I was barely 20 and when I first met Harlan Ellison in the too brightly lit cafeteria of South Mountain Community College in Phoenix, Arizona. I had driven with a posse of fellow booksellers to see the infamous SF legend speak at the college, and after what can only be described as Ellison doing stand-up comedy, I made him sign my copy of Troublemakers, got my picture taken with him and then arrogantly told him to remember me. He responded, “Sure kid.”
And more than a decade later, I’m happy to report Harlan Ellison still calls me “kid,” and is just as charmingly outrageous as ever.
Last week, over the phone, Harlan and I discussed the recent re-release of his very first 1958 novel Web of the City, now being reissued by publisher Hard Case Crime. But truly, any discussion with Harlan Ellison won’t be limited to the boundaries of one subject. Most interviews I’ve conducted with authors are a kind of sound-byte piracy: I swoop in and scoop out from their brains exactly what I need to create the perfect piece.
But chatting with Harlan Ellison isn’t like that! It’s the most fun you’re going to have in an interview, but it’s not really an interview. It’s a shoot-out at the O.K. Corral. Sure, these bullets might be rubber, but you’re definitely not just going to get what you think you want. You’re going to have to earn it.
“You’re three days late!” Ellison growled after I introduced myself. This is unfortunately true, and possibly my fault. I decided to remind him that not only did we meet over ten years ago, but also that we spoke on the phone in 2011. That time I talked with Harlan Ellison he thanked me for an article I’d written on Tor.com about a short story of his called “How Interesting: A Tiny Man.”
Luckily he remembered this and said, “Well, I try to be punctilious in these matters,” and then laughed like a jolly gargoyle.
Web of the City, Ellison’s first novel, is in essence a snapshot of gang violence on the streets of New York City, capturing a time and circumstances—an entire universe—which doesn’t exist anymore. The novel concerns the machinations of Rusty as he attempts to leave a gang called the Cougars, who will surely kill him for this transgression. Ellison based much of the character of Rusty and the events of the book on his own experiences in being in a Brooklyn-based street gang at a young age. But just how much of the book is really Harlan Ellison? A lot!
“A lot of Rusty’s background parallels my background on the road as a kid, because I was off on my own very young, age 13. A lot of the scrambling and the shoe leather is autobiographical. The rest of it is just straight action adventure.”
But the New York City of Rusty is not the New York City of now. Having lived in New York City for almost a decade myself, I tried to figure out just how much of Harlan Ellison’s New York and the New York of Web of the City has changed. Ellison tells it like this:
“It’s a very different city now than it was then. And I haven’t been back since before 9/11. But that may be a lie…I remember my city, my New York very clearly. I can walk those streets, but all those people are gone and one by one all the places I went are gone.”
In the introduction to this new edition of Web of the City, Ellison writes of a possible legend about Ernest Hemingway intentionally destroying his first novel. From the introduction:
Yes, the story goes, Hemingway had written a book before The Sun Also Rises, and there he was aboard a ship, steaming either here or there; and he was at the rail, leaning over, thinking, and then he took the boxed manuscript of the book…and threw it into the ocean. Apparently on the theory that no one should ever read a writer’s first novel.
And yet, here we have a reissue of Harlan Ellison’s first novel! I demanded to know from Ellison if we younger writers should all be throwing our first novels into the ocean. As with most of the questions I presented him, his first response was a peal of laughter followed by an amused response:
“The question is an acerbic one…I read so little these days…things coming out are of so little interest to me…that I’m the last savant in the line to ask this question whether their work should be shitcanned.”
This part of the conversation segued into asking what Ellison watches on TV these days. “The test pattern,” he quipped, referring to the bars of color that appeared on CRT televisions, allowing you to adjust your set to its optimal settings. I assured him I was 31, and able to remember such things, but Ellison was nevertheless suspicious and fired back with, “31? I have software older than that!”
One of my favorite anecdotes about Harlan Ellison is the fact that he supposedly wrote his short story “Pretty Maggie Moneyeyes” completely in the nude and that he frequently wrote naked. So I wanted to know, what’s the deal with Harlan Ellison writing naked? He chuckled mischievously before saying this:
“Well it has been fairly recurrent. I wear whatever it is I’m wearing, when I get the urge to write, so if I get out of bed at two in the morning and wanna write I haven’t got the time or the patience to throw on pajamas…but in Vegas when I wrote that story, I did write it naked…God knows why. But that’s like asking ‘why did you put on shoes this morning.’ What is, is.”
Returning to the more serious matter of Web of the City’s relentless violence, I couldn’t help but feel a connection between these switchblade-wielding gang members and some of the other more malevolent forces in Ellison’s SF stories, specifically the sadistic computer from “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream.” In that story, humans are tortured endlessly by something they once programmed, but I wondered, are we as a species able to escape our cycle of violence? From street gangs of the past to killer artificial intelligence of the future, where does it end?
“We are a very strange species. On the one hand we have Picasso’s paintings, on the other we have the AK-47. And some people are literarily drawn to the physical art of weaponry. If you take a knife, a knife can carve meat, it can carve a whistle for a child, it can be used for sculpting, or it’s a murder implement. A gun can’t do anything but kill!…I don’t know if we can ever escape this. I mean, we’re a fairly young species, but we don’t show a lot of promise.”
To this, I asked Ellison if it was possible that fiction like his own might shine a light in the darkness and maybe, just possibly, help make humanity more aware of the violence it commits. He laughed again before responding:
“You must have mistaken me somewhere for someone who has some knowledge! It is hard to go through life as I have, being a guy who thinks we’ve had a good chance at it and we should turn it over to the cockroaches…BUT every once and awhile there is a ray of light. Every once and while there is an actor, or an artist or a philosopher who says or does something that makes a tiny difference. And for me now, at an upstanding age, I’m no longer the buccaneer, I have to be a little more philosophical…I cannot give you an answer. I’m not that wise!”
While the author’s relative wisdom still up for debate, Harlan Ellison is at least famous enough to be considered on wider platforms. The week before our interview Harlan Ellison recorded a guest spot on The Simpsons.
“I finally made my appearance on The Simpsons. They’d written a Harlan Ellison part for Harlan Ellison. And apart from taking a tumble out of chair in the writers room…it was great fun. And everyone said ‘YOU’RE FAMOUS NOW!’”
But Ellison has always been famous to me and one of my favorite old-school stunts of his was the writing of new short stories in public. Whether in bookshop windows, on the floors of conventions, in art galleries or outside, Harlan Ellison used to frequently sit around and create stories in the interests of reminding people that writing is a real job and quite hard work. I asked him a little bit about his feelings of doing this public writing and what he felt like it meant to people.
“It’s a dog and pony trick…I work well under pressure and most people don’t. Most people look at writing not as a holy chore, but something beyond means. Most other people think it appears magically. A kid came up to me sitting in public [writing on a typewriter] at an art show…and he looked at me punching away on the typewriter and said to his mother ‘What is that thing?’ And she said ‘That’s a typewriter,’ but he couldn’t figure out what it was. So I said ‘It’s magic! I think into it and what I want comes out!’ And he screamed ‘Mommy, mommy, you gotta get me one!’”
This, to me, couldn’t be a greater representation of the dark magic that is Harlan Ellison; lying to a child about the magic of a typewriter, while somehow also telling the child the truth. Even though he might misdirect you with faux-pomposity or a seemingly cynical view of the failure of the human race, he’s actually a laughing chuckling wizard with more in common with Socrates than he lets on. Harlan Ellison’s work is there to make us talk about it and Harlan Ellison is here, maybe even unwittingly, as an example of those rare artists who occasionally make a difference.
Underneath all the humorous bluster, Harlan Ellison loves you, whether you like it or not. Because as I got off the phone with Harlan, the last thing he said to me was: “keep it up, kid.”
This interview took place over the phone on April 15th 2013 and was made possible by Hard Case Crime. Check out Web of the City on Hard Case Crime’s website.
Ryan Britt is a long time contributor to Tor.com.
Unfortunately, I have this terrible vice. A horrible revulsion which has stopped me from fully enjoying or even participating in the content of many a creator’s work. I am trying to get over it, but it’s just not working.
If I find the personality, values, or attitude toward society of an artist, performer, or creator offensive to me, I do not purchase, read, or otherwise become involved with their work. I do not read articles or blogs about them. No matter how much I yearn to consume their work. I hate myself for it. Harlan Ellison is just such an author and creator. So are Corey Doctorow and Steven Morrissey. I would like to think that I can decouple the artist from their work. Perhaps someday. This article has helped me along that path to recovery.
This was/is great, thank you. What a trip this guy is.
I haven’t read Web and will have to pick up the new re-issue. The non-fictional version of his time in the street gang, Memos from Purgatory is very good. It was a different world then.
While “Web of the City” was Harlan’s first novel, he had been doing a lot of writing before that.
Good interview.
1.designguybrown
I feel the same way about some creators as you do & I used to beat myself up about it. Then I realized there is already more out there than I can consume in my lifetime, with more coming out every day. I already have to make choices about what I will or won’t read/watch, so I’ve become fine with passing on certain creators’ works.
@3
I have Memos From Purgatory, it’s sitting on my desk looking at me right now! It’s great, because I teach a Memoir course in NYC and it’s so wonderful to compare it with Web of the City in terms of talking about where stories come from and our choices as writers to render them one way or another! :-)
My own encounter with Harlen Ellison was memorable and annoying (like the man himself). He hates wireless laptops (calling them “Damn Wikipedia Machines”), he hates Wikipedia, and he really despises getting factchecked while pontificating.
Somewhat at odds with his famous quip: “You don’t have a right to an opinion, you have a right to an informed opinion.”
@6:That sounds like a good exercise–I may try that.
Saw him speak once…said he always wrote one draft…no edits, no rewrites. Wonder if true. If so, that’s hard work.
I was checking into a hotel with my brother for a convention in Madison, when Harlan interupted our check in process (politely), to ask the attendant to send a bellhop out to help Gene Wolfe with his bags. It was a very sureal moment.
Mak, as I recall The Essential Ellison put HE’s “Xenogenesis”, an essay sharply critical of the terrible things an overdeveloped sense of entitlement led fans to do, very near HE’s essay on the terrible things HE has done to people who offended him. The effect was quite striking.
AUGH. IN MY BRAIN THAT READ “MARK”!
I find Harlan Ellison as a person a little intimadating but I enjoy his tv and several short stories he’s written. I’d like to here him speak in person one day . I think.
@designguybrown: But you had to make sure and take the time to let us all know your opinion, right? I have a vice, too: I can’t suppress my annoyance at people who think that conspicuously disapproving of things gives them credibility or makes them interesting.
I admit upfront that I am partial: When a youth, Harlan befriended me for no good reason, and not once but many times.
That admission made, it seems evident that Harlan Ellison has built a legacy that will transcend his life; whether via his writing, like it or not, or his life, like it or not. I liked and treasured both.
But perhaps even more than his writing and life is his stance: to every buyer of his work he would state, in essence, this far and no farther. Or, in his words, “Pay the writer!” This arguably is Harlan’s true legacy, one from which every writer benefits. Even if they never heard of the man.
Of course we all still have the work and the man. We can turn a blind eye to each, or delve into the riches he provides. I choose to partake, and would even for my admission above. I, and my life, are the richer for it.
Thank you, Harlan. Best wishes to you and Susan.
Yeah, he is a good writer.
About 1/3 as good as he thinks he is.
Amazing how he can be such a “controversial” character. I distinctly remember reading him for the first time, about fifteen yards from where the University Troll that lived under the Student Union bridge was devouring its latest … and being blown away by his style and the incisive and humorous way he cut into the characters and the topics of the short stories I was reading.
I’d only encountered that with a few other authors, such as Cordwainer Smith and Richard Calder …
Use a blunt knife ….
Haraln Ellison has two problems I can see when it comes to the public’s perception of him: 1) he refuses to put on a benign act when he’s angry, tired, or frustrated; 2) he can sometimes use people as fodder for his anecdotes, and forgets that they are real people with feelings that may get hurt. I have no problem with the former, but find the latter at times disturbing. What one must remember when dealing with Ellison, however, is how alone in the world he has often been, how he’s walked a tightrope without a net. Nobody gave him anything in life, and he’s had to take what he’s gotten and look after himself, all while living his life his way. Tough and uncompromising people tend to be less than warm and cuddly. That he’s gone over the line to rude and cruel he would be the first to admit.
And, he’s an outstanding artist.
Harlan Ellison is one of our greatest writers…and personalities…sometimes, it feels like he doesn’t know which he wants to be or be remembered as (if he cares to be remembered at all).
Like many, I have my own Harlan story…two, actually. Back in the 80s I was working at a community radio station and I got the idea to do Flop Sweat as a radio play…even got the promos done before I realized I better get the author’s approval. I don’t know how I got his phone number, but I did…and called…not my smartest move. I think his first words were, “who the fuck is this?” Eventually, he told me the rights were not available. The second time was at a comic convention (I have done comic art, amongst other types of art). The guy watching the door as I was coming in didn’t recognize Ellison, who didn’t have his badge. I yelled something like, “yeah, you should let him in for sure.” He let Ellison in, but I don’t know if it was because of my vouching for him or if the doorman thought Ellison was going to spontaneously combust. Good times.
My firs (and sole in-person)t encounter with Harlan Ellison was in college in 1969 or 1970. The university put on a 10-week symposium of science fiction, and each week we had a different writer on campus, talking in our seminars, and living with us in the dorms. Among the 10 writers I remember most vividly were Frank Herbert, Phillip Klass (who wrote as William Tenn), and Harlan Ellison.
While as a group, the ten writers were unbelievably exciting in terms of the ideas and concepts we shared (I could do 10000 words alone on what I heard from Phillip Klass and how it changed my ways of thinking), also wonderful was the opportunity to interact with them socially – just on the level of other human beings – also a very eye-opening experience.
The only negative from the entire 10 weeks came from Harlan Ellison. Each Monday evening, the first night of the author’s residence, the university would host a party in the dorm’s common room in honor of the writer. That was supposed to be the first and principal opportunity to interact with them outside of a structured classroom or speaking situation.
Well, 10 minutes after the start of the party, Harlan Ellison picks up one of the students and the two of them disappear for the rest of the evening (presumably back to his room).
Virtually every student there (except, presumably the girl who accompanied him) was hugely offended to be dissed by him in this way. I decided at that point I loated the man and would never read a single word he wrote. I chose to cut the classes where he spoke and probably would still have that attitutde today if I hadn’t read David Gerrold’s book about this experiences writing for of the original Star Trek series and there learned that Harlan Ellison write “The City on the Edge of Forever.” Well, damn! How could such a great writer be such a jerk. I then read everything else he’d written by that time that I could lay my hands on.
It can be very painful to realize that brilliance does not necessarily a wonderful human being make, but it’s a good lesson to learn, and it’s let me separate the work from the person. There is one writer whose work I regularly read and emjoy who was a convicted murderer. I wouldn’t want to spend a weekend with her, but she’s a very good writer.
I know that my life has been enriched and challenged by Harlan Ellison’s writings, and even though I still think he was a rotten jerk on that evening over 40 years ago, I’m glad I didn’t deny myself the pleasure and stimulation I’ve gotten from his work.
Your mileage may vary.
Lee Sauer
@Nat Bumpo, I worked in Harlan’s office for a year when I got out of grad school, quite along while ago, now. He does indeed write a single draft, typing with two fingers on an old Olympia manual typewriter. A few times I did note that he would carefully black out a word to delete it, but it would be the only alteration in an otherwise pristine manuscript.
Ryan: I’m curious about “Ellison based much of the character of Rusty and the events of the book on his own experiences in being in a Brooklyn-based street gang at a young age.” IIRC, he was “on his own” in Cleveland (sourcing “Jeffty Is Five”, “One Life, Furnished in Early Poverty”, etc.) and went to college in that part of the U.S.; I recall an essay telling how he got the material for “Web of the City” by taking the alias “Cheech Beldone” after he’d quit college and moved to NYC. I don’t know how much of the essay is true — the version I read had an afterword saying that at least one of the later coincidences was not all true — but it made riveting reading.
Refusing to read Ellison because you can’t stand the style is understandable; he’s intense. Refusing because you don’t like him is purblind — aside from his effect on the field, his own work is stunning — and debatable, considering how often he’s used that personality for the benefit of other writers.
Ryan: I’m curious about “Ellison based much of the character of Rusty and the events of the book on his own experiences in being in a Brooklyn-based street gang at a young age.” IIRC, he was “on his own” in Cleveland (sourcing “Jeffty Is Five”, “One Life, Furnished in Early Poverty”, etc.) and went to college in that part of the U.S.; I recall an essay telling how he got the material for “Web of the City” by taking the alias “Cheech Beldone” after he’d quit college and moved to NYC. I don’t know how much of the essay is true — the version I read had an afterword saying that at least one of the later coincidences was not all true — but it made riveting reading.
Refusing to read Ellison because you can’t stand the style is understandable; he’s intense. Refusing because you don’t like him is purblind — aside from his effect on the field, his own work is stunning — and debatable, considering how often he’s used that personality for the benefit of other writers.
Great writer. I’ve been reading him for years. But there is a reason many of us from way-back-when called him Arlen Hellison. If you don’t like him, don’t read him: more for me.
Shortly after “Shatterday” came out I was at a convention listening to Hellison speak. In the middle of his talk, an obviously pregnant woman lumbered to her feet and wadled to the door. Seeing the woman, Harlan paused in his talk and yelled, “Where the he** do you think you’re going?”
The woman answered, “To the restrooms.”
To which Harlan replied, “Back to your seat! No one leaves until I’m done.”
This I witnessed myself. The rest is hear say. A science fiction show that played in Canada was designed and mostly written by Ellison. He had his name removed from the credits and replaced with a fake name. Ellison said he wouldn’t have his name on something if it had been changed by others.
The Star Trek show “City on the Edge of Forever” was written by Harlen Ellison. Ellison had been given a Star Trek Bible so that he could familiarize himself with the characters. The finished script had Dr McCoy as a drug dealer and addict. He ODs and that’s how he ends up on the planet. It was, of course, changed. That much is verifiable. The heresay is Ellison sued.
I read two of the man’s short stories and found them both to be good work. I still won’t read any more of his stuff. I have a short time on this earth as does everyone. There are so many books out there written by decent people who also write well. Why should I choose to give my money to trolls like Ellison when I can read Prachett instead?
Boy, right when I was about to note that I read “Web of the City” long ago thanks to a librarian who chose to stock my local public library with a large selection of Ellison and express my gratification that it’s available again when I note the preceding comment repeating the fiction about any ST regular being portayed as a drug dealer and addict in any iteration of “City.” Short answer: no. Please get your facts straight. It is not “verifiable.” Just read the original treatments (might be out of print now, but Ellison had them published through White Wolf ages ago–definitely worth picking up; barring that, at least just read the Wikipedia article on “City,” which does a good job of summing up the various treatments). For that matter, the Dr. McCoy reference added here is a twist on the original mispresentation of the facts, as (the quite humanly fallible) Gene Roddenberry in his obfuscations claimed Ellison had presented *Scotty* as a drug dealer and addict. It was never Scotty. Or McCoy. It was . . . Beckwith (like I said, read the treatments). And someone who I don’t recall now finally got Roddenberry to admit he had been misrepresenting Ellison’s treatments all along, at least on this point. Sigh.
Anyway, glad to see “Web” is back in print.
@26
The show would have been “The Starlost”, and afaik he never kept his name off it. If he had done, he would usually have used the pseudonym “Cordwainer Bird”.
I understand not reading – and implicitly supporting – authors who hold offensive views (e.g., O.S.Card) but for merely being, frequently, offensive…. I’d have to stop reading a lot of my favorites!
Thanks, Ryan, for a great interview – though I’m betting that Ellison actually said “every once in a while”! Twice… I expect he’ll have something to say about ‘kids’ and their lack of education these days.
Back in my newspapering days I was schedule to do a 30-minute phoner with harlan in advance of an appearance here in Vancouver. It turned into a three hour conversation that wandered thorugh politics, history, grim humour, personal mythology, the act of writing, and anything else that came within his sights.
Probably the best time I had in my interviewing career. Yeah, he’s a crotchety bastard but he has much to be crochetey about and like the actor given a rep as “difficult” Harlan’s troubles all come down to his sense and code of honour and ethics and his refusal to be fucked with, Does he fall short of all this himself at times? Who wouldn’t.
But he consistently Gives A Shit. I can’t think a better compliment.
@auspex AFAIK, he did get his name changed to Cordwainer Bird on Starlost. Of course, everyone knows it was Harlan who did the initial setup (and worked on most of the scripts) for Starlost, but if you look at the details I’m prettty sure you’ll see it’s officially registered (or whatever) under the Bird byline.
BTW, Ben Bova did a somewhat fictionalized version of Harlan’s experience on Starlost in the form of the novel “The Starcrossed.” It’s been decades since I’ve read it and, as it sits in storage miles and miles away from where I am now, I really can’t say whether it’s worth (re)reading or not, but anyway FWIW that’s also out there.
I read Hellison back in the day when he was the darling of scifi, ie, the late 60’s and early 70’s.
He’s an angry little man full of angry words and thoughts. Granted, he knows how to string those words together, but I just pass on anything he’s written since the 60’s, cause it’s just reheated and rehashed Hellison anger, and frankly, I have better authors to read these days.
An artistically weak, out of print writer only celebrated for his big mouth, which has channeled a lot of fanboy fantasies. Go home and try to get through the sludge of his major body of work…which will stay out of print, and get ever harder to find. “Forget the man, consider the work” is anathemic to any Ellison fan, and for good reason. He’s a publicity totem, not a literary artist.
I have just discovered the wonderful World of Harlan Ellison and oh what I have missed! This guy should be proclaimed a national treasure and fated to be visited by Popes and royalty. His interviews on You Tube are marvellous and better than most stand up comedians, as are his many writings. Fancy being the writer of the best episodes of Star Trek and Outer Limits and the author who dreamed up many of the plot elements for the Terminator, one of the best movies of all time. They should build a statue of the guy and stick it in New York harbour.
McCoy was never a drug dealer or an addict in any version of the teleplay for City on the Rdge. That is verifiable to anyone who has actually read it
Harlan is the only author I know of who turns anger into a performance art! His next anthology should be called: Mellow with Rage!
Hey, two White Wolf references in the same article on Harley: Ken Meyer Jr, the pretentious shit who refused to do anything for Werewolf, and another regarding the anthologies. I guess it makes sense that this is commentary on Skully Elly to refer to the most full-of-itself, cool-kid’s-D&D pretentious gaming company that lived and died being a collective asshole.
Here’s to Chris McCubbin, and all of his adventures!