Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 19 of A Feast for Crows, in which we cover Chapter 26 (“Samwell”) and Chapter 27 (“Jaime”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 26: Samwell
What Happens
Samwell stands in their over-priced and cold rented room in Braavos, waiting in vain for Dareon to return with food and wine. Gilly comments that Dareon doesn’t like it here, and Sam can understand not wanting to be around a weeping woman, a screaming baby, a sick old man, and a “fat craven,” but he is angry anyway. He doesn’t blame Gilly for her tears, if what he suspects about her baby is true; he has not dared to ask Gilly if the baby she nursed was truly hers or not. He had asked Aemon when Jon Snow’s heart turned to stone, and Aemon had answered, “when you raised him to be the lord commander.”
Aemon wakes, calling for “Egg,” and Sam thinks that the old man’s wits have been wandering more and more since they arrived here. He had spent the last of their money on a healer for Aemon, only to have the healer tell him there was nothing to be done, and now they are stranded in Braavos, cold and hungry. Aemon insists that they must go down to the docks and find out about the dragons Dareon had heard about in an alehouse, but Sam tells him he is not strong enough. Aemon says that Sam must go, then, and bring back someone who has seen them. He tells Sam that he will not live to get to Oldtown, but there must be a reason he has lingered so long, and he thinks it is because of the dragons. Sam is reluctant, but cannot bring himself to refuse him.
Sam leaves the inn and goes in search of Dareon, intending to have him go with Sam to the docks. He is accosted by two young bravos who intend to rob him, but is unexpectedly rescued by a ragged girl pushing a wheelbarrow, who recognizes him as a brother of the Night’s Watch. The bravos leave when she pulls a knife, and the girl chastises Sam for wearing a sword at night, which is asking to be challenged. She gives him some free clams, and asks if he is sailing to the Wall, but Sam says they are bound for Oldtown, though he doesn’t explain that their ship left without them when Aemon proved too sick to travel further. He asks who the girl is, and she tells him “no one,” but that he can call her Cat. She tells him she saw his brother singing at the Happy Port, and that he’s going to “wed the Sailor’s Wife.”
Sam runs to the brothel, where he finds Dareon snuggling one of the prostitutes. He invites Sam to take one of her “sisters,” but Sam demands to know what he is doing, violating his oath. Dareon tells him no one cares, even in Westeros, and taunts Sam that surely he’d fucked his “wildling wench” a time or three. Sam entreats him to come away and help him find out about the dragons, as Aemon wants, but Dareon tells him he’s done with the black, and throws his cloak at Sam. Sam punches him, and then begins to pummel him until someone hauls him off the singer and throws him out of the brothel into the canal. Sam nearly drowns, but the huge Summer Islander that had been in the brothel and seen the altercation jumps in after Sam and hauls him out. He names himself Xhondo, and tells Sam he owes him many feathers for the ones on his cloak he just ruined while rescuing Sam.
“I never meant…”
“…to be swimming? Xhondo saw. Too much splashing. Fat men should float.” He grabbed Sam’s doublet with a huge black fist and hauled him to his feet. “Xhondo mates on Cinnamon Wind. Many tongues he speaks, a little. Inside Xhondo laughs, to see you punch the singer. And Xhondo hears.” A broad white smile spread across his face. “Xhondo knows these dragons.”
Commentary
OMG SAM MET ARYA AND SHE SAVED HIM FROM RUFFIANS AND IT WAS SO COOL but now I’m sad because he might never see her again and she won’t find out that Jon is alive and The Boss Of Him and wah.
*sulks*
Well, maybe they’ll meet again, seeing as Sam appears to be rather stuck in Braavos for the foreseeable future. Given Arya’s apparent commitment to being No One and fulfilling all her crazy death cult merit badge requirements, though, I’m gloomily doubtful that she’ll get around to revealing to Sam who she really is anytime soon.
Although, wanting to know Jon’s fate might be a motivation for her to do so… Well. We’ll see.
Also, at least now I know that Sam’s timeline is congruent with Arya’s. Or actually a little ahead of where we left her, technically, but whatever. I’m sure this knowledge will come in handy later assuming I manage to remember it.
Dareon: is a dick. But we all knew that.
And it isn’t even so much him blowing off the Night Watch celibacy thing – after all, as he rightly points out, there’s a metric fuckton of hypocrisy going on there, what with Mole’s Town and all – as it is that you don’t just abandon your people no matter how much they might annoy you – especially when you know how much they need you. That’s not an oath thing, that’s just common fucking decency. Which Dareon clearly has none of. Assmunch. Good riddance to bad rubbish, sez me, and hopefully he’ll crawl off to nurse his wounds somewhere and we’ll never see him again.
Speaking of which, SERIOUSLY, SAM, WITH THE FAT CRAVEN thing. I mean, starting bar brawls are not generally a mark of bravery or good character, but in this case, I’m gonna call it an exception. How many cowards do you know who would give a dickbag the ass-kicking he so richly deserved like that? Sheesh.
Have we met Xhondo before? I’m having vague memories of running into another befeathered Summer Islander dude somewhere else, but seeing as (a) I could be totally wrong about that and (b) presumably there’s more than one befeathered Summer Islander dude running around out there, I’m going to assume no until informed otherwise.
And, apparently Sam (and Aemon) are about to find out about Dany and her dragons. I’m… not really sure why or whether this will have an impact on anything, but I’ll go ahead and have faith that there’s some kind of narrative plan here.
“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend… or…”
“Or?” said Sam.
“…or not.” Aemon chuckled softly. “Or I am an old man, feverish and dying.”
Or, you know, both. I’m going with both.
His swordbelt hung from a peg on the wall, beside the old cracked horn that Jon had given him.
*squints suspiciously*
Um. Is that…
Nah.
Chapter 27: Jaime
What Happens
Cersei needles Jaime relentlessly as he tries to get her to rescind “King Tommen’s” orders for him to leave King’s Landing and secure the riverlands. He argues that his place is there, to protect the king, but Cersei tells him toppling Riverrun and restoring Harrenhal is protecting the king. She wants Ser Osmund to command the Kingsguard in his absence, and Jaime thinks again of Tyrion’s accusation that she’d been sleeping with him. He says that Ser Loras should command, but Cersei will not hear of it, and slaps him when he makes a rude comment. He leaves, knowing that he might have swayed her if he’d tried softer words, but he had been too angry to try. He tells himself he is glad to be leaving Cersei and her coterie of “lickspittles and fools.”
His force of less than a thousand leaves the city with a marked lack of fanfare, compared to Mace Tyrell’s exit, and Jaime observes that the townfolk “like the smell of roses but have no love for lions.” Jaime is bitter to be sent to finish what Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane began, but as they march feels nearly content. He is bringing with him his old friend Ser Addam Marbrand and Ser Ilyn Payne, who had lost his tongue when Aerys heard him boasting that Tywin Lannister was the real power behind the throne. Jaime thinks back to the wretched living conditions he’d found Payne in when he offered the King’s Justice the choice to come with him, and believes the man is glad he’d come.
They stay the night with the Hayfords, and Jaime wears the golden hand made for him to dinner, but cuts off the compliments paid him over it. They discuss what had happened to Jaime’s cousin Tyrek Lannister, who was supposed to be lord of this castle. He had gone missing in the riots and was presumed dead, but Jaime remembers that Tyrek had been King Robert’s squire along with Lancel, and suspects that Varys had had something to do with the boy’s disappearance. He sneaks out that night to meet with Ilyn Payne and spar using his left hand, so that only a tongueless man could see how out of practice he’s become. He does so every night, and though he thinks some of the others suspect what he’s doing, no one calls him out on it.
They travel on through increasingly war-torn lands until they reach Harrenhal, where they find the hard-bitten remnants of Gregor Clegane’s men still garrisoned. One of them, charmingly named “Shitmouth,” tells Jaime Sandor Clegane killed Polliver and the Tickler before escaping. They bring him what’s left of Vargo Hoat’s head, and confess that Gregor had ordered the rest of his body fed to the prisoners, including Hoat himself before he died. Sickened, Jaime declares that Ser Bonifer Hasty shall hold Harrenhal now, and they can either stay with him or come with Jaime to Riverrun. He has the prisoners brought out; one, a badly-abused girl named Pia, is hysterically grateful to Jaime, and Ser Wylis Manderly sobs more than she does.
At dinner, the pious Ser Bonifer informs Jaime that he will not abide having such godless men as Clegane’s followers with him, nor Pia, who he judges an unclean whore. Jaime supposes he could take her on as a washerwoman, and agrees to take them off Bonifer’s hands. He warns Bonifer to be wary, reminding him of the bad ends every other owner of Harrenhal had come to, but Bonifer is certain his faith will protect him. He instructs Bonifer to kill Sandor Clegane if he finds him, but to capture Beric Dondarrion and send him to King’s Landing if he can.
He leaves dinner, seeking Ser Ilyn for sword practice, but instead finds Ser Ronnet Connington at the bear pit. Ser Ronnet asks Jaime if it is true that “the maiden-not-so-fair” fought the bear naked, and Jaime says no. Ser Ronnet laughs that if she had, the bear might have run away in terror. He reveals that he was once betrothed to Brienne, but when he went to Tarth and saw her, he gave her a rose and said that was all she would ever have from him.
“The bear was less hairy than that freak, I’ll—”
Jaime’s golden hand cracked him across the mouth so hard the other knight went stumbling down the steps. His lantern fell and smashed, and the oil spread out, burning. “You are speaking of a highborn lady, ser. Call her by her name. Call her Brienne.”
Connington edged away from the spreading flames on his hands and knees. “Brienne. If it please my lord.” He spat a glob of blood at Jaime’s foot. “Brienne the Beauty.”
Commentary
DAT’S WIGHT, WABBIT. Three snaps inna CIRCLE.
You know, I’m beginning to wonder if I am doing Jaime – and Brienne – a disservice by declaring that his actions re: Brienne means he has to be totally in love with her. Certainly that’s the obvious conclusion to reach, trope-wise, but (a) Martin is kind of infamous for going the non-trope route, after all, and (b) to assume that that’s the only reason he could possibly have started sticking up for her is a little, well, sexist. Of me.
Because hey, I grew up in this culture too, and I am therefore just as prey to falling back on comfortable patriarchal assumptions as any of us are, if I’m not paying attention. This shit’s insidious, y’all. CONSTANT VIGILANCE
My point is, it’s not cool to believe that Jaime’s defense of Brienne could only be motivated by romantic/sexual reasons, instead of supposing that it could just as easily be motivated by, you know, just plain old respect for a fellow warrior and honorable person who did him many solids even while he was being a total jerk to her. Or, in other words, the option that gives her the chance to be regarded as a human being first and a woman/love interest second.
I’m not saying that the In Love option can’t be on the table, I’m just saying it shouldn’t necessarily be the first thing you assume is the motivation for a person of one gender to treat a person of the other gender as a person. Especially since Jaime seems to be Growing As A Person in that regard in general, given his decision re: Pia here as well.
I’m… not sure that paragraph made sense, grammatically. But my eyes are crossing now looking at it so I’m moving on.
I would think Cersei is a fool for sending Jaime away from her, but the fact is she’s done such a good job of alienating him that it’s probably more to her advantage to not have him around at this point. Hell hathing no fury like an incestuous brother-lover scorned, and alla that, as the old saying totally goes. So, uh, point for Cersei, I guess. Sort of.
It’s still going to backfire on her later, of course, because at this point her karmic payback backlog is positively astronomical. Not that karma seems to be a principle that really applies terribly consistently in ASOIAF, but still.
Well, unless you are unfortunate enough to be saddled with Harrenhal, apparently.
Littlefinger is a really smart guy, as we all know by this point, but possibly the smartest thing he’s ever done so far is to stay way the hell away from that giant pile of Awful Crap Happening. To which we can now add Soylent Greening its prisoners, because apparently there are ways to increase my hatred of Gregor Clegane even long after the bastard is stone dead.
And not just cannibalism, mind you, but FORCED SELF-CANNIBALISM. I mean, holy shit. I had to go back and reread that part twice to make sure it was really saying what I thought it was. And just when I thought this series couldn’t top itself for horrific crimes against humanity, too. Jeez.
Somehow I don’t have a lot of faith, heh, that Ser Bonifer’s faith will protect him from Harrenhal, which at this point should probably be nuked from orbit just to be sure. But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe that was what all the previous occupants were missing. Still doesn’t keep his assertion from sounding like a character in a horror movie announcing that they should all split up, to me. But whatever, it’s not like I actually care about this guy.
[Jaime:] “I swore an oath to Lady Stark, never again to take up arms against the Starks or Tullys.”
[Cersei:] “A drunken promise made with a sword at your throat.”
And a broken one too, it seems like. Although I have to admit that Cersei kind of has a point here. Oaths made under duress shouldn’t be binding either legally or morally, as a general rule, in my opinion. Even if I’d be happy to see Jaime uphold this particular oath, in principle it really is bullshit that he should be expected to.
That said, I have a feeling taking down Riverrun is not going to be nearly the cakewalk both Cersei and Jaime seem to think it will be. I expect much better of Brynden Tully than that.
And that’s what I got for now, peoples! Have a week, and try the Medley special!!
(Don’t try the Medley special)
Yep, Sam and Arya was pretty awesome and pretty sad all at the same time.
As for Jaime … I felt the whole point of the chapter was to illustrate the extremes embodied by the women in his life. Is he in love with Brienne? Probably, and that’s ånot necessarily bad as a storyline because — if it is love — then it’s a love born from hard-won respect, and Jaime probably sees her as an equal. I think he wants to earn her respect in turn, and just won’t admit it yet.
I loved hearing Xhondo’s voice in the Roy Dotrice narrative.
Well fuck me with a spear, it’s Shitmouth. GRRM had me laughing at Shitmouth while cringing at the Holocuast level crap that had taken place at Harrenhal.
Dareon – in the running for the biggest d*ck in the series, as he not only is breaking his vows but he’s abandoning to likely death Aemon freaking Targaryen and sabotaging Jon’s plans to get a Maester for the NW. At least he could give some money to Sam to get them to Oldtown instead of abandoning every single one of his legal and moral obligations.
Yes, we met Xhondo (or perhaps one of his shipmates) with Dany in Qarth. She said to have them look her up when she’s in Westeros. Wow, the Checkov Summer Islanders….
Yeah for Cat!! Arya is so funny in that persona. What a mouth on her.
Re Jaime – I love this chapter re the start of his adventures heading back to the Riverlands. Wonderfully done all around. Really seeing some level of personal change break through now that he is out of KL.
I’ve grown to love these interminable treks across the riverlands.
You’re very right about the false assumption that Jaime must be in love with Brienne to respect her. But that didn’t stop my little shipper heart from punching the air when Jaime punch Ronnet’s stupid stupid face.
“Harrenhal, which at this point should probably be nuked from orbit just to be sure.”
It already has.
Two chapters where storylines collide!
Sam and Arya meeting is awesome! … and yet so frustrating, because neither of them know what they have in common. Also, this is the second time Sam has run into a presumed-dead sibling of Jon’s, and presumably Jon’s not about to find out about it this time either. Argh.
Feather capes appear to be typical Summer Islander wear.
Maester Aemon makes me so sad, with his memories and his dreams of dragons and having outlived every member of his family.
And then we have Jaime tying up loose ends from both his and Arya’s time spent in the wartorn Riverlands. Clegane’s men, check. Death of Vargo Hoat, check. Mentions of Beric Dondarrion, check. Heading for Riverrun and Brynden Tully, check. All while serving up backstory and exposition and having character moments!
(Oh, Pia.)
Last Arya chapter, we had her looking suspiciously at her food, and being assured that it was “only pork.” Now we have confirmed cannibalism, with Jaime referring to it as “goat” and wondering if the prisoners knew what they’d been eating.
And I agree on the Jaime/Brienne front. I always thought of it more as Jaime respecting Brienne, and seeing her as a representation of something he’d lost and wanted back – honor, loyalty, perhaps a bit of youthful naiveté. He had that dream where her sword was shining brightly but his own went out…
@@.-@. Pyrrhus
Well, heh, you aren’t the only one, but man, people moan about it on the forums. It is far better than the treks across other parts of the world.
Ya, I was thrilled when Arya and Sam met, and the timeline is all messy, we don’t know for sure how long she’s been there, but that she has taken to the place like a native so quickly speaks to how great she is at blending in. It’s not just a costume with her and never has been, she just slips into new situations like she’s stepping into a pool, and looks like she belongs there.
I don’t care if it was under duress or not, and Oath is an oath is an oath.
If someone holds a sword to your throat and gives you the choice of dying now, or living with the stipulation that you never harm their family, you have to abide by that promise. They were offering you leniency in exchange for your word. If you break that word, you’ve lost all rights to the life that they spared. Your word is worth nothing.
I think you’re thinking about this way too much like confessing to a crime in our modern legal system. That’s just now how shit goes down here. He has to keep his word or he’s as good as dead.
“…but I’ll go ahead and have faith that there’s some kind of narrative plan here.”
hahahahahahahahahaha
Mr. Maritn, tell us how your garden grows….
Seriously though, your thoughts on Jaime’s thoughts of Brienne are insightful and make me consider other possibilites. Well done.
I see a lot of people make the argument that Jaime’s oath to Catelyn is not binding because it was under duress, and I just don’t agree.
The fact is Jaime got something out of that deal, namely his freedom. Catelyn gave him his freedom in exchange for that oath. Now if Jaime is to consider the oath not binding, then he needs to return the thing he gained from Catelyn in the bargain. He should go to Riverrun and turn himself over to Blackfish and put on the shackles again.
You can’t just decide to keep the benefits of the bargain and then not pay the price on the grounds the bargain was not consented to. Well, you could if you’re a scoundrel, but no honest man would.
JAIME BACKHANDS RONNET YAY! I feel a bit guilty about how much I love that. I usually dislike, or at least eyeroll at, the trope of “man physically injures other man for saying something bad about a woman” cause it’s so often done in an irritating, cliche way. But for some reason here I really don’t have a problem with it. Part of it is what you say, Leigh, in that Jaime does it because he respects Brienne, not because ‘she’s female and you don’t insult ladies’. Also Ronnet is just such a dick. Though I have to wonder if part of it is that Jaime sees his own early thoughts about Brienne reflected there, and he feel shitty about it…
Also hitting someone with a golden hand is funny. I’m sorry, it just is!
Chapter 26 is another Bravos chapter, and as I’ve said before, I love Bravos. We didn’t see much new of the city in this chapter, but still, the overall flavour of the setting seeps in. From the arrogant bravosi challenging Sam, to Arya posing as a barrowgirl, to the seaside whorehouses, the entire city just has a depth to it.
I love that Sam keeps meeting random Starks, sometimes without even realizing it. I half expect him to end up at the Eyrie with Sansa (“Alayne”) and then wherever up North Rickon and Osha have disappeared to, just to complete his set of lost Starks believed dead.
I thought Aemon’s words in this chapter were riveting. First, the multiple references to the Dunk and Egg tales we read. Aemon remembers his father getting the throne despite not wanting it, and saying it was punishment from the gods for killing his brother- that refers to when Maekar accidentally killed his brother Baelor during Dunk’s trial by combat. Then Aemon mentions Egg and “that big knight he served”- a clear reference to Dunk. And he mentions that they all drank “fearsomely strong cider” at an old inn, which I think is the same inn that we saw in the prologue to AFFC.
Arya appears to be settling into her new role as Cat/No One. Her profanity cracked me up, calling people camel cunts.
The Happy Port was a nice scene. It seems like a somewhat likeable place, for a dockside whorehouse, and Xhondo is awesome. Leigh, we did not meet Xhondo before, but his ship, the Cinnamon Wind, is the same ship that Dany encountered in Qarth, when she heard about Robert’s death and promised to reward the captain when she became queen.
Very nice pickup on that random line about the broken horn. I have no idea if it’s significant, but your reaction matched my own.
The Jaime chapter has a few interesting items in it. First of all, Cersei just keeps getting worse and worse every time we see her. She is outright dismissive and hostile to Jaime now, and wants Kettleblack to captain the Kingsguard. Remember that the Kettleblacks are secretly LF’s vassals (or they were before they came to Kings Landing), and are in no way trustworthy even if they aren’t in LF’s pocket any more. But all Cersei cares about it weakening Highgarden.
We’ve mostly been seeing the devastation of war in the Brienne chapters, but we see more of it here through Jaime’s eyes. We encounter people who were ravaged by both armies and Jaime is actually doing what he can to help restore order and hope, what little hope he can give (“plant, and pray for one last harvest”).
Gregor Clegane was even worse than we knew about. We already knew he was an asshole with rage issues from a young age (as Sandor’s story about how he got a scarred face illustrates), but I think this is the first reference to forced unwitting cannibalism, never mind self-cannibalism. It’s just so beyond imagining that I don’t know what else to say.
Jaime’s oath to Cat may have been under duress, but the fact remains that she DID free him, and eventually Brienne DID return him to Kings Landing, so he does feel a certain debt to the Stark girls, or at least Sansa since like everyone else he believes Arya to be dead. That’s partly why he gave Brienne Oathkeeper in the first place. Speaking of which, I don’t know how much distiction there is between respect and love in his feelings for Brienne. He has clearly respected her for a long time now. I don’t know if he would consciously say even to himself that he loves her, but I think the whole concept of love is so new to him (other than self-love, and his sick relationship with Cersei which amounts to the same thing) that it would be hard to differentiate between love and respect. The bottom line is: he likes Brienne, he defends her honor, and he cares for her pretty deeply on some level, at least.
Chapter 26 – Samwell:Sam was still on a boat when we last saw him back in (wow, looks and it was…) chapter 15. Since he is now looking out a window over rooftops, it doesn’t seem that he is on that ship anymore. And, Braavos is where he is. It seems they are lacking in money as “it had been days since they’d last had a fire.” Although, if Daeron can afford wine, it would seem that a bit of wood shouldn’t be a problem. Something going on with that obviously. Daeron storms off for days at a time. Sam should assert himself a bit and mention that Daeron has an oath and they have a mission. Wood is costly in Braavos and they have spent most of their money on the room and on dreamwine. Aemon keeps asking to go to the docks and Sam is putting it off until Aemon gets better. Unfortunately, as the healer said, you don’t get better from being 102 and having a fever.
That’s got to be Arya! Yep:
Too bad, but Sam hurries off and doesn’t take Arya up on her offer of showing him the way. Fun bit of synchronicity from GRRM. We’ll have to see if they run into each other again.
He finds Daeron in a brothel wasting their money and:
Good for Sam! He reminds Daeron of their oath and then smacks him upside the head. Hopefully, Daeron will be actually helpful and useful, but maybe not. Sam almost certainly should have done this some time ago instead of sitting around thinking about his being a coward (when he isn’t). He’s had some tough choices that he has put off and that hasn’t gotten him anywhere. I guess being in the Night Watch isn’t just happy fun times playing with pink bunnies and all. Randall really did a number on Sam.
Here is a potentially useful person–both from information wise and that he actually seems willing to be helpful.
Sam’s meeting with Arya is now the second Stark child he’s run into.
At least with Bran he knew who it was.
Poor Aemon.
Yeah, Jaime continues to frustrate the reader. And I agree with @1 that if Jaime does LUV Brienne, that it comes from respect, whereas Jaime’s love for Cersei comes from narcissism.
The thing I see with Jaime and Brienne is very much in agreement with Lyanna at #7.
Jaime lost his honor long ago; killing the king, sleeping with his sister, tossing a kid off a tower. And much more. He’s down, and his time away from Kings Landing (the whole dungeon and travelling with Brienne thing) has in some way brought him a new look at the world. Losing his hand helped a lot too. He’s a guy who is re-evaluating his place in the world, and it seems that he doesn’t like what he’s seeing these days.
So Brienne, for all her faults (and she has a few), is right in front of his face. She hasn’t lost her honor despite all the crap coming her way; she could have hung it all up long ago and gone home to Tarth. But she rides on, keeping oaths that she by all rights isn’t supposed to even take. She’s more a knight than Jaime ever was. And he knows it.
He’s clearly trying to be a better man, whether its for Brienne or himself is hard to say. But Brienne is heavily involved in that process. I don’t know where it goes from this point, but I don’t see happy endings for anyone in SOIAF. It will all go to crap in the end when the white walkers show up on the last page of book 7 or 8 anyway.
If Jaime’s oath not to raise arms might not be binding due to durress, then I really don’t see how Dareon’s oath to the watch is any different. He was sent to the wall for having sex with a noble woman who he claims consented and then called it rape when they were caught. While that admittedly might not be the truth, I also don’t find it hard to believe within the context of the book. Whether he is actually guilty or not, it was Night’s Watch or death.
And ya, it’s shitty to leave Sam and Aemon, but how much do you owe to a man that is 102 years old, after you have had a professional healer tell you that all you can do is make his passing comfortable? How much do you owe to Sam when he insists you go against that healers advice, and go out of your way to search out rumors of semi-mythical beasts halfway around the world, based on the same old man’s fever dreams?
I’m not sure what I would do, but I sure think I’d be tempted to jump ship when I had the chance.
CONSTANT VIGILANCE!
S
“Have we met Xhondo before?”
I believe the befeathered Summer Islander you are thinking of is Xaro Xhoan Daxos, ostensibly the richest man in Qarth.
In regards to Sam’s horn…WOW, I never picked up on that! Then again, the only time I read this book was ages ago. I wonder if it really is the frightening, Wall-shattering horn. If it is…what’s the range on something like that? It might be like a TV remote. You know, even if you’re not in the room it still has a chance at turning on your magic box. What if Braavos isn’t out of Wall-shattering horn range?
I read the Hedge Knight between reading Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows. When Maester Aemon started calling out for Egg, it broke my little fanboy heart.
It occurs to me that, to Jaime, Brienne could simply be the sister that he never had.
An oath under duress isn’t binding, all other things being equal. But in Jaime’s and Dareon’s case, all things are not. Jaime, a prisoner of war fairly taken, bargained for his freedom when he made his vow – Catelyn wasn’t threatening him, she was offering a positive benefit and he took it. Dareon was under threat of death, because he had been lawfully condemned (whether justly or not). He has also received a positive benefit in the shape of reprieve. It’s not like anyone snuck up to either of them and put a knife to their throats to extract the oath. (And yes, radinsky, that WOULD have been illegitimate duress and rendered the oaths non-binding.)
Why am I the ONLY one who didn’t know Sam was talking to Arya? I didn’t even realize it until reading this summary…! Bah.
And don’t forget, the Watch is your only option, unless you wish to leave Westeros, like Jorah.
Hehe. Indeed. It was nuked from orbit 300 years ago. That’s kind of the problem. Maybe there still some bad-mojo-dragon-radiation or something. ;)
I love it when Jaime tells Cersei: “Ser Loras is thrice the man Ser Osmund is.” Of course Cersei is all “Your notions of manhood have changed somewhat, brother.”
I wasn’t aware Jorah’s exile was a choice?
He could have gone to the Wall, but he ran away from Westeros instead. Remember the Old Bear telling Sam that he wanted Jorah to come home to the Wall, to be redeemed with honor?
And my statement @23, was supposed to read “isn’t” your only choice.
Re: Summer Islander. You may be thinking of Jalabhar Xho, who has been hanging around King’s Landing, in exile. He was at the Tourney of the Hand in the first book, as well as both Sansa & Tyrion’s wedding and Margaery & Joffrey’s wedding. He gave Joffrey a bow and quiver as a wedding gift.
Dareon is a deserter. Where is Ned Stark and Ice when you need them??
“I’m just saying [romance/sex] shouldn’t necessarily be the first thing you assume is the motivation for a person of one gender to treat a person of the other gender as a person.”
Yes, THIS :)
I forgot how irritating and gross Ser Hasty is with his ‘piety’ regarding his thoughts about Pia. Well, good luck with Harrenhal, bud.
@28 Lisamarie
Do you favour the legalization of adult prostitution? If so, you fit in with the majority of Canadians, but for some reason even though our Supreme Court just struck down a law preventing adults from selling this service, the idiot government we have is serving up a new law banning adults from paying for said services.
Ser Hasty’s opinion of Pia is something that still exists in our world. He has no mercy for her new life, he’s judging her based on her past. It’s something that happens, is disgusting, but he’s probably one of the actual better people in the books. I wonder if he gelds his men who rape women during or after battle like Stannis does.
@25 – He probably could have asked for a trial-by-combat. I would have headed for Essos instead of dancing with Ned Stark and Ice.
@29 – I am really confused by your comment/question….
As for legalization of adult prostitution, I’m of two minds. Morally, no, and nor do I like the idea of sex being seen as a commodity, but at the same time, consenting adults can do their own thing so…(and maybe one could hope if it were legal there would be less trafficking/abuse going on? Naive hope, perhaps).
Nor was I implying that Ser Hasty’s ideas aren’t found in the real world, or even that he is evil through and though. Just that his attitude wrt Pia is pretty disgusting, just as it is in real life.
Also, Pia wasn’t a prostitute. She slept with a lot of Tywin’s knights (either because she wanted to, or maybe in an attempt to ingratiate herself with the new overlords) but that hardly justifies being locked up for anybody to use, or treated as a ‘font of corruption’ who contaminates the other men.
Is Ice a combat sword? I mean, it’s a massively huge broadsword, I thought it was only suitable for riding. Doesn’t he have a different sword when he fights Jaime?
Chapter 27 – Jaime:Cersei sends Jaime off to quell the Riverlands. And to limit the number of people who disagree with her, I suspect. A nice travelogue of the trip. I would think that Jaime should spend a bit less time worrying about what people think of his style and just practice. He lost a hand, of course he isn’t as good as he once was. Everyone around him knows that. Practice can eliminate a good percentage of that. So, keep working at it Jaime.
Harrenhal is quite the nice place. They fed Hoat to the other captives and to himself. Ser Bonnifer is another in a long line of twits. It doesn’t look like Pia was apt to doing much part flaunting from her reaction.
Nice backhand of Connington with the golden hand. (Jaime just needs a soundtrack by Lulu.) Jaime doesn’t seem to approve of people disrespecting Brienne.
This chapter gives us a chance to get into Jaime’s head a bit and see his growth of character. Not that there are many ways to go except upward from being an incestuous, king killing, (attempted) child murderer. But, hey, at least he isn’t a cannibal.
Yeah! Is it sad that these are almost “happy” chapters by the standard we set so far?
Sam + Arya = happy
Jamie + hitting asshole = happy
@20: now that’s funny.
Re: Dareon –
Edit: Sorry, HBO false memory.. Could not get white to work. Removed. Thanks @35 & 36.
Still, leaving your companions behind with nothing = dick move.
Re: Adult prostitution – I like Holland’s outlook on it. Provider and client can do what they wish.
But Pimps are not legal or allowed. Pimps are seen as parasites on humanity.
The “Hold your child’s hand” sign was the funniest thing I saw in the Red Light District. The Purple light = Cross dresses was the most surprising. No, I did not partake of the “offerings.”
Braavos is marvelous if you have money and/or a livelihood, but being stuck there jobless and penniless really sucks. That’s true of many cities, of course, but the contrast is made dramatic here.
Cinnamon Wind! The name makes no sense, but I love it anyway, imagining breezes redolent with clouds of powdered cinnamon. Yum.
I have trouble believing that Jaime’s hand is “wrought in gold,” not just gilded. Woudn’t the weight of a solid gold hand dislocate his shoulder? Or does it have hollow spaces inside?
The deadpan snark of Jaime’s talk with Shitmouth made me laugh. Though I feel like Martin is intent on using the word “arse” in as many AFFC chapters as possible.
I generally disapprove of torturous decapitation, but make an exception for Hoat’s delightfully appropriate fate. (Is it ironic if it was done deliberately?) His treatment of Jaime, Brienne, and gods know how many others…ugh.
@34: I think the molestation secret was only in the show, from Pyp.
@34, I think that was Pyp
@31. Lisamarie
She was more or less the modern version of a prostitute, the difference is adults now get paid (which is way better, wouldn’t you say?). There is no way she could say no to any of Tywin’s men, and as much as she may have enjoyed it, in today’s world, she would likely be getting paid.
Do you know that in many of the world’s biggest religions Ser Hasty’s comments fit right in? Why women in Islam have these little eye slits? It’s so they won’t tempt men. Hasty’s comment is aimed at Pia but instead it says horrible things about his men and men more generally. That’s the darkly humurous bit about blaming women for being temptresses or whatever people say, because all they are doing is pointing out the great weakness in themselves.
I also hate Ser Hasty’s comments because I think, as long as no innocents are being harmed, adults should be able to do whatever they want. The state getting involved just makes it a public expense.
Anyway, I am glad you are at least half liberal. I asked the question because Ser Hasty is presently sitting in our Parliament and I am concerned, not that you have anything to do with it.
@35. AeronaGreenjoy
We don’t know exactly what grows on the Summer Islands but cinnamon could be there, and if you have grown up around an orchard or food farm you might well love the scent of the wind. Then you move into the city and the air smells gross for at least a few years.
Cinnamon Wind is an evocative name and when I close my eyes and think back to how great the breeze smelled in my youth I smile, and this ship’s name brings that all back.
@38: Kewl.
Aeryl,
I believe Ice should count as a combat sword. Greatswords are designed to be used in battle, specifically against armored foes, in order to get the maximum weight and power behind your blows. Swordfights with fully armored opponents and one-handed weapons tended to resemble pushing and shoving matches. Axes, warhammers, greatswords, these are all attempts to get weight and power to penetrate armor, albeit at the expense of versatility. Regarding the supposedly prohibitive size, remember it is made of Valyrian steel, which is very light for its mass.
All that said, I would bet that a lot of nobles in families with a hereditary Valyrian greatsword probably save it for ceremonial things like executions (a la Ned), because they practice fighting with more ordinary weapons. Especially someone like Ned, who did not grow up expecting to inherit Ice. Unless he was more like Robert in the all-out style of combat (a weapon that forces you to really commit to your blows, while reducing your ability to avoid injury – totally in Robert’s wheelhouse, much less so for Ned), and trained with twohanded swords anyway. But that’s also a less useful weapon on horseback, which is the primary focus of a chivalric military culture.
All in all, there are good reasons either way, largely depending on personal preferences, whether or not Ned or Randyll Tarly would use their family greatswords in a duel or trial by combat or on the conventional battlefield.
I also gotta weigh in on the oath thing. I agree with whoever pointed out that Jaime and Dareon had other options to taking the Oath. Those might not be attractive options, but their circumstances are largely their own fault. Maybe Dareon’s story is one hundred percent true, but he’s still guilty. The word rape is not sexual in its denotation, only in its connotation (see, for example, “The Rape of the Lock,” which has no [overt] sexual assault in it). Rather it refers to theft. That high born girl’s sexual favors were not hers to give away, and he was cooperating in the theft of them. A noble girl’s duty is to reproduce to the benefit of her family, just as a noble boy’s duty is to train with weapons and put his life on the line. It might not be right or fair, but it’s the price you pay for growing up with high stone walls between you and a very dangerous world, having a maester take care of your childhood injuries, good food (and sufficient quantities to keep you from starving), fine clothing and bodyguards. Individual rights are not so much a thing in this kind of world, because individual survival is impossible. It doesn’t justify sexual assault or the abuse of spousal, gender or parental privileges, morally speaking, but there is no such thing as free and harmless sex. Even if boinking someone’s future wife and contracted breeding partner was an acceptable thing, he was pursuing an empty sexual encounter with no possibility of a relationship. Hardly something to be admired or approved of. Not only that, he grew up in this world, and he ought to have known the risks of being caught abed with a noble’s daughter. Considering how some men might punish their daughters for lowering their marital value, plus the ramifications of bearing a bastard child, social diseases, etc, he was actually putting her at a great deal of risk for his own selfish pleasure (and as a worldly traveler, he’d be in a much better position to know that than some shletered teenaged noblewomen).
So Dareon engaged in risky behavior, with another person (whose own amenability to the idiocy does not mitigate the same), and is surprised that a person who would violate one set of societal values (chastity) for her gratification would violate another set (honor) and sell him out? Darwinism suggests applying a vow of celibacy to this guy would be a good thing due to eliding such stupidity from the gene pool!
Much and more has been said here and elsewhere on the shortcomings of Jaime Lannister and their contribution to his imprisonment.
Also, prostitution = Bad. In case anyone could not infer my opinion from my above post. In addition to the issues of exploitation (seriously, how did Leigh & co miss calling bullshit on Chataya, for her use of religion to cover her exploitation of women?), personal degradation, and sexual morality, it contributes more than any other institution or practice to the objectification of women.
Ignoring all the psychological things I don’t have time to get into, it’s simple economics with the law of supply and demand. By selling sex and gratification so cheaply, a whore makes it harder for decent women to charge a higher price (i.e. respect, commitment, etc). It leads to decent women accepting abuse or marginalization from men by allowing men the option to treat women like shit, to use and discard them, and to think that they have the right to make interaction with women into a transaction.
The overwhelming majority of people simply cannot compartmentalize well enough to keep their behavior in one part of their lives from bleeding over into others. The sheer lack of respect Tywin had for other people’s dignity and personhood made the discovery of a hooker in his bed completely unsurprising in hindsight.
My point re: Pia is that while I cynically believe she probably was forced into it (or chose to initiate it as a survival technique using the means she had available to her), even if she did it completely willingly because she liked it and wanted to have sex with all those men for fun, there is no justification for a)being locked up and raped by Roose’s men and b)Hasty’s comments about her (especially given that he has no way of even knowing if she wanted it or not, and given the Way Things Are in Westeros, should have concluded it was pretty likely she didn’t). Pia is yet another example of the ‘common person’ who is ground up by the machine of war.
Also, I’m trying to parse out your comments on religion and victim blaming/shaming, and I feel like (apologies if that is not the intent) I’m being lectured. I am very well aware of the hypocracies of some people of faith, as well as the logical inconsistencies/double standards of treating women as temptresses. In fact, it is something I read and bring up discussions about fairly frequently in my personal life, and have recently been doing some study/thinking/praying/writing/self-examination of this topic in my own life, because as Leigh points out, this all requires constant vigilance to root out. Hasty’s comments are offensive to me as a woman/human being – although at least in that sense, they are meant to be seen that way, although sadly a reflection of beliefs that do still exist and harm others.
But – and this is a minor irritation, but still there – as an actual real live religious person, it’s another portrayal of the stereotypical pious asshole. Which, again, minor irritation that I can mostly shrug off; it’s not doing me the same kind of harm that the other toxic beliefs on women are having, some of which has in fact been propogated by people of various faiths, which is part of why it hurts. Perhaps if it were a totally trumped up charge one could laugh it off, but there is some truth in that portrayal, which stings. It is something I try and work a lot on when I have discussions with my friends – not being part of that problem. It bothers me too that those comments ‘fit right in’.
To above.
So, on one hand you are railing against prostitution because of ‘objectification’ (and I don’t actually disagree with you that prostitution and/or casual sex are negative things, and I have a lot of problems with the way our society treats sex) but you also say things like “That high born girl’s sexual favors were not hers to give away, and he was cooperating in the theft of them”.
Dude, no. I can kind of see where you are trying to go (and maybe not personally espousing that view)…but no.
I do have some fairly conservative ideas on sexual morality, I will admit that. But I also believe the point is that it is a total, free gift of self, and it is up to each individual person, and that person alone, to decide how to bestow that gift. They may make the ‘wrong’ choice, in my view, but it’s still their right. And I honestly don’t think this is such a radical/contradictory idea. In fact, when I was only casually/shallowly ‘religious’, I used to have rather victim-blame-y ideas, etc. It actually wasn’t until I started deeply studying my faith and writings on the topic that I began to really identify with a lot of current feminist thought on consent, rape culture.
Moderator here. It’s wonderful that everyone is so involved in this discussion, but let’s please make sure we’re still focusing on the books and not straying into moral judgement, especially with sensitive topics like these. Thanks!
While I agree that in today’s world, any woman has the right to make her own sexual choices (and the responsibility that comes with them), in the fantasy medeival world of ASOIAF that is not the case. A noble girl, or even a young woman like Brienne (or young Lysa Tully) does not have the legal right to have sex with any man. That’s why Hoster Tully had to find a man to marry Lysa despite her indescretion with LF, and why he felt that he was lucky to get the Lord of the Eyrie Jon Arryn to agree to marry her. Of course that led to problems, such as Lysa eventually killing her husband (at LF’s instigation), but the fact remains that it is a patriarchical society in which women have less or even no choice in who they marry. Cat may have eventually grown to love Ned, but theirs was an arranged marriage and she entered it willingly to serve her family’s (and specifically her Lord Father’s) needs. Lysa’s indescretion wasn’t just the sex, it was the betrayal of her purity, her greatest asset as a potential mate to strengthen the House. The morality of such situations is almost irrelevant when viewed through the lens of today’s world, I would argue that the ethics of the contemporary world are what truly matters when viewing these things.
As for Pia, yes Bonifer Hasty is an arrogant religious ass. But while Pia did not willingly service the most recent occupants of Harrenhall, the truth is she was a…girl of loose moral values, sexually, from the first time we met her coming on to Jaime. No matter what the most recent events were, she still would be someone that Sir Butthole would have found objectionable to keep in Harrenhall while he was there.
Not to mention Jeyne Westerling. For those reasons, I was quite surprised to learn in AFFC that Asha and Arriane were openly bedding whoever they chose.
the truth is she was a…girl of loose moral values, sexually, from the first time we met her coming on to Jaime.
And she couldn’t have been just coming onto Jaime, because as a noble he offered greater secrurity? Because she was tired of being passed around like a party favor, and thought if she were the paramour of the GREAT JAIME LANNISTER, he might scare others away?
Whatever
[Moderator note: message edited. Please see #44)
A prisoner of war giving an oath not to take up arms again as a condition of release was a fairly common practice even up to the US Civil War. It started going by the wayside in the age of total war when government would not allow a soldier to honor such an oath. Otherwise the choice, is devoting resources to prisons, and in extreme cases, the horrors of what happened at Harrenhal.
Aeryl- I’m sorry, but the fact remains that sometimes there are girls who truly are just promiscuous and Pia (at the beginning of the story) appears to have been one. She had a reputation for sleeping around, and there was no indication that it was something she was forced into. Yes, she came onto Jaime, of course she would, he’s the beautiful famous Kingslayer! But she also apparently came onto many men willingly in the past. When she tried to seduce him at Harrenhall, there was no indication that she had become an unwilling plaything, even though we dislike Roose Bolton he doesn’t appear to have allowed that to happen. It was only after Roose left and the castle fell to Gregor’s men (and the Brave Companions) that she truly suffered.
GRRM could have written Jaime and Brienne without any romantic ambiguity. He didn’t.
He chose to write a scene where Jaime sees Brienne naked and gets an erection. He chose to write a scene where Jaime dreams of Brienne naked and is attracted to her. He chose to write several innuendos made by multiple characters about Jaime and Brienne being or becoming lovers. He chose to frame various interactions they had in a potentially romantic light. It is plausible that Jaime only has platonic feelings for Brienne. However, if you think there is more to it, it might be because GRRM continually suggested the notion to you via subtext.
And a broken one too, it seems like.
Wait; broken when?
@49, The fact remains that promiscuity isn’t a harmful act, which just goes to show how screwed up Westeros is.
Gregor feeds prisoners to prisoners. A great loss for the kingdom when he dies.
A girl tries to get some security through sex(the only option made available to her). Burn the witch.
@51 – not broken as of yet. Leigh is looking at planned efforts to take Riverrun.
We don’t know what Pia’s motivations were in the past as we don’t have a POV from her, but whatever they were, they don’t make her a bad or even immoral person.
Her motivation in the present appears very clear. Shear abject terror of the highly privledged psychopath Gregor and his crew.
Being beaten into submission also does not make you a bad person.
We don’t know a lot about the underlying principles of the Seven but Bonifer Hasty certainly seems to exemplify the cookie cutter mentality of the more dogmatically inclined. X did Y so X is good or evil depending on Y and no other considerations.
@54: After the Weasel Soup coup, Roose put her in rape stocks along with other women who had slept with Lannister soldiers, as Arya witnessed. He apparently released her at some point before Jaime arrived.
@55:Right, that would seem to be a psychologically damaging environment. Seems pretty safe to say that her prime motivation has been terror for quite a long time.
I get the idea that Jaime can stick up for Brienne for reasons other than he’s falling in love with her, but I do think it’s very GRRM to write the ugly, mannish girl as having the most traditionally romantic story in ASoIaF.
“When she tried to seduce him at Harrenhall, there was no indication that she had become an unwilling plaything, even though we dislike Roose Bolton he doesn’t appear to have allowed that to happen” – Aerona beat me too it, but, yes, she was an unwilling plaything, for the crime of sleeping with Lannisters. Also, I don’t remember if this was one of Roose’s men or Gregor’s men, but the man Jaime beheaded for raping her mentions that he had her hundreds of time and didn’t understand why it was suddenly a bad thing now. The smile she gives indicates that it wasn’t something she had wanted.
(Whiting out the above because I don’t remember if it is in this chapter or a different one)
I don’t completely agree with the statement that promiscuity isn’t harmful (I think there are ways it is harmful to a person, and certain ways it can be presented in society that are ultimately counter productive) but I think it’s the kind of ‘harm’ we have the right to make, and that it’s also the kind of thing that, if I think it’s harmful, it’s my ultimate responsibility to build myself up against it (or my children, or what have you) even if others are doing it, without needing to ‘punish’ others for it.
Pia is just another victim. Even if she really was the slut that everybody said she was, Roose Bolton just used her (and the others he put in the dungeon) as an example. To lay down the law. His way of saying “do not fuck with me”. Another poor victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what the hell do we care what the o so pious Ser Bonifer thinks of her? He is a fool. We shouldn’t pay too much attention to the opponions of a fool, now should we?
I saw it as a beautiful example of how Jaime had grown as a person that he took pitty on her. George Martin had to use an idiot like Bonifer to show us how different Jaime thinks about stuff like that. To show us Jaime is more and more capable of compassion to people who have no way of ever paying him back. Still hate him though.
As for Jaime and Brienne’s relationship, I believe Jaime both respects her as a Warrior and as someone else who people look down on (She for being a woman who will not accept her ‘role’ and he for being a Kingslayer and a Traitor). She is also his best friend if you don’t count Tyrion and she is more of a true sister to him than Cersei.
I believe Brienne with her Romantic notions about Chivalry and Life may see Jaime in some eros love way but to Jaime their love is Phileo.
@@@@@ 60 – You really think so? Funny, I see it exactly the other way around :-) Brienne could easily feel the phileo brothers in arms type of love for Jaime. Where Jaime (having boners when seeing her naked and all) is at first having the eros type of love (much to his surprise) but is at this point growing into phileo. He needs to. Because Brienne will totally beat the shit out of him if he would try anything else.
@27 –
Leigh might be thinking of Jalabar Xho, but this meeting with Xhondo is a more specific reference to something we’ve seen before….his ship the Cinnamon Wind is in Qarth when Dany is there, and his captain is the one who tells Dany that Robert Baratheon is dead. That’s why he knows about her dragons.
This week: two protagonists gave two jerks a well-deserved punching. We also met a widowed toddler, another man (the third at leaast) who refers to himself in the third person, and at the fifth person in this book to have a name ending in “-ifer.”
@58: Yes, the whited-out event is in a later chapter.
Lisamarie @@@@@ 42
Being a practicing Roman-Catholic religious person myself, just have a couple of things about your post. I totally get where you are coming from about the portrayal of religious characters. In that vein, I would like to recommend to you Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files series. It’s a contemporary-setting urban fantasy, whose irreverent & iconoclastic protagonist is pretty much nuetral on religion in a calculated-to-sell-maximum-books way, but about half a dozen of the books feature a se of background characters who are both religious, recognizably so, and positively portrayed. And not in a “Oh, I’m not like the rest of that rotten Church, I’m a cool rebel Catholic/outlaw priest” that we generally have to settle for, either, but in a way that is consistent with orthodox morality and values. The supernatural/faith interaction aspects are acceptably respectful, somewhat akin to the priest’s powers in Salem’s Lot. The Catholic doesn’t show up until about book three, and the first 3-4 books are a bit shaky until Butcher hits his writing stride, but I’d recommend them anyway, even above and beyond the grounds on which I bring them up here.
That said, I am mildly curious as to why you take the negative portrayal of religious figures so to heart. The faith of the Seven might be loosely structured to resemble medieval Catholicism, but we have names for religions that are almost, but not quite, Catholic. Names like ‘Protestant’ and ‘heretic’. Up until the 20th century or so, the worst worldly enemies of the Church were other religions, so I really don’t get the universal identification with all people who practice religion, and guilt over a bunch of anti-Catholic bigots drowning/burning witches in a colony founded expressly for Protestants whom even other Prots couldn’t tolerate, or the sorts of misogyny that crept into “Christianity” under the banner of sola scriptura preaching. The most impressive, great and badass women in history were all Catholic, and celebrated and embraced by the Church. We were venerating female Doctors of the Church when Protestants were harumphing about the waste of money trying to teach estrogen-poisoned brains, and Muslim women were wondering what books were. Of course the heathens might have other opinions, but if they had any clue they’d be Catholic already. The difference between a Protestant and an anti-religious atheist or agnostic, is the Protestant should know better.
Snark aside, I really don’t see the motivation for concern about the treatment of, or identification with, characters of a different religion. Regarding negative portrayal of our own kind, well duh. What else would you expect? Our Lord explicitly promised as much. Prejudice against, and persecution of the Church should be embraced for the opportunities such circumstances offer. As an American who appreciates our ideal of respecting other’s differences, and equality before the law, and objectivity in the media, I admire William Donohue’s work on behalf of the Church and in opposition to her detractors. As a Roman Catholic, I really think he could find better things to do with his life.
Hope that helps.
I saw it as a beautiful example of how Jaime had grown as a person that
he took pitty on her. George Martin had to use an idiot like Bonifer to
show us how different Jaime thinks about stuff like that. To show us
Jaime is more and more capable of compassion to people who have no way
of ever paying him back. Still hate him though.
It’s ok. Jaime (as a character in a book) deserves your hate. Kingslayer? Politics. Incest? Meh (ask the Targs about that). Attempted murder of a little kid? If I had my way, he’d lose more than just a hand.
There have been great, badass women (and men) from all walks of life.
I will white out my own point about the Jaime/Brienne thing, because I can’t remember if it was before or after this.
P. S. I’m new here, I hope I get the spoiler block done correctly!
To summarize, though … it’s almost certainly proper romantic love for one of them.
Brienne dreams of the tournament at Bitterbridge, when she won a place in the Rainbow Guard. She mentally substitutes the “love of her life” Renly with Jaime as he places the cloak on her. (Also note the similarity to the wedding custom.) Later on, she dreams of the events surrounding Renly’s death, but it’s Jaime who is dead.
@35 AeronaGreenjoy and @38DougL, re Cinnamon Wind:
The McCormick Spice Company used to have a factory right in the middle of downtown in my neighboring city. And when the wind was right and the factory schedule was right, the whole region smelled like cinnamon. Mmm.
Of course, there were days when the prevailing scent wasn’t quite so pleasant. And it’s moot now, the whole building was razed years ago.
@67, The ability to white out posts pretty much only happens for those of us with Tor.com accounts, which allows you to go back and edit posts, should the text box not accept the white out.
To do it without a account, you have to preview the post first, then edit it to white out the text.
But you should really just take the black, as we call it, as it allows you to keep track of posts you’ve commented on and see who’s talking back, plus the edit and delete features.
I flagged your comment though, so one of the mods will come clean it up.
@67,70 – Done! Thanks for flagging, Aeryl.
Jaime smacking that dickwad for talking shit about Brienne is possibly my favourite thing that has ever happened in this whole series. What can I say I ship Jaime / Brienne and I make no apologies.
I mean I know Brienne is too good for Jaime. Even I am susceptible to this trope. Embrace it Leigh!
Ty for the cleanup on aisle 2!
@72 Brienne may be “too good” for Jaime, but the fact is that Brienne herself has very superficial views of men for the most part. The two men with whom she has fallen in love (one consciously, one semi-consciously) are both known for their looks and power. I’m talking, of course, about Renly and Jaime, who sometimes seems to have replaced Renly as her desired love interest. I find it an interesting choice on GRRM’s part, that perhaps the greatest sufferer of sexist views in Westeros would herself fall prey to the same superficial ideals that impede her.
@74 – I think part of that is because Brienne deep down is just as gooey a romantic about knights as Sansa was at the beginning of the story, so she falls into much the same kind of thinking Sansa with Ser Loras.
I think there is a spoiler in #52 concerning the status of The Mountain.
I think that’s just Brienne being naive and a normal teenage girl (I’m pretty sure she’s only 19 at this point and even younger when she was crushing on Renly). She’s very like Sansa. Part of her going on her journey and understanding Jaime as someone who is more complex than she thought is realising the world isn’t black and white in terms of honour and chivalry.
She fell for Renly because he was one of the first men to be kind to her or treat her with respect. I don’t think Brienne is superficial. Just because someone isn’t conventionally attractive doesn’t mean they somehow wouldn’t be attracted to more attractive people.
@75, 77- I totally agree that I see some similarities between Brienne and Sansa, despite their obvious differences. They do both view the world through romantic, or even childish, eyes, especially at the beginning of the story, and they both continue to see it that way to an extent despite their growth as characters and exposure to the harsh realities of the world. But Maddy1990, Brienne definitely has an element of physical attraction in her 2 crushes. Yes, Renly outwardly treated her with respect when he met her, but she travelled across the Reach to pledge herself to him before even meeting him, and decided that her life’s desire was to join his kingsguard without really knowing him. I just read that as partly “blinded by love”, so to speak. I’m not saying she’s superficial, or more superficial than the average Westerosi woman, but she does let appearances influence her thinking, like most people (maybe everyone in the story other than Varys).
re: sexist interpretation of Jaime and Brienne
Actually, the twue wuv interpretation didn’t even occur to me until it got mentioned on this here read of ours. I always saw it as a realization on Jaime’s part that “holy crap, Brienne is teh pretty fucking AWESOMEZ”. And I like that interpretation more because it means he’s judging her on her merits and not on his (subconscious) desire to get in her pants.
re: Cersei’s karma points
Karma in Westeros is on permanent vacation. Or sick leave. Yep, must be sick leave. It’s quite telling that even karma is like “WTF? Screw you guys, I’m going home to throw up! Sort your shit out yourselves!”.
@52 Aeryl
re: promiscuity
Actually, without proper means of protection against STDs promiscuity can indeed be harmful. It’s still wrong to judge someone’s character based on this, but the fact remains that in a medieval society there is a certain risk to promiscuity.
The arc of Pia’s life pretty well demonstrates how promiscuity in the wrong setting can be extermely harmful.
@80 Black Dread
Though arguably in this case that’s more a problem of the setting and less of the promiscuity itself.
@80: Wow. Equating promiscuity with being raped multiple times is horrifying, as is the implication that because Pia may have enjoyed consensual sex earlier the rape is justified. Just fucking no.
@82
I don’t think he implied or meant to imply any of this. All he said was, that her promiscuity resulted in her ultimate fate. Not because she did anything wrong, but because Westeros is a craptastic shithole…
olethros@81:Exactly. Pia did nothing to in any fashion “deserve” her current state.
Randalator@79:Has there been any mention of venereal diseases in Westros? I don’t recall and don’t want to google.
Jogging in a minefield, camping on the side of an active volcano, playing with matches in a fireworks factory. Living in Harrenhal, being a woman anywhere near the Mountain’s men. Being promiscuous and unmarried in Westeros…
All very dangerous activity / setting combinations.
@@@@@ 84 – There was a mention in a recent Brienne chapter of a camp follower who was accused of giving some soldiers “the pox.” Randyll Tarly ordered her privates scrubbed out with lye.
Of course, since it’s not specified what kind of pox, we don’t really know if it’s actually venereal. It could be touch, airborne, etc. However, the concept seems to exist, which suggests that the diseases do.
Hi 64 –
Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, I had a busy weekend so I just saw this now.
Anyway – I will try to answer this concisely without derailing the conversation too much.
The reason I take it to heart is two fold. Also, I should probably clarify that the portrayal of religious figures in book isn’t something that keeps me up at night or anything or leaves me feeling personally wounded. Also, I am aware that Martin isn’t necessarily intending Catholicism specifically (although it kind of is cultural shorthand for a medieval, hierarchical, ritual-y religion), but in the name of solidarity, when somebody targets ‘organized religion’, I generally include myself in that group. I’m certainly aware there is a lot of variation in those types of portrayals and agenda – either a non-religious person attacking all religion or somebody of one religion/spirituality attacking another, or even people from within the religion criticizing various aspects of it. AndI do want to clarify I don’t think GRRM is ‘attacking’ me or religion, just that he’s resorting to a rather trope-y portrayal with this specific character that feeds into various stereotypes. It’s too bad because I just reread the chapter and was totally read y to like Ser Bonifer Hasty and his well behaved “gelded” men (and talk about offensive – the fact that his men don’t rape people leads people to jest that they must be gelded along with their horses), until he said that. Obviously good people can have certain blind spots though, and I think his attitude towards Pia is one.
Anyway, two fold. One is the sting that comes with feeling like a core part of my identity is being attacked. Oh boy, another religious jerk. I’m quite fond of my religion and being Catholic, I know many fine Catholics who don’t espouse these kinds of attitudes, so it’s aways a bit hurtful to feel like people might be thinking of you this way (intentional or not). It sucks when ‘your people’ are portrayed in a negative light. That’s true whether I’m reading about the clumsy potrayal of women, Italians, Wisconsinites, geeks, what have you.
The second, deepr sting: I think Ser Hasty’s thoughts on this topic are truly wrong and vile. I have spent more than 10 years reading and studying various writings on Catholic ethics, sexuality and feminism (please, no contradiction in terms jokes ;) ) from the source and I think his thoughts are completely wrong. But the scary thing is that on the surface, to many people, they seem right and logical. That includes in the real world. Not only does it bother me to see something I consider good and beautiful tainted like that, but I also have to acknowledge that sometimes religious people have done and said horrible things that actively hurt people. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the ‘not all men’ phenomenon (and I don’t want to open that can of worms, although if somebody else wants to, be my guest), but I try my hardest not to derail a conversation with ‘not all Catholics/religious people’ because some DO. I am sure there have been times I’ve contributed to it myself, without realizing (and I know there have been times I’ve done so purposefully when I was younger). And it’s really kind of lame of me to sputter about in righteous indignation because the portrayal of a character in a book hurt my feelings, when that portrayal really isn’t that far from actual people who do actual hurtful things that hurt people in much worse ways. I try and determine where the portrayal or these stereotypes are coming from – sometimes it is from a person who has been truly hurt. So, I think it’s important to discuss, instead of just wishing it would all go away, and can’t we stop dwelling on the negative already, and hey, shiny thing over there, look at all the good things we do! I think it’s an important discussion to have within our faith as well…and these stereotypes also I think get internalized internally, because people just kind of accept them, like this is how we’re supposed to think and act. Sometimes I see people get defensive about the thing being portrayed as negative, instead of about what is being portrayed itself.
I’m not saying these kinds of portrayals get a free pass all the time – there are definitely things out there that are just flat out from malice or wilfully ignorant and obscuring facts. But it’s definitely a perspective that is there. Returning back to Martin specifically, given the rest of his portrayal of the world, I don’t know that he has an axe to grind with religion specifically in Game of Thrones – in general, most of the sources of authority are pretty corrupt and hypocrtical. And there are of course some ‘good’ characters too (such as Septon Meribald, previously discussed).
Anyway, thank you for the discussion, and thank you for the reccomendations too! One of my favorite authors is Juliet Marillier, which maybe is a little funny, given that her books are historical fantasy or fairy tale retellings (Gaelic, Celtic, Pictish, etc) and the various pagan tribes (whose magic is generally real) are the protagonists and the Christian faith is the usurper (although I’ve noticed it’s often left ambiguous as to whether or not their prayers have efficacy). But I enjoy them because she doesn’t flat out portray all the pagans as peaceful, enlightened, perfectly egalatarian noble savages, and the Christians as mean, rigid brutal villains looking for some more women to torment. Some are and some aren’t, on both sides. But mostly I just find her books interesting reads ;)
@87, In the interests of contributing to your reading on Catholicism and sexuality, here’s an interesting link by my favorite Christian blogger on the decision to keep birth control a sin
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/06/10/the-stupidest-thing-i-have-ever-read/
No disrespect intended, but the title is already enough to put me off a bit…calling a belief I hold dear ‘the stupidest thing I have ever read’ does not suggest a point of view I am going to agree with.
But, they are entitled to their opinion and I respect that. I did read it (and I’ve read some of the source documents on the topic) and, I’ll just say, in the interest of staying on topic in this particular thread, that we are coming at it from very different presuppositions and I have come to a very different conclusion/interpretation. I also think some of the motives/viewpoints unilaterally ascribed to those of us who hold these beliefs are inaccurate – although there are also people who hold those viewpoints, I am not denying that. I can see how this interpretation makes sense when you hold certain beliefs, but ultimately I don’t share it.
@90, I’m sorry it struck you that way. But it’s not titling the Catholic belief that way, but that the argument for keeping birth control a sin was “the stupidest thing” they had ever read, since it merely consisted of “If we admit we are wrong about this, everyone will wonder what else we’ve been wrong about”.
I just found it truly fascinating that every person and group the Pope went to about the Church’s stance on birth control said “Change it” and so he finally went to a group he agreed with him, and went with their opinion.
sooo no more discussion of the horn? I really don’t remember if we know yet or not – been a long time since read the books. But good catch and is certainly something GRRM would put in to make us think. Could be a red hearing might not…but yeah had the same thought…oh god what if he blew it in bravos?
@92 zaldar
re: horn
I think, GRRM has been dangling so many carrots in front of us for decades that this vaguely carrot-shaped object is hardly a blip on the radar anymore.
That’s probably why Leigh was like “Ooooooh, is that a carrot? Eh, probably not. Oh look, carrots!”…
Strictly speaking, wasn’t Dareon’s oath made under duress as well? It was a choice of death (or some other severe punishment) or taking the black. Why the double standands?
It’s funny that people take oaths so seriously. Jaime summed it up pretty well, “So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or another.”
The war at this point is pointless (not that it had a point from the beginning). Ned is dead. Robb is dead. Tywin is dead. Joffery is dead. Tommen is still a child, but was described as being kind, so not necessarily a bad king. All motivations for the war have been gone, only hatred and spite left.
@95 species5618w
Actually, the main reason for the war was that Robert’s children with Cersei weren’t his and had no claim to the throne. That hasn’t changed one bit. The war is still going with Stannis on one side and the Lannisters on the other and for the same (perfectly legitimate) reason it started in the first place…
@96
So? it’s not like Robert had any claim to the throne in the first place. As Renly pointed out to Ned, “This isn’t the bloody line of succession. That didn’t matter when you rebelled against the mad king, it shouldn’t matter now.” The only person cared about the order of succession was Ned Stark (don’t know why) and Stannis. Robb declared himself King of the North, thus a traitor not only to Joffrey, but to Stannis. I don’t think the Blackfish really wanted Stannis as his king, nor any of the river lords. After the red wedding, they don’t have a cause anymore (most of them have recognized that). Stannis is probably the only person (other than the crown) who has a stake in this war now, but he is pretty far removed from the war. Whose side is the Blackfish with? Neither.
@97
Robert has a claim to the throne, because he’s next in line after the Targaryens. He was the first eligible adult left in the line of succession after the Rebellion was over, because his grandmother was a Targaryen princess. Her father was Egg, and her son, Robert’s father, was first cousins with the Mad King, which probably explains why Robert’s parents were searching the Free Cities for a bride for Rhaegar, when they found Patchface, as per CoK prologue. This was known at the time, which is why Robert was the leader, despite being arguably the dumbest of the four ranking noblemen who were fighting (Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn & Ned Stark). Robb was not committing treason, he was seceding. The whole point of the Declaration of Independence was that while long-established governments should not be changed on whims or for minor details, when they do become destructive of the purpose of good government, it is the right of the people to overthrow said government and replace it with one that worked better. Aside from the fact that Aerys wanted Robert and Ned killed for the crime of being betrothed and related to, respectively, his son’s extramarital sexual interest and was batshit crazy and incapable of good governance, the only potential successors to lawfully replace him were a bunch of children and an arrogant prince who trampled all over his subjects’ rights to cause the whole problem in the first place. Likewise Robb’s cause, was a legitimate case of separation from a state that gave nothing to the North, while continually abusing it, the occupant of the Iron Throne having murdered the last two Lords of Winterfell.
based on more or less the point you made about the lack of a claim.
If you let bastards with no real claim take the throne, you’re pretty much bowing to the “might makes right” principle. Succession of the eldest child of the appropriate sex might be a stupid rule to chose the next monarch, but it’s a generally agreed-upon rule, that ties in with other practices of passing on authority, and following it adds support and force of habit to the idea of following the rules, rather than doing whatever you can get away with.
Also, as prior practices have demonstrated, just because a war cannot be won does not mean it is not worth fighting, morally or practically. Morally because, duh, and practically, because it allows the fighters to win concessions in exchange for eventually stopping.
@99 Comment unpublished, as using several walls of text to respond to other commenters isn’t in line with our moderation policy. Please feel free to rephrase, but please tone down the rhetoric and remember that everyone has the right to engage in a respectful, calm conversation on these matters. Thanks.
@97 As far as maintaining law and order goes it doesn’t matter if Joffrey and Tommen are biologically Roberts. What matters is if they are his children in law and right now they are because their legitimacy has not been questioned in any court, and no legal proof of their bastardy has been presented. Ned had proof, due to Cersei’s confession, but Stannis doesn’t. He has started a war based on suspicion. If he wins, he will be seen by most as having usurped his nephew the rightful king – supporting the idea of might makes right, not legitimate succession.
@98, Robert’s claim to the throne was very shaky.
First of all, he was definitely behind Viserys if not Daeneyres as well.
Secondly, he killed the rightful heir to the throne. If he claimed the throne through Targaryen bloodline, he also sanctioned the killing of Targaryen childrens by not pushing the perpetrators. That would make him a kinslayer, thus forfeit his claim to the throne.
Seceding was considered a form of treason (still is today in most countries). Certainly both Joffrey and Stannis thought so, thus neither would tolerate him without a war. It was a stupid thing to do anyway. Robb had a chance to ally with Stannis, instead, he made it impossible. His death, while tragic in its execution, was his own making.
As for whether a war is worth fighting, the question is worth to whom. “The common people pray for rain, healthy children and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” Does the common people care whether it’s the drunk’s true born heir sitting on the throne? I doubt it especially since Joffrey is out of the picture. I suspect BlackFish doesn’t care either now Robb and Ned are both dead.
@102 – respectfully disagree with many (not all) of your well-expressed points.
– The point of Robert and his supporters was that the traditional Targ rulers went off the rails through criminal and un-kingly activity and needed to be overthrown. One could call it shaky but it is intentionally shaky. No one is questioning the legitimacy of the Targs per se, just that Aerys’ crimes made them unfit to rule any longer. So long as the nobles and people go along with it, it can happen. With that assumption in place, Robert and his brothers were next in line with the best “untainted” Targ-based claim.
– I don’t know of any Westerosi doctrine that killing a kin (or more than one kin) renders one ineligible to rule. Again, if the nobles and people go along with it, the fact that you killed off a “criminal” line of Targs doesn’t make one unfit to rule. It may be seen as just doing a tough duty for the nobles and the people.
– I agree that succession is a form of treason against the crown (Joff), but I don’t see that Robb had much choice vis a vis Joff. As far as Robb and the Starks were concerned, he was acting in self-defense. Robb may very well have worked out an accommodation of some sort with successor King Stannis or King Renly if Robb had not been killed at the behalf of his Lannister enemies.
Robert’s claim to the throne was the same as any king’s (real or fictional) – he was willing and able to kill anyone who disputed his claim. Same as the Targaryens, same as whoever sits the throne when the series ends.
Monarchy, like pretty much all forms of government, is based on the threat of violence.
The ability to wield supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Bloody peasant!
I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away!
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I’m being repressed!
@@@@@ Lisamarie & Aeryl
I sort agree with the linked blogger to a degree, in that from their perspective, the minority report’s rationale is suspect. They were still right, because, infallibility. However, they were not claiming it was impossible to back down rather than lose face. To those familiar with Catholic teaching and dogma, they were not actually saying that at all. They were citing those who are damned for their sin as an illustration of the seriousness of the sin, rather than a difficulty in retracting the condemnation, and how the Church cannot simply declare white to be black to fit in with current fashions. In a legal discussion, that phrase would be something like, “We can’t just make having driven a Pinto a capital crime, because we’re retroactively sentencing hundreds of thousands of people to death row.” What the minority report was actually saying was “Tell all those people who died in a fiery explosion that the Pinto is a perfectly safe car.”
Which comes around to the point of Pia, in that actions have consequences, whether or not you deserve them. Imprudent behavior can make you a victim, even if it is totally innocent, and no amount of declaring behavior acceptable will magically make that untrue. Even if stipulating that there is nothing wrong with having indiscriminate sex, contributing to the objectification of your gender, and making yourself into Grand Central Station for any and all diseases that might be circulating in the army (by the same logic that gives society the right to mandate vaccinations for children or workers in certain occupations, such sexual behavior as Pia displays is NOT her personal, private business; also, Randyll Tarly would be right to douche the whore in Maidenpool), it’s still very imprudent. There is nothing immoral about walking through a bad neighborhood with large amounts of cash and jewelry, and such behavior in no way justifies theft or assault of the person engaged therein, we’d still tell a person in such a situation who was victimized, “It’s your own damn fault.” If Pia didn’t want to be used as a sexual object, she should not have been behaving like one in the first place. Ser Bonifer’s issue is that based on her past behavior, she will be injurious to discipline of his company, which is a well-known priority of his. Jaime disagrees, assuming that her victimhood has altered her perspective. We shall see who proves right.
Betting on the general trend of human nature, one would be smarter to assume that Pia is more likely to resume casual sex once over her trauma. Not in any really healthy way, mind you, but backsliding is the generally safest assumption, absent some sort of concerted effort to help her. Which isn’t Bonifer’s job, within his area of expertise, or even socially appropriate given their respective ranks and gender roles.
I also find it hilarious that the sort of person who ascribes to the “they’re going to do it no matter what, so you might as well let them” mentality, and provides links to a blog with the same attitude, rejects that exact same train of thought regarding women around soldiers, whether with the Bonifers who don’t want sexually available women around their men, or Randylls who believe (with experience supporting them) that female soldiers among the male will lead to sexually-inspired breakdown of discipline.
P.S.
thanks, Katherine. There was a bunch of digressionary stuff that I typed as stream of consciousness, but forget to remove before post.
@bill D5 Thank you for amending the comment, but part of the issue was the inflammatory language and disrespect for the opinions of other commenters present in the last two paragraphs. I’ve removed that part of the comment, and please remember to follow our moderation guidelines so that everyone has the chance to participate in a civil conversation that doesn’t escalate unnecessarily. Thanks!
@bill D5
“they’re going to do it no matter what, so you might as well let them”
I have this mentality when it comes to actions that don’t harm others. I don’t support draconian drug laws because they cause harm, I don’t suport banning birth control, because it causes harm. I don’t support banning prostitution, because it only hurts the workers. Women are going to try and control their fertility, people are going to sell sex, and people are going to use drugs. They best any system should do isto abate harm.
But first of all, I don’t think rape is inherent in a majority of humanity, but that we are in a culture that devalues and objectifies women, making it easier for some people to committ rape. And second, allowing rape to happen doesn’t abate harm.
So it’s really not that complicated, so long as you believe that men aren’t inherently rape monsthers, and look at the issue through the actual harm that is done.
Since there is no “Like” button, I just want to “Like” Tabby @105 (and her fellow Monty Pythonites). That’s all I wanted to post. Thanx
Katherine: Gotcha, wilco.
@105: Hey, farcical aquatic center ceremonies are a way of life in the Iron Islands. Don’t judge. ;-)
(JK, I get the reference)
@108 – Some things in this book are bad; they can really make you sad.
Other things just make you swear and curse…
While you’re chewing on that gristle, don’t grumble, give a whistle;
And this’ll help things turn out for the best… and always look on the bright side of life!
In other random thoughts, I’m hoping we get to find out what happens (if or) when Brienne finds out Jaime pushed Bran out the window.
@105 tabbyfl55 et al
Supreme executive power may not derive from some farcical aquatic ceremony, but what if it derived from the sacrificial distribution of shrubberies. Or indeed the ability to arrange, design, and sell shrubberies?
@116: Oh… I think yo win this MP round of fun.
Thanks to all the others!
Regarding the horn – I don’t remember if I even noticed it when I first read it (or when I re-read it a few years ago). But it’s definitely a cool detail, which might (or might not) come to something. Or not ;) That’s the fun thing about the re-read.
Regarding legitimacy, my husband and I often muse about that. The idea of legitimacy is a little silly/arbitrary if you really stop and think about it. I agree that it has a use in the sense that it is supposeed to provide some stability, but ultimatelly, it does come to force. Even if you want to argue that Robert is the ‘rightful’ ruler because he was the closest to the Targaryens (and ignoring the fact that they killed/exiled the other Targaryens that would have been the rightful rulers), the Targaryens are only legitimate because Aegon took the throne many generations ago (although I suppose he can at least be credited with forging the kingdoms) through conquest.
Aeryl – I just want to say, no problem, we’re cool, I didn’t take it personally. This is not the venue to discuss the ins and outs of the topic, but I get what you are saying (Yes, that statement is stupid in and of itself and could be a stupid statement in certain contexts, I just don’t agree that the interpretation/slant the article gives to the events, context, etc and felt it was implying other things as well…there were other things/statements I took issue with). I’m restraining myself because, again, I don’t think this is really the point of this thread :) I could probably write a wall of text (and I hope the deleted comment, which I never saw, wasn’t about that because I don’t want to contribute to the derailment).
Whenever we get back to undead Cat:
CAT:(Communicated via the poignant Westros sign dance as her throat was cut when we last saw her):
I feel vengeful. I feel vengeful.
I am not dead yet–
I can dance and I can sing.
I am not dead yet–
I can do the Westros fling!
I am not dead yet–
No need to go to bed.
No need to call the maester
‘Cause I’m not yet dead!
BANDITS:
She is not yet dead!
That’s what the lady said!
Oh, she’s not yet dead!
That man is off his head!
She is not yet dead!
Put her back in bed!
Keep her off the cart because she’s not yet dead!
(to be continued whenever we get to what could be an interesting chapter and assuming GRRM doesn’t just keep giving vague hints in favor of writing about watery priests from the islands.)
(Cut to corner of cave. A man in an ice-cream girl’s uniform is standing in a spotlight with an ice-cream tray with an albatross on it.)
Man: Albatross! Albatross! Albatross!
(A bandit approaches him.)
Bandit: Two choc-ices please.
Man: I haven’t got choc-ices. I only got the albatross. Albatross!
Bandit: What flavour is it?
Man: It’s a bird, innit? It’s a bloody sea bird . .. it’s not any bloody flavour. Albatross!
Bandit: Do you get wafers with it?
Man: Course you don’t get bloody wafers with it. Albatross!
(The camera zooms past back onto the screen. On screen appears another ‘Intermission’ sign.)
First Voice Over: There will now be a very short…
(The intermission sign explodes.)
We now see a series on animated captions: ‘NOW SHOWING AT OTHER DANK BANDIT CAVES’ ‘AT THE PORTNOY CAVE RIVERLANDS’ ‘WINNER OF THE GOLDEN PALM, TORREMOLINOS’ ‘RAINWEAR THROUGH THE AGES’ ‘COMING SOON’ ‘AT THE JODRELL CAVE, HARENHALL’
Second Voice Over: The management regrets that it will not be showing a feature film this evening as it eats into the profits’
(Cut to Cersei on horseback; first few bars of “The Bear and the Maiden Fair“. Cut to Bandit sitting in cave seat clutching albatross.)
Bandit: Well that’s quite enough of that. And now a gold cloak near King’s Landing… Albatross!
By the way, when I started my above comment, 103 was the latest comment there (I was at work, and then I went home, and now I’m at work agaom). I’ve read the other comments, I just don’t feel comfortable continuing the discussion – not because it’s a topic I dislike or feel unable to comment on/defend my beliefs, but because it’s too easy in topics like these to be misinterpreted or unintentionally offend somebody when you don’t know all the ins and outs of what the person you are talking to has experienced, what they might know and not know, etc, and only read words on a screen.
Plus, again, it is kind of veering away from relevance (although certainly things like rape culture and treatment of rape victims is relevant to this chapter so I’m fine with continuing that discussion, I just mean I’m bowing out of the discussion regarding infallibility, what is changeable and what is not, what the Church teaches about birth control and why, etc). I do respectfully disagree with some of the implications in post 109.
I don’t think my thoughts on sexuality are that complicated, but I really dislike the idea that a person is ‘behaving like a sexual object’ when they are promiscous because they have different ideas of how much sex is appropriate or in what contexts it is okay. Even if I disagree with those ideas based on my beliefs on what sex is and what the human person is…I just don’t think that. There are certainly some people who, due to self esteem issues or past manipulation/abuse may only think of themselves as valuable for sexual reasons, but I don’t think that applies here.
And I think ultimately a person’s discipline is up to them. Yes, a promiscuous person might tempt another person to THINK about sex, or to feel lust, etc. And I know there is some debate on what charity demands in terms of the way we (men and women) present ourselves. But it is SUCH a long way from that and actually forcing your dick into somebody, I just can’t see why we can’t ackowledge that it’s not this switch that you flip. Like, “Oh, I feel lust/sexual attraction, I HAVE TO/AM ENTITLED TO act on it!”. As much as I disagree with Pia’s former actions (and again, it’s possible she felt coerced into it because she was trying to get a measure of safety), or general mentalities that in my opinion downplay the nature of sex/the body/etc, somebody having or enjoying sex doesn’t mean they are an object, that kind of view is the fault of a person who can’t seem to separate the fact that a person may enjoy sex but still have other aspects to their personhood. In fact, I believe (and I am pretty sure this is probably somewhere in TotB too) that no matter how you act, you can’t shed that personhood or make yourself an object, even if you wanted to for some reason. It’s inherent. And even if somebody is acting in a way that seems to imply that, then the onus is on the person interacting with the person to still recognize that.
As far as Ser Bonifer goes, I found it a little sad that he talked a bit about wanting to forgive some of the murderers, etc (although would still punish them) but this just doesn’t even seem to occur to him with Pia. He just wants to kick her out of her home.
And, while I understand the risk that a promiscuous person in a society that doesn’t seem to have reliable STD protection could be (or do they?)- although this would apply to both genders – Randyll didn’t give her the whore a douche, a term that brings to mind flowers and Summers Eve, and what have you, he scrubbed her out with lye, an extremely caustic agent that probably caused her permanent damage and excruciating pain. Although maybe in Game of Thones world that’s no less harsh than some of the other things and punishments go on. I suppose if he’s also castrating the men who are spreading it around or raping women, I could find it ‘fair’ in a Game of Thrones sense (although still totally outside the bounds of humane punishment).
In the Songs of Ice and Fire (and infact in our world too), oaths are binding depending on whether the one that took them considers them such.
Nothing else.
All else is actually irrelevant. Including duress or not duress.
@123 The Golden boy
I don’t think “Okay, maybe I lied under oath but I didn’t consider it an oath so that’s totes cool.” will fly in a court of law…
@35
Just a back of the envelope calculation, but Jaime’s gold hand probably weighs a bit over 7 kg (16 lb). Typical morningstar/flail weighs around 8 to 12 lbs (3.5 – 5.5 kg).
Jaime’s walking around with a bowling ball on the end of his arm? They must have found some way to make it lighter than that. Well since gold melts and hardens in seconds in this world, maybe it’s also less dense.
@125 Gharlene
Uh, that’s the approximate weight of the FIFA World Cup Trophy (see below). Given the size of that thing are you sure that you didn’t accidentally calculate the weight of something way too solid to fit your arm in…?
The famous second prosthetic hand of the German knight Götz von Berlichingen weighed about 1.5 kg. Even taking into account that Jaime’s hand might be less delicately crafted (thicker material) and that gold is about 2.5 times as heavy as iron, missing the elaborate internal articulation mechanism of it’s historical counterpart it shouldn’t weigh more than about 3 – 3.5 kg..
Leigh,
Perhaps someone already pointed this out along the way in the comments, but you repeatedly use the sexually derogatory term “a dick” or “a total dick” in your commentaries… At least 15 times, according to Google (before I stopped counting).
I’m not personally offended, it is not out of context, and since you clearly are “totes” using an informal, colloquial tone throughout the commentary, just “talkin amongst my peeps”, I get it. And I totally agree, those jerks are some bad apples.
But for someone so in tune with gender issues, I wanted to point out that calling Dareon a dick is just as offensive as someone calling Samwell “a pussy” or Cersei “a cunt”. I assume you would find both of those terms offensive and better left unsaid in our discursive quest for insight and gender equality.
(Perhaps that masculine term has been reappropriated among feminist circles as an empowerment and is used with intention, I dunno. But if so, I humbly think it misses the mark and is counterproductive.)
Hope you dont take offense. Just saying… Sometimes we need a friend to point out obvious blind spots we have as a result of living in our own psyche 24/7…
:)
Maybe some people find Jaime’s plotlines in the riverlands are boring, but I don’t. Especially after Connington. After I read that I rooted for Jaime even more than I do already. George R.R. Martin is definitely building up to something between Jaime and Brienne, as we see in both of their POVs. And soon, hopefully.
@84 Well, there is that line from Olenna: “Garth Greenhand liked to plant his seed in fertile ground. I shouldn’t wonder that more than his hands were green.”
You know, I’m beginning to wonder if I am doing Jaime – and Brienne – a disservice by declaring that his actions re: Brienne means he has to be totally in love with her.
I’ve been thinking that too. Jaime obviously has feelings for Brienne, respect, admiration, maybe a touch of envy because she’s the kind of noble knight he wanted to be as a boy. Possibly love is in there somewhere, certainly there’s at least a touch of attraction, but his feelings – and hers – are much more complex than simple romance.
@129 How about using Ass? That seems to be a gender neutral insult.