forsaken and a Black Ajah sister; 3) still be in control of his own steps.
Wetlandernw @223
I would adjust one point in your argument, with which I agree wholeheartedly. You said:
What happened at the cleansing was that the taint from saidin was poured into Shadar Logoth, where the two disparate evils were different enough from one another to destroy both. It was saidar which was used to press the taint out of the male half of the Power.
So, as the remaining artifact of the evil of Aridhol, do you think that Fain is somehow the perfect sealant for a new patch, since it would allow no seepage of the True Power, of a new taint? A far better posit than that he becomes a new dark one himself.
Freelancer @227 – Well, I wasn’t entirely happy with the wording there, but didn’t have any more free time to smith it. :) The point was that he “used” Aridhol, in one sense, during the cleansing – but he didn’t “use” it in the same sense that one “uses” a Power while channeling. Mostly it was a matter of addressing that particular “use of evil” and clarifying that it’s not at all the same thing as using the TP would be.
Yes, I do believe that Fain (or his “power” – his form of evil) will be the “something” that has to touch the DO. There’s no evidence that Mordeth can actually taint the One Power, so it would be safe to place a One Power-made seal touching that – and there you have the perfect insulator between the One Power and the Dark One/True Power. (And no, I don’t for a second buy the idea that Fain becomes a new dark one. It doesn’t fit the world-building, IMO.)
22.”Why are you helping me?” Perrin demanded. “I’m fond of you, Perrin.”
#22. It is definitely a woman talking to Perrin. Cannot be Faile or Berelain as Perrin wouldn’t ask them. I think it is an Aes Sedai who knows Perrin well enough to be on a first name basis which rules out Elayne. He wouldn’t ask “why” to Egwene or Nynaeve and the latter at least wouldn’t ever reply like that.
I have a feeling it is Alanna he’s talking to. She knows him well enough to talk to him in this tone, and being wary he’d demand to know why she’s helping him. Nobody else seems to fit the role. The Aiel wise or the nobility(Morgase/Alliandre) wouldn’t claim to be fond of Perrin. Perrin wouldn’t ever demand something from Min.
Alanna seems to be the only one who he’ll be suspicious of, but still willing to talk to, and she does seem like the kinds to give this reply.
#23. This is definitely between Rand and Mat, with Rand finding out that Mat is the Prince of Ravens…
@227 Freelancer
Never in their game plan, you say? You seem to be forgetting that for a few books, it was a rather large part of their game plan, or did we not read the same ending to book 6? As for the rest, well, I’m sure you’ve heard of this.
Fortuona ignored her, standing. “This woman is my new Soe’feia. Holy woman, she who may not be touched. We have been blessed. Let it be known.”
This must be an Aes Sedai who has proven herself to be an Aes Sedai in the eyes of the Empress, may she love Mat forever.
Maybe Fortuona’s new Soe’Feia is the woman once know as Lanfear?
You do excel Leigh, my thanks for adding much to my wot experience.
Read it – Satisfied? yes.
I do agree that Brandon has delivered what was believed impossible, an Robert Jordon final novel befitting the story as told.
I felt it a bit strange that both Mordin & Demandred demonstrated so little control during the tLB. Events overtook them, they became reactionary rather than the awesome proactive Chosen we had come to expect, as demonstrated by Lanfear. Rand and Min stole their mojo, and wasn’t Mat mindbogglingly brilliant. They planned where others just hoped.
A re-read is a must ……..
thanks team Jordan