Welcome to the Malazan Reread of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover chapter fourteen of The Crippled God.
A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing. Note: The summary of events will be free of major spoilers and we’re going to try keeping the reader comments the same. A spoiler thread has been set up for outright Malazan spoiler discussion.
CHAPTER SUMMARY
SCENE ONE
The Snake continues on. Badalle feels the presence of other “ghostly things” hungry seemingly for “judgment” and desiring to ignore or flee from the Snake. Badalle thinks though “I am as true as anything you have ever seen. A dying child abandoned by the world
Flee from me if you can. I promise I will haunt you
Heed my warning. History has claws.” Saddic still carries his treasure trove and looks at it at every stop, something that frightens Badalle though she doesn’t know why. She comes to see even Saddic doesn’t know why he carries them, and she imagines his death, the butterflies coming down to feed on him, how she would try to make sense of that sack and fail, and then “I will know it is time for me to die too.” She thinks they have no more than one or two days left. Rutt tells her he’s gone blind, his eyes too swollen, and Badalle tells him the way is straight and clear; he can still lead. He stumbles, and Badalle, looking at them all and their state, grows angry and sings, her words carrying them away physically as she looks “for claws.”
SCENE TWO
Kilava stares at the Gate and the ruin of the Kettle Azath House—dead or dying. She had lied to everyone before so as to ensure their survival; she knows there was no chance of stopping the Gate from opening, of preventing the Eleint from coming in: “T’iam could not be denied, not with what was coming.” She believes she knows what most players will do—the Forkrul Assail, the Liosan, her brother (whom she gives her blessing to)—but the Crippled God is a wild card she thinks. She recalls his “fury and agony when first he was chained” and how “the gods returned again and again, crushing him down, destroying his every attempt to find a place for himself,” and ignoring his cries for justice, his “wretched suffering.” She thinks how in that way he was similar to so many mortals—”who were just as wounded, just as broken, just as forgotten
all that he had become—his very place in the pantheon—had been forged by the gods themselves.” She assumes the Crippled God knows the gods plan to kill him out of fear and because they “will not answer mortal suffering. It is too much work.” She assumes as well he is desperate to escape and will go down fighting. Looking at the growing Gate, she thinks it is nearly time to flee the coming “slaughter on a colossal scale.” None could fight what was coming, or, perhaps a few (too few), but she thinks “Let them loose. T’iam must be reborn to face her most ancient enemy. Chaos against order, as simple—as banal—as that.” She wonders “what of her children,” then thinks, “The hag’s heart is broken, and she will do whatever she can to see it healed. Despise her, Onos
she deserves nothing else—but do not dismiss her.” Rocks begin to crack and shatter as the House weakens further, and Kilava knows Kettle was “flawed
too weak, too young. What legacy could be found in a child left alone, abandoned to the fates. How many truths hid in the scatter of small bones?”
SCENE THREE
Gruntle feels Trake inside him, “filling him with an urgency he could not understand” to find a gate and he wonders what it is Trake fears so much. In this world not his own, he comes across nearly two dozen humans dead from disease, and he thinks “Someone summoned Poliel and set her upon these people. I am being shown true evil—is that what you wanted? Reminding me of just how horrifying we can be?
These people, someone used you to kill them.” If Trake was showing him this to awaken his anger, he tells him didn’t work—”All I see here is what we’re capable of doing.” He misses Paran and Itkovian and Harllo, Stonny and her son, parts of “a different life, a life long lost to him.” Out loud, he wonders what Paran would do—”We weren’t happy with our lots, were we? But we took hold of them anyway. By the throat. I expect you’ve yet to relinquish your grip
I’ve messed it up.” He knows from his dreams he has a “terrible fight” ahead, and senses it was time. He raises the dead to be his warriors, offering them something different than the misery they died in., offering a “better death.” They wake healed, and when he gives them the choice of returning to their people (if any are left) or seeking vengeance (he says they know they’ll lose), they join him and they veer together into “a rather big” tiger. They kill three pale men on the road (implied evil ones) and then exit the world.
SCENE FOUR
Mappo reaches the Glass Desert, finding it covered with bones. He thinks perhaps he is tiring of living, and he can be done with it all after he accomplishes his one thing to do. As he starts to cross, he feels “inimical” life and “intent”. Death, though, he now considers a release, and he wonders what it now holds, with Hood clearly absent: “What now waits beyond the gate? So much anguish comes in knowing that each of us must pass through it alone. To then discover that once through we remain alone—no, that is too much to bear.” He considers alternatives in his life—staying in his village, having a family, killing Icarium—but then believes he really had no choice. And had he a family, his eventual death would have pained them—”I could not bear to be the cause of their sorrow. How can one give so freely of love to another, when the final outcome is one of betrayal? When one must leave the other—to be the betrayer who dies, to be the betrayed left alive. How can this be an even exchange, with death waiting at the end?” A swarm of flies appear, than locusts, and butterflies, and he realizes “You’re all d’ivers
one thing, one creature—the flies, the locusts, the butterflies . .. This desert is what you made.” He tells it to semble so he may speak to it but the locusts swarm him, trying to break through his skin and failing, and he can feel the rage and wonders, “Who in this desert drove you way? Why are you fleeing?” He can sense it hasn’t sembled in ages, millennia perhaps, and it’s lost in the primitive parts of itself. He hears in his mind Badalle’s song of banishing and the locusts disappear. He wonders where this child of so much power is and thanks her, then thinks, “Child, be careful. This d’ivers was once a god. Someone tore it apart, into so many pieces it can never heal
All it knows now is hunger
[for] life itself, perhaps. Child, you song has power. Be careful. What you banish you can also summon.” He hears her, more faintly, “like the flies. Like the song of the flies.” Mappo heads off again.
SCENE FIVE
Silchas Ruin has rejoined Ryadd Eleis. He gives him the two Letherii swords, keeping the one Shadowthrone gave him, though he remains mystified as to its provenance, thinking he had known all the weapons forged by the Hust. He suspects Shadowthrone is “playing a game” by giving it to him. Ruin tells Ryadd the Eleint blood in him is a “poison,” one that he and his brother chose on their own out of necessity (what he calls the “fatal lure of power”). They believed with the blood/power of T’iam they could bring peace to Kurald Galain by “crushing every House opposing us
killing thousands.” When Ryadd says he is not Ruin, Silchas replies, “Nor will you ever be, if I can help it.” He tells Ryadd that Kilava has almost certainly convinced the Imass to leave their realm, that Udinaas, who understands the “pragmatism of survival” has probably led them away, getting help from Seren Pedac to hide from the humans. He thinks she will join them to hide her child away, protected by Onrack and the Imass. Ruin goes on to describe the coming of the Eleint through the Gate—”among them there will be the last of the Ancients. Leviathans of appalling power—but they are incomplete. They will arrive hunting their kin. Ryadd, if you and I had remained
we would in mindless desire join the Storm of the Eleint.” He explains dragons travel in threes to be safe, that when there are more it “demands the mastery of at least one Ancient
when too many of us gather in one place, the blood boils.” He informs Ryadd he’s going to leave, to “defend my freedom,” and when Ryadd wonders how he could do that, Ruin says because he himself is an Ancient. Too, he adds, when Ryadd asks if Ruin could dominate/compel him, that he has learned to resist Chaos’ seduction. Ryadd asks if his mother Menandore was an Ancient as well. Ruin says yes, all the first few generations of Soletaken are, but T’iam’s blood quickly became unpure. When asked about other surviving Soletaken, Ruin says there are a few and they will most likely fight the Storm as well. He explains he doesn’t want Ryadd there because if Ruin has to pay attention to defending both of the them, he’ll most likely fail at both; Ruin will end up enslaved by an Ancient. When Ryadd says “if you did the same to me, imagine how powerful you would then be,” Ruin answers that’s why dragons so often betray each other in battle—fear causes a first strike: “The Eleint revel in anarchy
in unmitigated slaughter.” His only answer to Ryadd’s “Who can stop them?” is, “We’ll see.” Ruin asks Ryadd to tell Udinaas he did what he promised (protected Udinaas’ son) and also to say that he [Ruin] regrets his haste in what happened with Kettle. Ryadd asks if Ruin is going to kill Olar Ethil for what she’d said earlier, but Ruin says she spoke the truth, and after all, they were “only words.” Ruin leaves.
SCENE SIX
Ublala dreams of his mace’s owner, a dragon-killer, a Teblor who broke the neck of a Forkrul Assail, who walked the Roads of the Dead to gain his weapon, who fell into drunkenness at having seen on his return “where we all ended up,” and who was going to be killed by the Elders then buried in his armor and with his mace under the Resting Stone.
SCENE SEVEN
Ublala wakes with Ralata next to him. After some sex talk, Draconus tells him they’ll walk through a warren today so as to avoid the desert ahead. Ublala says Draconus should just go on himself—Ublala and his “wife” could go somewhere else and Ublala can also finally dump this annoying dream-causing armor and mace. Draconus answers that he will in fact leave them soon, but not yet, and warns that Ublala will need to weapon and armor soon as well. He asks if Ublala knows when something is unfair and if so, “do you do something about it? Or do you just turn away?” Ublala answers he doesn’t like bad thinks, something he tried telling the Toblakai god, but they ignored him so he and Iron Bars killed them. Draconus is struck silent a moment, then says, “I believe I have just done something similar.” He tells Ublala to keep his weapons.
SCENE EIGHT
Rudd moves through the camp, thinking how the thirst is killing them. On the outskirts of the camp, he is met by Kalt Urmanal and Nom Kala, who tell him they are deserters from an army led by First Sword T’oolan. When Nom Kala asks if Rudd is a Jaghut (she says he has the smell of ice about him), he asks if he looks like one and is surprised when she replies she’s never seen one. When he learns that the army of Imass led by Tool wasn’t summoned by the First Sword, but by Olar Ethil, Rudd says, “shit” and asks what she’s planning. Now Kala thinks Olar Ethil seeks “redemption.” She adds, though, that Tool remains “defiant.” Kalt, however, calls Tool a “Childslayer,” and says they don’t know his intent or the enemy he will choose. He suspects tool seeks “annihilation. Their or his own—he cares not how the bones fall.” Rudd wonders if maybe the enemy Tool chooses might be Olar Ethil herself, something the two T’lan Imass hadn’t considered. When they warn Rudd about the impossibility of crossing the desert, saying a god died there but remains, he tells them he knows all that, knows as well it’s a d’ivers gone mindless. Kalt tell Rudd “We have come to you because we are lost. Yet something sill holds us here
Perhaps, like you, we yearn to hope.” Rudd calls up the Unbound, and Urugal appears to announce they are seven again, “at last the House of Chains is complete.” Rudd thinks to himself: “All here now, Fallen One. I didn’t think you could get this far
How long have you been building this tale, this relentless book of yours?
Are you ready for your final, doomed attempt to win for yourself whatever it is you wish to win? See the gods assembling against you
See the ones who stepped up to clear this path ahead. So many have died
You took them all. Accepted their flaws
and blessed them. And you weren’t nice about it either, were you, But then, how could you be.” He wonders how long ago the Crippled God’s plans began and thinks, “Win or fail
he is as unwitnessed as we are. Adjunct, I am beginning to understand you, but that changed nothing
The book shall be a cipher. For all time.”
SCENE NINE
Pores, Kindly, and Sort discuss Blistig’s barrels of water, which he has yet to open. Kindly says he’ll put Fiddler’s marines and heavies on guard. Pores tells Sort the Bonehunters are about to announce their death sentence, give up, and she tells him to stop it. She asks if he can guard the water with just the marines and when he says yes she leaves. Sort leaves thinking, “Talk to the heavies Fiddler, Promise me we can do this.”
SCENE TEN
Blistig tells Shelemasa to kill the Khundryl horses, saying they can’t afford to give them water. But Shelemasa tells him the Khundryl are giving the horses their allotment and instead are drinking the horses’ blood. He asks what’s the point, saying there’s nothing left of the Khundryl anyway and that Tavore only brought them along out of pity. Hanavat arrives and tells him that’s enough, reminding him of the Wickans who won an “impossible” battle while Blistig hid in Aren. She says if he wants to complain, do so to Tavore, who has told the Khundryl to preserve their horses, then tells him to get out. He leaves and she and Shelemasa discuss how the will see things through. Gall appears with Jastara. He tells Shelemasa he will be with his sons soon. Jastara flees through the crowd due to Shelemasa’s scorn, and when a young Khundryl girl (one of Fiddler’s scouts) is about to throw a stone at her, Fiddler (here to look for his scouts) orders her not to. He joins Hanavat, Gall, and Shelemasa and tells them “No disrespect, but we don’t have time for all this shit. Your histories are just that—a heap of stories you keep dragging everywhere you go. Warleader Gall, all that doom you’re bleating on about is a waste of breath. We’re not blind . . The only questions you have to deal with now is how are you going to face that end? Like a warrior, or on your Hood-damned knees?” He leaves and Hanavat laughs at his “no disrespect, then says Fiddler was right.” She tells Gall they will not die on their knees, but Gall says he has killed his own, their own children, and he needs her to hate him. She answers she knows. He says the Burned Tears died at the Charge, but she denies that then leaves with Shelemasa, whom she orders to find Jastara and take back her words—”It is not for you to judge,” complaining “how often [it is] that those in no position to judge are the first to do so.”
SCENE ELEVEN
The army moves on under the light of the Jade Strangers. Lostara watches with Henar Vygul as Tavore puts on her hood and prepares to lead the vanguard. Henar tells Lostara of the festival of the Black-Winged Lord celebrated every decade in Bluerose to summon their god, when the High Priestess dons a shroud and leads a procession of thousands though silent streets to the water’s edge, where at dawn she throws a lantern into the water to quench its light, then cuts her own throat.
SCENE TWELVE
Hedge is impressed that Bavedict’s wagon, filled with munitions, (code name “kittens”) is being pulled by three dead oxen, thanks to Bavedict’s necromantic alchemy.
SCENE THIRTEEN
Widdershins recalls his drunk, abusive father and his mother killing him. Then remembers getting his army name from his Master-Sergeant (Braven Tooth I assume).
SCENE FOURTEEN
Balm, Widdershins, Throatslitter, Deadsmell take over guarding Blistig’s water wagon from the regulars Blistig had assigned (who look surprisingly hale). Badan Gruk’s squad is on the other side of the wagons. Throatslitter worries about how few they are, saying when the thirst fever is on it’s trouble. The heavies, meanwhile, have been assigned to the food hauler wagons.
SCENE FIFTEEN
Urb’s group—Burnt Rope, Lap Twirl, et. al. discuss the Bridgeburners being all dead, save for a few, and how they can’t expect help if there is trouble. Urb tells them there won’t be because they have Bridgeburners marching next to them and “they got kittens.”
SCENE SIXTEEN
Fiddler thinks how “letting go” is the easiest choice, the other choices are unpleasant and expectant and “he so wanted to turn away from them all. So wanted to let go.” He walks instead, knowing what the Adjunct wants from him and his marines and his heavies, the unfairness of it. He hears Whiskeyjack’s “chiding” voice inside of him: “‘You’ll do right soldier, because you don’t know how to do anything else. Doing right, soldier, is the only thing you’re good at.’ And if it hurts? ‘Too bad. Stop your bitching Fid. Besides, you ain’t as alone as you think you are.” He sees figures walking ahead of them.
Amanda’s Reaction
There are some writers who are known well for writing beautiful prose, but I rarely if ever see Erikson’s name on those lists. And yet he’s capable of writing like this:
“Since the Shards had left, only the butterflies and the flies remained, and there was something pure in these last two forces. One white, the other black. Only the extremes remained: from the unyielding ground below to the hollow sky above; from the push of life to the pull of death; from the breath hiding within to the last to leave a fallen child.”
There is something very dark here about these butterflies being eaters of the dead—we so often associate butterflies with being light creatures, and pretty, that reading here about them stripping the skins from the dead children feels rather horrific.
We have watched these children suffer for such a long time now—it just keeps on getting worse for them, and it is painful to see.
Gosh, there is quite a lot to take on board with that section featuring Kilava watching the Azath House created from Kettle. In particular, this thought about Olar Ethil: “…and she well understood the secret desires of Olar Ethil. Maybe the hag would succeed. The spirits knew, she was ripe for redemption.” It seems as though Kilava is quite clear about what Olar Ethil and Tool are up to—just a shame she isn’t planning to share that with us readers, hey?
This is another interesting perspective about the Crippled God as well:
“In this way, all that he had become—his very place in the pantheon—had been forged by the gods themselves. And now they feared him. Now, they meant to kill him.”
It certainly shows the gods as having a lack of foresight or understanding, a real sense of fallibility—and that isn’t something we’re really used to seeing when it comes to gods.
How ominous does this sound about the arrival of the dragons?
“The destruction they would bring to this world would beggar the dreams of even the Forkrul Assail. And once upon the mortal realm, so crowded with pathetic humans, there would be slaughter on a colossal scale.”
Hmm, is Trake trying to get Gruntle to the gate where the dragons are going to come through to the mortal realm? It strikes me that Gruntle may be one of the few able to go toe to toe with a dragon.
Certainly Trake is willing to use his power to provide Gruntle with companions in the battle he faces ahead
That flexing of power feels as though it could only happen now that we’re heading towards the final convergence.
“Chains” is definitely another word in this series that had heavier connotations that just being a word—it seems carefully chosen. Here, especially, with Mappo, and the idea that every thought rattling in his head is like a chain. Mappo is certainly one of those so broken that he should be a follower of the Crippled God.
Wow! All those insects in the desert are d’ivers! And this is another example of how there are so many stories within the Book of the Fallen, and we can never know them all. This d’ivers is ancient, and has not sembled in thousands of years. It was once a god and someone tore it apart, into so many pieces it is unable to heal and find itself. There is one hell of a story there, and we are unlikely to ever know it.
And yet another hint of a story—but this one we might see in the Kharkanas trilogy. Where Silchas Ruin and his brother decided to take on T’iam’s blood in order to bring peace to Kurald Galain. Here is the disturbing part:
“Of course, that meant crushing every House opposing us. Regrettable […] The thousands who died could not make us hesitate, could not stop us from continuing.”
It seems to be one of those situations where killing millions might protect billions, but you still can’t see the humanity in the decision.
I somehow don’t think that Silchas Ruin’s plan to sideline Ryadd is going to come to fruition—something is going to bring this powerful Eleint onto the battlefield, I’m sure.
Hmm, is it coincidence that we hear all this stuff about the dragons coming, and then learn that the mace Ublala Pung has inherited is called ‘dragon-killer’?
These are some powerful words, and something that we have seen in our own world and time: “Simple need had the power to crush entire civilizations, to bring down all order in human affairs. To reduce us to mindless beasts.”
Another little addition to the mystery of Ruthan Gudd, where Nom Kala says that there is the smell of ice about him, and asks if he is Jaghut. It also sounds as though he was a contemporary of Gallan—before he became Blind Gallan.
It is chilling here, where Ruthan Gudd comprehends the scope of the Crippled God’s preparations—as he watches these two T’lan Imass join with the other five and become seven again: “the House of Chains is complete.” And a dark reminder that it is the Crippled God who poisoned the gates, and so is the cause of the Eleint being able to break through to the mortal realm. Is he relying on them to kill the gods who have trapped him and bled him? Scary stuff:
“He knew then, with abject despair, that he would never comprehend the full extent of the Crippled God’s preparations. How long ago had it all begun? On what distant land? By whose unwitting mortal hand?”
Especially scary because of how long-lived and Elder we are now understanding that Ruthan Gudd is.
Ugh, Blistig is a right bastard. It’s so hard to read his sections—seeing his despair and the pain he is causing other people, especially the Khundryl.
The scene with Hanavat and the other Khundryl, after Fiddler has come down on them, is so quiet and dignified. And where Hanavat tells Shelemasa not to wait too long—well, that makes me feel so sad about what seems the inevitable death they all walk towards.
And then a tiny spark of humour in the scene with Hedge, especially when Bavedict tells him the oxen pulling the munitions have been dead for three days now.
Aww, a carriage full of kittens!
You know the incredible thing? These Bonehunters and Bridgeburners are suffering so much, and yet they still find the will to bicker and talk and be part of each other.
Bill’s Reaction
That’s a great mixed image to open with—the butterflies “white as bone.” We usually think of butterflies as creatures of beauty and life so the contrast is particularly effective here, and appropriate considering how they feed, and then later to find out they are a d’ivers.
The imagery that follows, however, is simply horrific, though it is, as Badalle thinks, the horror of a truth that cannot be denied, or fled from. That idea of her haunting those whose bellies are full is starkly powerful, as is her line, “History has claws.”
There’s a wonderful (and again horrific) symmetry to this chapter, to these scenes. We have the Snake marching through this desert, dying of thirst, dropping right and left. And we have the Bonehunters, marching through this desert, dying of thirst, dropping right and left. Neither group is fully sure what it is they march toward, though many/most think they march toward their end. Badalle imagines Saddic dead and Fiddler’s group think of themselves as the “Walking Dead.” Both groups serve as an indictment—of neglect, of lack of compassion, of turning away. Both groups have leaders—Rutt and Tavore—who carry burdens (Tavore’s more metaphorical). Does the parallel extend to blindness as well? Finally, note how this first scene ends with the word “walk” and the last scene ends with the word “walking.”
Several references to Olar Ethil seeking redemption in this chapter. What sort of redemption? By what method? For what crime or sin? She’s an elusive figure, for all the talk we get of her, and all the times we hear her own words from her mouth.
Also lots of references to the Eleint coming through no matter what. It’s getting harder to imagine there will be any sort of intervention to prevent that at the Gate. Which isn’t much of a surprise I’d say—we’ve been set up for this dragon storm for some time now.
Interesting that Kilava, along with thinking she knows what Olar Ethil plans, also seem pretty sure about what her brother Tool plans as well.
The road to the revamping the reader’s view of the Crippled God continues in this scene, with Kilava’s imagery creating a sense of sympathy and pity and, of course, compassion for the god. The idea of his “agony,” of his “chaining,” how the gods did so “again and again,” is “wretched suffering,” the cruelty of the gods’ “turning away” from that suffering. And note there the parallel language to what we’ve seen Tavore use in her discussion of compassion: “Look into his eyes, Kindly, before you choose to turn away.” The way she blames the gods for what he became, and the way she thinks the gods will try and kill him out of fear.
The Crippled God comes in as well for some reshaping in our minds from earlier books when Gruntle in the next scene thinks of the horrors of the Pannion War (which had the CG behind it), but then thinks:
“But if he understood the truths behind that war, there had been a wounded thing at the very core of the Domin, a thing that could only lash out, claws bared, so vast, so consuming was its pain. And though he was not yet ready for it, a part of him understood that forgiveness was possible and the knowledge gave him something close to peace. Enough to live with.”
Gruntle is thinking here of the Pannion Seer rather than the CG, but the analogy is pretty clear I’d say (not to mention there was arguably two wounded things—one behind the other behind the war)
I find the passage where Gruntle thinks back on those he misses and the ways his life might have gone to be quite moving. And also a bit ominous.
Speaking of ominous, opening up Mappo’s chapter with a dry sea of bones and then a few paragraphs later having him considering how tired he has grown of living, and thinking to himself he has but one thing to do, is just a bit gloomy as well.
And from there to the aching existentialism of the idea of why enter into love, into family (and one would assume friendship of a higher level) when it must by nature end in betrayal, i.e. death. Now that’s a prescription for a miserable life. This is one depressed Mappo here. I like too how Erikson in this philosophical discussion (and you know how I love these deeper digressions) continues to use the language of “walking.” Yes, it is “meaningless,” and yet the Snake continues to walk, and the Bonehunters continue to walk, and yes, they are the “Walking Dead,” because aren’t we all every moment of every day? And yet we “walk.” It’s hard not to fear, really fear, for Mappo in this scene. Not from the d’ivers (and it’s nice to have that cleared up a bit, though mystery still exists), but from his own thoughts.
Speaking of some “clearing up,” Ruin’s conversation with Ryadd is surprisingly informative and straightforward. Sure, there’s the whole where’s this sword from and why did Shadowthrone give it to me mystery that opens up the dialogue, but all that speech about the dragons and what happens in groups of them etc. is pretty easy to follow. And a “storm” of dragons would be a thing to see. Wonder if we will So we’ve got the Eleint seemingly unable to be stopped from coming through, we have the Otataral Dragon being freed by our triumvirate of Elder gods, we’ve got Ruin saying he’s up for a fight as a dragon, we’ve got sly references to others as well (certainly we know several characters who veer), we’ve got a pair of characters who are sometimes dragons (hanging out with Olar Ethil if you recall), we’ve got some dragons Cotillion spoke to. Lots of dragons have been mentioned—will they all “boil” when the time comes? Talk about a convergence (a conflagration of convergences? Like a murder of crows?)
And how likely is it that Ryadd will stay on the sidelines, “safe”?
Like Ublala’s visions (how often have we seen this idea of a “fall”—appropriately so for this series title), not a fan of Ublala sex talk or of Ralata “relent[ing].”
What does Draconus know that makes him so sure Ublala will need his weapon and armor. And soon? (perhaps Draconus, like my Kindle, knows we’re almost halfway done). And what might it have to do with “fairness”? Note again that repetition of language: “Do you do something about it? Or do you just turn away?”
Boy I love the mystery of Rudd. “How the fuck do you know that?” indeed. Not to mention the “smell of ice” about him. And what does he know so well about “punishment. Retribution”? This certainly sounds like painful personal experience. Did he have the satisfaction once of vengeance? Of getting rid of some bastard(s)? And did that sense of satisfaction turn to “dust” in his mouth? Like he says, the T’lan Imass are indeed a walking metaphor for so much.
I do, however, like how his thoughts, so spot on about the T’lan Imass in general, are followed immediately by two T’lan Imass who have deserted an army, who do not seek vengeance, one of whom has never even seen a Jaghut—their alleged vengeance-soaked obsession. The universe always surprises
Note how immediate Rudd’s response is to news of Olar Ethil meddling: “Shit.” Seems he knows her pretty well. The mystery grows. As it does a bit later when he knows so much about the god who died here, the d’ivers aspect, the way it’s lost itself.
Speaking of surprise, I like how he surprises the two T’lan Imass with his idea that maybe the enemy Tool chooses is Olar Ethil herself (something we as readers have a bit more insight into thanks to Tool’s POV)
Like the reader, Rudd wonders just how long this preparation for the Crippled God has been in place. Will we learn by the end of the series how far back this all goes? And who all was involved? We’ve certainly had a sense of the obvious convergence coming, with everyone now marching into or near the desert, everyone heading the same way. But with the “Now we are seven,” you get a larger sense of the pieces being set up, the game nearly afoot.
And once more, from the reader’s perspective, this line has to echo: “The book shall be a cipher.”
It’s one thing to have Blistig carp about what the army is doing, and another to think he doesn’t want to see the soldiers killed for nothing, but the sheer meanness and pettiness of his outburst at Shelemasa about Tavore taking them along for pity etc. is far worse in my mind.
And another parallel story of forgiveness and empathy and judgment with the whole Gall—Hanavat—Jastara—Shelemas quartet.
And Fiddler. Is there a scene this character doesn’t steal. Just those three words “Belay that scout!” is enough to get me. And I love, as did Hanavat, the “no disrespect” line he opens with before laying into the Khundryl, shaking them awake.
Of all the foreboding in this chapter, is there anything more grimly menacing, more creepily ominous, than that memory Henar has of the procession and the High Priestess cutting her own throat? That was an uber-powerful scene I thought.
One of the things I love about this series is you can have lines like, “I can’t believe I died for this.” That’s a classic.
Anyone think a wagon full of kittens might be important down the road? (even outside of the many Youtube videos Bavedict could make with them )
I like the little background we get to Widdershins. The more we know these grunts the better I think.
Hard to believe something isn’t going to happen with these water wagons, with all the set up we’ve had about them.
Fiddler. Oh Fiddler. If you put Fiddler, Cotillion, and Quick Ben in the same scene at the end here, I might just explode. He just does what is right. How many times have we seen this? And while it seems a bit of a cliffhanger, I think the reader can make a pretty good guess at who those figures are he sees coming toward them. And knowing Fiddler, and thinking about what his interior monologue was saying here, it isn’t a stretch to predict what will happen. And it will stab you in the heart anyway, predicted or not. Right. In. The. Heart.
Amanda Rutter is the editor of Strange Chemistry books, sister imprint to Angry Robot.
Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.
Ruin’s conversation with Ryadd is really interesting.
The glimpse of figures in the distance by Fiddler is heart breakingly tantalyzing.
For those that are interested, SE did a deconstruction of his writing process for the Snake section of this chapter on the Life As A Human blog:
http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/arts-culture/books/steven-eriksons-notes-on-a-crisis-part-iv-the-next-novel/
Very interesting to read through!
I agree with stevenhalter. Heart breaking.
Urugal’s statement about being complete doesn’t refer to the Seven only, but to the House of Chains in general. Keep this in mind, although not all members of the House are doing their job. Time to fill in the roles? Unfortunately I don’t have the time atm to go into the books and dig into the malazanempire forums.
I really love seeing POV’s with our Marines and Heavies and their quirks (the situations where Throatslitter is being made to laugh out loud just to annoy the other squads is one of my favourites), no matter which squad. The fact that they have been assigned to guard the water train is a warning about the seriousness of the Blistig situation indeed.
And I love it how Hedge wants to call his munitions ‘kittens’ just to keep the Bonehunter sappers stay unaware of the fact they still have munitions, and then seeing Urb being happy to see the Bridgeburners marching alongside them, ‘because they have kittens’.
These are powerful chapters. For all that they are the typical “people walking from here to there” travel segments that plague the genre, I think SE is masterful here and in most other places of the entire series to invest them with so much action, characterization, meaning, mood-setting, and info-not-quite-dumping. A good example is the Glass Desert – over the course of the bonehunters walking in it, and the Snake walking in it, and now Mappo – it has taken on its own essence and makes possible the characetrization of something that is not even there – the torn-apart god.
Speaking of the Torn-apart God going mindlessly D’ivers in the Glass Desert, have any first readers deduced yet which god this would be?
Unless I’m wrong, there have been a few clues seeded already.
I’m guessing the Bonehunters and the Snake are finnaly meeting in those last lines of the chapter? It sure seems so with the small boy appearing out of nowhere and then shapes in the distance…
So what happens to the water of the Bonehunters, they share it with the children and then Badalle uses teleport army spell/song ? Sorry, couldn’t resist. This chapter was another bleak one and the Hedge – Bavedict dialogue was not enough to lighten the mood.
That is some pretty grim stuff from Mappo, Gruntle and Widdershins. Particularly in terms of their lost families – Icarium, Stonny and Harllo and H. Junior, and the senior Widdershins, etc.
Can someone remind me of the story of how Ublala and Iron Bars killed the Toblakai gods?
Rudd – I thought he was one of those flying monkey-things who helped Baruk collect Duiker’s soul at the end of DHG?
I for one wish Kilava’s internal monologue had been as informative as the conversation between Ruin and Ryadd. Does anyone know what Olar Ethil’s plan is at this point, or even at all?
I agree with Bill that the “relenting” of Ralata seems just a shade wrong, even though I know it is probably just comic relief.
@3 Fiddler, regarding the House of Chains being complete, can someone explain (maybe in the spoiler thread) what the point of Skinner being King of the HOC is? Blood and Bone was too opaque for me in terms of having any idea was Skinner thought he was supposed to be up to at this time over in the jungle.
@7 & all – Unless I missed a re-read specific sobriquet, I think there was a bunch of Rudd/Ruthan Gudd conflation in the chapter synopses & in Bill’s response. It threw me for a loop at first. And yes, Rudd was one of Baruk’s familiars. (And Rud Elalle is another name for Ryadd, I believe). Hundreds of characters with fantastical names in these books, so it is understandable and quite forgivable to mix them up from time to time. (In this vein, just wait for FoD for some frustrating name similarities.)
As for the chapter itself, I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’ve been fascinated with Ublala’s dream section each time I’ve read it. So many little juicy story gems to mine. I want to know so much more about these Teblor heroes of antiquity. What a delicious tease.
And from a structure standpoint, this is such a well delivered chapter as characters and character groups are literally moving into place. Convergences indeed.
We do need a term for a convergence mass-noun. How about: A Kruppe of Convergences?
An addendum: I recall from my first-read finishing Chapter 14 and having the sensation of numerous internal spot-fires of concern, fascination, and worry as I was tallying the questions I had for the series and the quickly dwindling remaining page count in which they could be answered. (Heh!) I am the type of reader who somewhat dreads finishing a book, a series, or the last output of an author that I love.
Chapter 14 was also the point in my first-read of TCG where I couldn’t put the book down and read until 3am or 4am, and only went to bed so that I could have a clear head for the final push. After finishing the next afternoon, I gave myself that night off, and then went back to Chapter 14 and read the series ending anew.
It’s all happening, people. Hold on to your telabas.
@7
So.
Ublala & Iron Bars killed the Toblakai gods when they were emerging from the Azath at the end of MT. They were The Seregahl, the ones the Toblakai pray that they stay away.
Rudd = Ruthan Gudd. Bill made a typo, then kept things consistently wrong ;)
Olar Ethil has a plan, but it is rather insane, like she actually is.
So, High House Chains as we know it based on the books to here. Some positions will be revealed later in the book, so I whited them out.
Ruler – the Crippled God
King – Skinner, formerly Rhulad Sengar. At this point off collecting bits of CG as per SW.
Consort – Tavore Paran, previously Poliel.
Reaver – Kallor. Last seen in Genabackis. Not sure how he is actually being useful at this point.
Knight – Karsa Orlong. Lurking in Darujhistan, waiting to kill a god.
The Seven of the Dead Fires – The Unbound T’lan Imass.
Herald – currently empty, previously Gethol
Magi – currently empty, previously Bidithal.
Cripple – Banaschar
Leper – Silgar. Last seen chopped to bits by Karsa. That went well. (Later to be Fiddler)
Fool – Banaschar, as per Fiddler’s reading in DoD.
I would hope there would be some forgiveness,compassion and empathy for characters specifically beyond those that SE is shining a light at. Like Blistig here. Its funny how authorial inferences can change our viewpoints. The CG has killed millions by lashing out. Blistig has just wounded verbally in this chapter. Is it one rule for the CG, another for Blistig on forgiveness? Becasue the magnitude of the CG’s crimes are staggering.
@Mayhem: There are a couple individuals who could fill those empty spots…not sure if they fit perfectly (and I’ll white them out): Munug as Cripple (as you say, Banaschar is still Fool as of now) and Felisin Jr. (less certain about that, not sure if she’d make a good Magi or Herald).
Sorry guys. Think I accidentally auto corrected Gudd to Rudd all the way through Eoin: I didn’t mean to imply Blistig’s scene was unforgivable, or the character was. Just that I reacted with more distaste to that versus his acts because this one was just so petty and unnecessarily cruel with intent to wound. I actually pity Blistig quite a bit and think he’s a good stand in for how many and perhaps most would react to those situation.
@13I agree, Blistig is a real regular joe in many ways. It was cruel and spiteful. But, and I’ve said before, the almost offically sanctioned by SE pseudo-apologism towards the CG’s monstrous inhuman actions is really jarring for me to compare with what is at most verbal jabs from Blistig.
The CG sanctioned and encouraged cannibalism. That cannot and should never be forgotten. Wheras Blistig saved Aren.
@10 – Thank you, Mayhem, for the refresher on Ublala and Iron Bars’ feat.
So Skinner’s task is collecting the bits and pieces of the CG in far-flung continents. Got it.
@Eoin8472 I hear where you are coming from when you wrote “I would hope there would be some forgiveness,compassion and empathy for [Blistig],” and I think many on this reread (especially the rereaders) entirely agree with you. I am going to come back to this, but for now I just want to say: Exactly!
I don’t want to wander into spoiler territory here, but I guess I feel like the “Why CG but not Blistig” is a bit of a false dichotomy, and it’s not considering where these characters are in their personal arcs/journeys. Blistig and Kaminsod are in very different places than they were 8-9 books ago, and in a lot of ways, their situations are inverted. Blistig as a character started off reacting well to a difficult situation, and has been through many more harrowing experiences since, and is handling them less than well, and as Bill so succinctly put it, “he’s a good stand in for how many and perhaps most would react to those situation(s).” Kaminsod was entrapped, brought to Wu against his will, shattered, imprisoned, tortured, and flails out against powerful entities who are literally feeding off of his heart and trying to destroy whatever remains of him. But then he somehow finds allies, not tools to use. And I find that distinction crucial.
I guess what I am saying is that there are scores of morally questionable characters in this series that disgust us to varying degrees, but we are able to care for, to find humanity in: The Felisins, Tool, Dancer & Kellanved, Kalam & Quick Ben, Sorry & Cutter, Icarium & Mappo, Surly/Laseen, Karsa, all the Elder gods, Tavore, Toc Anaster, the freaking Pannion Seer and his Matron, Spite & Envy- just to name a few off the top of my head.
But I think phrases such as “authorial inferences” (re. forgiveness) and “almost officially sanctioned by SE pseudo-apologism towards the CG” are really selling the series and Erikson short. If I am interpreting you correctly, it reads like you are saying Erikson is trying to trick us(?) into forgiving the CG through narrative shenanigans and slight of hand. Or that he is lying to us somehow? Or at the most extreme, you are positing that there is no way that the CG can be pitied. ( Just my interpretations of your post,not trying to put words in you mouth.) I mean, I get where that sentiment comes from- you aptly said, Eoin8472, The Crippled God’s crimes are staggering. But I feel like leaving it at that is missing a/the major theme of the series: Even the Crippled God can deserve (our) compassion (and that Tavore could’ve seen this from so far away makes it even more staggering).
I hope I am not ruffling feathers by going into this – that’s not my intent. (I also hope I haven’t stumbled into spoiler territory, seriously not my intent.) I like that you are sticking up for Fist Blistig. He does have a rough go of it in the last two Malazan books. but to reduce the capacity for compassion for the Crippled God as narrative trickery is seriously underestimating Erikson. In my opinion, he isn’t telling us, but showing/instructing us (the reader) how to also be capable of such compassion.
Which is one of that many reasons why this series continuously blows my mind.
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TLDR version: Eoin8472 ~ Exactly!
Very nicely said Studious. As I mentioned a post or a few ago, I’m holding off on saying much about the whole CG change-over/forgiveness bit until the very end, so I can talk about it in its entirety (again, just a personal preference, not a general request), so I’ll just say I think you’re spot on here (even though I can understand why some readers might have issues with both the idea and the method of conveying the idea)
I believe that Blistig is a stand in for good people acting well even in some very bad situations (Aren) but if they are forced repeatedly to go through them they just crack. Some people don’t and some people do. It’s just the way it is.
Gall is not that far from becoming a Blistig himself. If I remember correctly, Blistig was just as broken by the events in/near Aren. Just let a few years pass in hate,pain and self pity and voila…we have a Blistig as depicted here. And Blistig does not have someone like Hanavat to at least try and help him sort things out. Just him and the chains/thoughts inside his head.
It still baffles me why didn’t Tavore at least try and talk some sense into Blistig (doubt if she could now, but maybe if she started after Malaz city)
P.S.: Coming to think of it Duiker could also have been a Blistig. Thank the gods for people like the retired BB’s and Scillara and Co.
I think a good quote for this dicussion is: “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the wold. It must be given freely. In abundance.” From the third book. In a sense the Bonehunters actions aren’t about forgiveness but compassion. It’s about righting an ancient wrong, not forgiving or forgetting the Cripple God for his actions.
That being said I’m not the biggest fan of Tavore, I’d definitly be a Blistig–perhaps because of my cynical nature, but I’d never follow a person through an unpassable desert without knowing why, and she doesn’t have exactly the best track record with battles and commanding, indeed I would have little faith have in her ability to lead us to the ‘promise land’ as it were. This scene here is just Blistig being a petty jagoff but at the end of the day I don’t think his position is really all that strange (I’ve never been big on faith, in the supernatural sense, or in unproven people which I hold Tavore to be–though I think I’d trust enough people in leader positions that trust Tavore to go along with it).
And now since I feel like all I do is be critical in the comments; the Snake is one of my favourite storylines of all the books. I’ve always enjoyed SE’s treatment of children. Often in books kids are given an almost religious quality to them, fragile, pure–inhuman really–things in which the adults can reflect their selves onto and measure their worth against. SE never does that, he always shows kids first and foremost as people and I really appericate that.
@eoin & BDG, feeling the same way here.
Did everyone forget about the banner of the half eaten child from the siege of Capustan? Or the children of the dead seed?
I can understand the resons why Kaminsod did what he did…but how can someone involved in those events forgive what he did?Compassion, yes. Forgivness, i dont’t think so…
I just want to point out I’m not beyond forgiveness, it’s a pretty important part of healing I think. But ultimately I don’t think the Malazan’s quest is about forgiveness but about a general underlining compassion for all life, even those we would deem unworthy for it (like the Cripple God) because without that compassion and empathy for the ‘worst’ we already undercut the very concept of it and thus making it hollow and some we use to control and favour people. Like the quote says it is to be given freely, in abudance.
@eoin.
I’d like to point you at the comment from Kargul back in chapter 11 which summarises the timelines rather well. The key point there is during MoI the Crippled God was a behind the scenes manipulator, but not the main driver. Pannion was. And what happened in the Pannion Domin was horrific, but actually understandable. Pannion is a Jaghut, tortured in the Rent. He knows nothing of empathy, and cares nothing for humanity – after all, we are descended from the Imass, his enemies.
Cannibalism is terrible, but also a way that the tenescowri could survive in a world with no food, a world consuming itself. And then Capustan happens, which makes the CG draw back a little. And Pannion is left on his own with Toc, and starts to learn a little about empathy and compassion, as does the Seerdomin.
But remember. Compassion is not absolution, nor is it forgiveness. And it certainly wouldn’t involve forgetting. A comparison with our world here – the Ottoman Empire and the British empire clashed in WWI at Gallipoli. It was messy, as war is, and cost the lives of a great many Australian and NZ troops, and many more Turks whose country was invaded. Yet every year people from both sides gather to commemorate the fallen, and Kemal Ataturk, one of the commanders who later became the leader of Turkey, wrote the following as a message to his enemies.
Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours… you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.
And just to add, most of the greatest actions in the series – for good or ill – have been done by ordinary humans, with completely understandable motivations.
Itkovian. Tehol. Rath’Fener. Anaster. Even the mother of Anaster, who was quite possibly mentally affected by prion disease at that point given her diet.
Nothing forced them to do what they did, other than the tide of inevitability from how events have lead them to that point. And that is why it is so easy to show empathy – because the characters are understandable and relatable.
Hmmm, true, Kaminsod was not the direct perpetrator of the events in the Pannion War but he was involved directly in Rhulad’s madness and eventual downfall (followed bty that of the Edur)…did not stop even when it was clear that Karsa would not take the cursed sword and would not allow Rhulad , who was a wreck, to take it.
The moment when Kaminsod said to Rhulad to pick up the sword again in order to find forgiveness from his brother Trull and he grasps for it with hope in his eyes only to be killed one last time by Karsa still haunts me.
Was this a result of desperation on Kaminsod’s part?
My point on SE sorta officially sanctioning the forgivenss of the Cg, is that through DoD and the TCG, I was waiting for any discussion at all amoung Tavores officers as to why exactly the TCG should be forgiven. I wanted an argument where the CGs past crimes are brought up (and they are many, I don’t put most of the Domin’s crimes on Pannion at all, remember at the end of MoI when Pannion feels better when he is protected against the TCG’s poision. Kaminsod therefore fed Pannion on hate, not the other way round) and the defense ,for lack of a better word, has to convince the rest that it is the right thing to do.
I’m veru surprised that people like Hedge/Quick Be/Paran and Gruntle as well in this chapter, who actually did fight in that way don’t have this argument. Its just not realistic for me for all the ‘good’ charactersto jump to the conclusion that we have to forgive him. Not without the debate which should happen.
As I said before, its easy to feel compassion when its self-serving to do so. If The CG wsn’t posinioning the Warrens/Burn, or the Forkrul Assail wasn’t going to use his heart to destroy the worl, or the Jade Giants were not coming in to strike, would there be the same argumentless compassion for an entity that mandated cannibalism and may have encouraged Poliels plague against 7 Cities?
I do think there is an element of narrative shannigans that is pushing this view. I’m not buying the CG love fest if characters like Blistig get disparaged as a result for laughable in comparison offenses (so far).
So all tCG has known and experienced since being pulled down is shattering, chaining, pain and suffering. Literally the entire time he has been on Wu he has been tied down, fed off of and abused over and over. Is it any wonder that the only way he knows how (initially) to respond to that in order to free himself is to lash out in the same way?
I feel like that’s what we do too. If all we’ve known is pain and suffering isn’t that often what we afflict upon ourselves and others? Misery loves company, they say. tCG’s misery is on the epic scale, as is his response. Justification for his actions? No, but I can see why he acted as he did.
I think it’s possible to feel compassion, even pity for someone who has experienced that. And yes even forgiveness if contrition / repentance is there. I would also note that compassion and forgiveness are not necessarily the same, nor does forgiveness preclude justice etc.
Wait, what?
@tabby: At the end of RotCG, the Disavowed washed up on the CG’s island and Skinner took the mantle of King of Chains (the CG’s reply was “it’s about time someone takes it” because Karsa had refused). In SW we saw Skinner and the Disavowed stealing one of the three holy treasures of The Lady of Benevolence, which we believe to be a fragment of the CG. Presumably Skinner is collecting lots of these scattered fragments.
As for the other positions in the House of Chains, we’ll get a really good breakdown in a couple more chapters.
OH! I thought he was saying that Skinner actually was Rhulad, as in, same person, new name.
But apparently he was saying the King of Chains used to be Rhulad, and now it’s Skinner. Two different people, same title.
Phew.
@26But its the inconsistency that drives me nuts. I am not against compassion towards the CG. Not at all. But if other characters like Blistig and Tanakalian got the book thrown at them for their actions, I have to cry foul in a big way.
Ha, theres literally an element of “Too Big to Fail” with the CG’s wrongs and the likes of Blistig when the viewpoint characters think about them. And that is most assuredly not fair on Blistig.
@30 But the Bonehunters aren’t offering him absolution or redemption even. What there offering him is compassion, which I will point out is the key thematic element of the entire series–one I would bet SE wanted to best highlight with using the Cripple God as the recipient of said compassion to highlight the need to give compassion freely and without judgement (is it coincident that main villains are obesse with justice? I don’t really think so).
I don’t know what else you want really. A trial? What good would that do for the victims, none of whom are in attendence? I don’t think anyone is saying the Cripple God is good people, but just because he isn’t good people doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve compassion for his lot in life. When we deny those consider the worst of what humanity has to offer compassion, or empathy for their fellow humanhood, we erode a little bit of human (or really living being) worth, we draw a box around the unworthy and thus around worthy and from this initial dehumanization we set a precedent for all others.
And while I agree with you about Blistig, as I said I’m a Blistig–I wouldn’t trust a commander who wouldn’t tell me anything about the end goal of my mission nor would I follow someone on faith alone through an unpassable desert with Y’Ghatan and the Short-Tail battle under her belt, I’m, finding it harder to agree with you on Tanakalian who literally wants to be a weapon of genocide for wolf gods. Dudes the worst.
I don’t mind not giving Blisting the free pass actually. He’s not a trench soldier, who I’d more than happily agree with you about. In fact, we get a lot of that “what the hell are we doing” attitude amongst the soldiers for whom I think the follow more because what the heck else are they going to do at this point. That and loyalty to each other and their immediate commanders – the Hellians, the Fiddlers etc.
Blistig is a Fist, he’s in a position of command. His attitude is unconscionable for that reason. His duty would be not to show that attitude to the rank and file and bring it up to his compatriots in command. He’s close enough (if not to Tavore) then to Kindly, Keneb, Faradan Sort and other ranking officers to get a handle on things. I’m not saying they all know Tavore’s inner motivations but they aren’t blindly following either. They are trying to figure things out. And if even some of the squads are working it out there is no reason why Blistig shouldn’t.
Here’s another thing about Tavore. You ask why she won’t tell anyone anything. I think she’s grooming them to survive. If in Blistig’s case that means that I’m going to survive in spite of your efforts to get us all killed then that’s what she’ll do. For another it might mean revealing more. But don’t you think that she isn’t saying much for the exact reasons that Eoin is pointing to? How can she be sure that her army is going to feel compassion for the Crippled God after all he has done? She can’t, so she’s letting them work it out slowly on their own. That’s how I see it anyway.
As much as I love the books the trust any of the higher officers have in Tavore has always been mind boggingly to me. Honestly any of those people you mention would be a better fit for leading the BH. She killed her sister (which granted only a few people know about) and put her the position to be killed in the first place, got them into Y’Ghatan, was basically useless during the Short Tail attack, had one of the most senior and talented soldiers killed in Malaz City (Kalam…*wink), accepted the alliance of a genocidal wolf cult. She honestly doesn’t seem like a good person to follow into certain death, if for no other reason than she seems to be haunted by terrible luck. That’s not to say I don’t agree with her goal, I do agree with it, I’m just not particularly sold on her as a leader of people.
I’d follow literally any of the Fists, but her? Probably not, tenfold if I was a leading officer and she had not told me the goal on the otherside the desert nor the plan on getting acrose. Her lack of trust in her troops lack in trust in her command is probably because she doesn’t tell them anything, and I don’t just mean the grunts (who seem to fall-in-line). Basically all I’m saying is if I was a Fist in the army at this moment of the story I’d definitly be a Blistig, though without the pettiness (but I’m sure you can tell I’m not particularly cut out for a military life).
She also took a completely raw, untrained and dispirited army and defeated the Whirlwind rebellion, extricated herself and her whole fleet from Malaz (yes at a cost of a character we happen to like, but storywise an acceptable price for a whole army), successfully invaded/liberated Letheri and made them allies in one swoop. Also, she doesn’t know she killed her sister either, none of that was supposed to happen. Furthermore, the Perish were good allies under Krughava, it’s only under Tanakalian that they have changed.
Y’Ghatan was a disaster yes, but let’s give the devious mind of Leoman the credit there shall we? As for the Nah’ruk it seems pretty clear to me that there was a good chunk of the Errant’s push in that.
I just don’t think you are giving Tavore enough credit for the shaping and success the Bonehunters have had. I believe that’s why the other Fists and Captains spend more of their time trying to figure her out than question her.
I think you could add ghosts, Karsa, and the Whirlwind rebellion, defeating the Whirlwind rebellion you could before the BHs. And your right now of that other stuff was suppose to happen but it did on her clock. It doesn’t matter that she doesn’t know she killed her sister, she was the one who A) sent her to a prision, B) left her in the hands of a psychopath, and C) then murdered her. And it was indeed Errant’s push, but the doesn’t mean she couldn’t have handled it better–she the most useless part of the officer staff for that entire sordid affair. And Y’Ghatan was a disator which again she handled poorly.
Which leaves Letherii invasion which was good, and was mostly a success because of the individual leadership of Captains and sergeants, and the Perish, another decision that turned up bad. Honestly the best thing she did was not let the Wickans get slaughtered but outside that there’s not a lot of W’s in her record. I think shes good at putting smart and talented people around her, superior leaders, I just don’t particularly think shes good at leading herself.
The way I see it the Bonehunters were shaped by ‘middle mangement’. Sergeants, Captains, Fists, and so on. Everytime something bad happens those are the people who step up, so you can credit her with having the good sense to put good people around her and having a pretty good plan on how to save the world, but she’s not exactly a trust-worthy leader of humans.
Who says anything about a free pass for Blistig. Is it too much to show compassion for him also? Because he sure ain’t getting any from some of the readers judging by the comments and reactions…Is he not an understandable character like so many others? Or is it that we’re all so invested in the Bonehunters that if someone does something that endangers them from within they are somehow more reprehensible, more guilty and not deserving of empathy/compassion? Hmmm…
BDG,
Re: Felisin. Tavore did take precautions to protect Felisin. She sent Baudin, a Talon, along with her. He was to protect her and arrange an escape (with help from outside, IIRC; don’t have my book at hand, but I seem to recall Kulp’s expedition was sent to retrieve them and Heboric). Maybe Mayhem can shed more light on this, with his excellent quote-fu.
Admitted, the whole situation ended up in a huge clusterf*ck, mostly because Felisin kept attaching herself to that Prison Camp Tyrant.
Maybe free pass was too strong a word… But no, I don’t feel particularly compassionate to him because as I said he was in a position to do what the others of his rank are doing and he obstinately refuses to do so. Also he should know that his actions as a Fist impact the rest of his command. He well knows what his indiscipline can do. Discipline is key to any army. His attitude imperils the army as much or more than any lack of communication from Tavore. He is the one thing a soldier MAY not be and he ought to know that.
I can to some extent sympathize with his feeling, but not with his response to them, not for his sake but for that of the men and women he command. I don’t feel that’s hypocritical in relation to the Crippled God because tCG has at least demonstrated a capacity to change from what I’ve already admitted are monstrous actions, and so far Blistig has not.
Fiddler gives the reasoning behind Felisin. I’d argue that Y’Ghatan was reasonably well handled. How was Tavore to know that Leoman was planning to use his stronghold and army in basically a suicide tactic from which only he escaped? They did recover as much of the army as possible when the stuff hit the fan.
What is clear so far is that Tavore is pretty polarizing in the minds of readers. :)
I think my previous post still sounds harsher than I intend on Blistig. My problem is not what he feels but what he does about it. And the difference with him and tCG is there were people he could possibly have turned to, where tCG until recently had no one to turn to.
@38…Wow.
You are going to give compassion to the CG, but not to Blistig? Thats staggering. Whatevers about disipline and structure of an army, the CG has sanctioned monstrous monstrous crimes. Blistig saved Aren and denied the Whirlwind a complete takeover of 7-Cities. There is no comparison in my mind. Soldiers are not machines and Blistig has been denied explanations again and again and asked to give unreserved support to an army commander who has been declared renegade by her superior officers. Unlike Dujek Onearm, IMO, she doesnt have the massively successful track record to justify Blistigs support unconditionally. (Y’ghatan,KCNR ambush and initial plan for Letherii invasionall went sour, even if there was a lot of bad luck for her too) Blistig could have been within his rights to resign his commission given that Tavore and the Bonehunters are now renegades.
At some point the magnitude of the crimes committed have to come to the fore. The CG cannot just say,”Oops, I’ll be good now..all is forgiven right? I want to change.”
@37
I know she took precautions, her precautions were to send Baudin, a psychopath who sexual took advantage of Felisin. And please I don’t want to get into the whole thing but really the whole situation turned into a whole clusterfuck because Tavore thought it was a good idea to send teenage sister to a prision camp with only a person who’s a legit crazy murderer. The clusterfuck starts and ends with that–from there on out Felisin was trying to survive to the best of abilities (because, again, her sister left her out there without a bone) and was even trying to help her companions who in turn were unresponsive to her or outright desmissive (the guy who was suppose to ‘watch’ her). But please continue to blame the person with the least amount of power in the entire decision/plan of sending a teenage girl with a crazy murderer into a prision camp in which then she would have to breakout and somehow meet up with her sister in the middle of a large desert and do all this without her knowing her sister didn’t actually betray her. Because clearly it was a big clusterfuck because of Felisin *rolls eyes so hard I see into another dimension*.
@38
I like Tavore well enough I just don’t buy almost-religious faith the Captains/Fists/allies have in her, she hasn’t exactly been flying smooth.
@40 – I think my post of 39 clarifies my previous which you responded to. But I accept that likely doesn’t change your response. Here’s the other thing that colors my view of tCG. You call his actions murderous crimes. My sense that all he knew was he was a prisoner in a realm not his own, which means all the gods, ascendants and people and other races around him, except those he could directly turn were his enemies. He’s lashing out at everyone who he thinks is holding him down and causing him to suffer. As readers we know he’s wrong in who he targets, but are we sure as readers that he did? Genabackis, Lether, Seven Cities, these are all the enemy to him. Does that help? It does not change the impact of what he’s done, but I think to him these aren’t crimes, they are casualties of war. The reader knows otherwise. I’m unconvinced that Kaminsod does.
@41 – That might be an interesting question. Does Fiddler et al have blind faith in Tavore or not? I think there’s something more to it than that.
This is a great discussion and I love how passionate people are about this. The reason I’m holding off is I find it difficult to talk about many of these people/elements at an incomplete stage. Part of that is authorial intent (and obviously we are not bound as readers to an author’s intent in our responses) that is only partially clear at this point–for instance, can I really know how I’m supposed to feel about a character’s acts or motivations etc. without seeing them all the way through to the end? Maybe Tavore has good reason for not talking and that reason is revealed. Maybe Blistig ends up sacrificing himself to take out a dozen Forkrul Assail threatening Tavore. The other part is that as a rereader, my views toward these characters are colored not just by what they are doing, but also by what I know they are going to do. But clearly I can’t say that in any detail without spoilers for our first-timers.
Generally, I’d say there is a difference between compassion and forgiveness, just as there is one between having compassion for someone and condoning their acts. One also might ask the question about if punishment seems in accordance with those acts, just how much punishment is enough? Ten years? A millenia or two? It’s never enough? If, for instance, the Crippled God ends up freed, what does that mean? Is it that he’s “rewarded” for past behavior? Is that that he’s forgiven it? Is it that he’s been sentenced to time already served? There’s lot of complexity in merely attempting that act just in the abstract, who knows how simple or complex it will be after it succeds or fails (or ends somewhere in between)
I get Blistig as an officer is meant to bolster morale etc. But at what point is it also incumbent upon him to try to save his soldiers rather than just see they die decently? We all know “I was just following orders” is only a preferable act to a certain point–we’ve got enough history of atrocities done in that name to give us a reason to draw a line across just how “obedient” we want our soldiers/officers to be.
As for Tavore, I’m definitely holding off on discussion of her motivations/success/flaws until this all plays out. But I do get how she can have a slew of passionate adherents and detractors, each with good arguments to make.
I don’t think they have blind faith, obviously that all see something I don’t and perhaps I’m to cynical of a person to see it, but I feel like it’s an unearned faith. Fiddler, more than anyone I would think, is probably the person the grunts look up to most because he’s actually out there leading them. His in Lethrii doing the Drum, he’s crawling through dead fire city making sure everyone lives, he’s digging trenches vs the Short Tails, he was there at the beginning with the finger bones (I think it was him). Sort was the one who trusted Sinn and got those guys out the city, or rallied the troop vs the Short Tails. Quick Ben was the guy who stopped them from being destoryed at sea. Kalam made sure Tavore got back to the boat to get out. It just seems, her being the introvert she is, and not actually doing anything impressive or awe-inspiring it just seems odd to me all of the officers would be so faithful.
I mean they could be taken back by her longterm plans and her compassion for some even like the Cripple God, or even be inspired by defiance to the gods. But complete and utter faith? I just don’t know. She doesn’t really tell them anything, and only guy to figure out the end before the end was Fid and he’s just the type of guy to go along with her plan. Basically I’m a Blistig, I’d follow her to the ends of the earth if she trusted me to do so. (an aside, I know how this all plays out so I’m basically argue from how I felt reading the book the first time.)
I share the viewpoints of Eoin8472 and BDG when it comes to Blistig and Tavore. Tavore is not my sort of leader, although in past chapters other commenters have given a good account of her leadership style. And I also feel like Blistig gets the short end of the stick when it comes to no ever telling him what is going on and the resulting bitterness he develops. I can identify with Blistig a lot more than I can with Tavore.
However, I can also see the compassion for the CG despite the terrible things he has done or motivated others to do in the past. If I am a Malazan soldier, I could easily see the logic of helping the CG out so that he is not in such a terrible position that he has to sponsor the Whirlwind, the Pannion Seer, Rhulad Sengar, etc. etc. The world for the Malazan soldier is probably a better place if we have fewer genocidal lunatics sponsored by this terribly damaged god, and if we can help mitigate his pain then we a part of the solution instead of the problem.
I liken it to a really jerky kid I knew in elementary school. Although smart and talented, he could do and say some really bad stuff. Cursing out others of us on the ball field, fistfights, lying about others to get them in trouble, etc. Later I learned that his parents were divorcing, and this was a long time ago when divorce was not socially acceptable, not that divorce is ever good for kids. Anyways, once I knew about his parents’ situation, I could adjust for his attitudes and self-destructive behaviors. That doesn’t mean I suddenly wanted to get my lip split over who would be team captain for the recess games, but I could understand why he would suddenly go nuts, and act with a little more forebearance rather than just throwing down (and ending up in the principal’s office yet again).
So the Malazans, or maybe just Tavore, understand the reasons why the CG is such a raging rectum up to this point, and as a solution they are going to empathize with his predicament and try and alleviate some of the sources of his pain. It it the practical thing to do, and one aspect of the Malazans we all love is their practical and adaptive approach to life.
@@@@@ BDG,
My impression of Baudin was not that of a psychopatic murderer. I think he was quite restrained in the way assassins are (he was a Talon). Are you confusing Baudin with the guy who’s the head of the prisoners in the Otataral Mine, the one who made of Felisin his sex slave?
Regarding Blistig, as I’ve said already, is easy to see how he came to be like h eis in this moment. He was broken by the events at Aren, got no one to turn to (a la Gesler & Stormy) so no healing occured. Instead, the wound festered and turned him into what he is. Having said that I do not condone his actions and hope he can pull through it. The troopers have each other but the commanders seem set apart and harder to bond to each other due to rank, duty and responsabilities. Also some people are not very good at bonding, and Blsitg does seem the type.
Thinking back on DoD I remember a passsage where Keneb thinks/or says that Blistig is spending too much time fraternizing/drinking with common soldiers and that it is not a proper way for an officer to act. While I agree, maybe it was Blistig’s way of trying to forget the pain?
@46
Nope, one of the first thing Baudin does is saw a woman’s head off with his chain and throw into the gathered crowds and then later, despite clearly way older and supposably being her protector has rough sex with her despite her time in the mines with the man that basically makes Felisin his sex-slave and then disappears. Baudin was kind of a scumbag.
Great discussion here, as is so often the case. Bill: while I understand your reluctance to get into the motivations etc of Tavore, I myself have no such compunctions. That said, I don’t think any of the following spoils anything regarding her. Nothing I will say about her should be anything new (I hope!). That said, it may be that first time readers, caught up as they might be in trying to figure out Tavore, should not read my following commentary. If you think it needs whiting out, go right ahead…
Let’s talk about compassion, forgiveness, rational thought and judgement. Oh I know, what dull subjects. I’ll do what I can to spice it up. Consider the following scenario: you’re driving along, when another car races up on your right and then cuts in front of you, only to make a sudden left hand turn on the yellow, blocking your progress, and now you’re stuck at the light – or not. Say, in a sudden surge of rage, you hit the gas and take off after that driver. You chase him down the street, right on his bumper. And let’s say you’ve just had enough, you’re fed up. Your wife’s left you. Or you’re in debt to the eyeballs. Or your Mother is dying and your father doesn’t even recognize you anymore. The world feels so fucking unfair, and now this asshole goes and cuts you off – well, when you put your fist into his face, you’re punching the whole damned world.
He slams to a halt and jumps out. You do the same.
But before you get to him, you see him open the back door and pull out an unconscious child, and you realise you’re both parked outside the Emergency entrance at the hospital.
There you stand with your hands curled into fists, as he rushes the limp child into the hospital.
What goes on in your mind at that moment? Well, plenty of possibilities. You might think Well, now I get it. Good luck, mate. I hope she’s all right. Or you might think: It’s still no fucking excuse for driving like that!
What you know affects how you judge. It may not alter your judgement, but surely it tempers it. When you don’t know shit, that judgement can be seriously fucked up.
Now, let’s say the guy doesn’t even get a chance to open that back door, before you’re on him. Your fists hammer home. You beat the crap out of him. Police arrive and drag you off, hand-cuff you. Doctors and nurses rush out to the downed man, but he says, through split lips: “Not me! My daughter’s in the car! I can’t wake her up!”
And now all faces turn to you. And you see something cold in their eyes – pretty much what you might have seen had you looked at yourself in the rearview mirror while you chased down that driver.
Before the law, your shitty life might come into the discussion when it comes to punishment (not guilt or innocence, because that is beyond question, witnessed as it was). But that hapless driver didn’t run off with your wife. He didn’t make your mother ill, or take your father’s memories. He didn’t put you in debt. So, what’s been going on in your life is a mitigating factor when it comes to deciding how you’re going to be punished, but that’s as far as it goes.
We build rational constructs from the flimsiest of evidence. In lieu of knowing, we rush to judgement, and we bring our own world, our own life, into the equation. And from all this, emotions burgeon. It’s actually satisfying to judge someone. There’s that rush of superiority, that savage glee that’s both delicious and dirty. And who knows? Given the chance, we might put a fist into a face or two. Or, if we’re not inclined to violence, we delight in seeing justice done, either in law or in something more ephemeral, like karma.
But in that absence of knowledge, judgement has a way of escalating, climbing exponentially in the mind on a rising tide of emotions. And should we be suddenly, irrevocably, proved completely wrong, then we might end up feeling something of a fool, or an idiot. Or, we might just get belligerent and reject the evidence in order to keep riding those emotions.
Drama (film, tv, books, stage) plays out those scenarios, and good drama plays them out with subtlety. And, as witnesses to this little play, these scenes of comeuppance, we become, in our own way, arbiters of justice all over again, this time once removed – where our emotions are plucked and strummed by what information we are given as audience. And most of drama depends, in fact, upon that tension between knowing and not knowing, or half-knowing (that scene where a wife thinks her husband is cheating on her only to discover that he’s taken a second job to pay for a new house, or a vacation, or whatever).
All right, now what does all this have to do with The Malazan Book of the Fallen and more specifically, with The Crippled God and the discussion that’s followed Chapter Fourteen?
I’ll try this by working my way outward from the novel. All these characters want to know Tavore’s mind. They wants reasons, explanations. They want from her that rational construct they deem necessary in order to make a judgement. They’re not getting it.
This leaves them to their own devices, or more precisely, to their internal landscape, which some fill with hope, others fear and suspicion. While yet others build a scaffold and start knotting the rope for the noose, and every strut and beam, every post and step, is perfect in its rational explication. There in that inner landscape, it stands strong, sturdy and undeniable in its purpose. The builder stands there, in his own mind, as judge and executioner, and my, that’s a powerful pair of roles to assume, isn’t it?
There is no point in arguing the distinction between compassion and forgiveness when, despite many chiming in to explain the difference between the two, the initial poster (on that subject) seems either unwilling or incapable of understanding it. Forgive me if that sounds harsh, but do consider my position here: on the basis of that conflation of two very distinct terms, I am then accused of some kind of sleight of hand, some kind of bullying hard-sell with respect to the Crippled God. Well, without an understanding of the difference between compassion and forgiveness, someone might well conclude that. And there stands the scaffold in that inner landscape, but alas, it has no connection with reality: it’s a construct founded on false premises, and not one I will meekly be dragged to, the rope slipped over my head and the knot tightened at my neck. Sorry, not going to happen.
There is a vast difference between compassion and forgiveness (see my response to the accusation). This entire series leaves the question of forgiveness open, to each character, and to each reader. Choose as you like. But this series heads straight and unequivocally to the notion of compassion: what’s needed for it to come into being? How much information is enough? At what point does a person experience that light going on in their heads? At what point does hasty judgement based on incomplete knowledge, all come crashing down?
It’s a personal thing. It varies among the characters. Presumably and demonstrably, it does the same among readers.
I’m not a great believer in the efficacy of rationality. Reasons and excuses and explanations can each, in turn, be twisted to justify virtually anything, from a husband beating up his wife over a broken dinner plate to a nation conducting highly organized genocide. In the above example, the offended driver can build up an entire framework leading up to a violent confrontation with the one who so offended him, but regardless of a swung fist or just a verbal assault, is either one truly justified? Is either one commensurate with the discourtesy that initiated it?
Tavore leaves it to her people, and by that I mean, she leaves it to her people. Does that frustrate them? Surely it does. Does that make them frantic in their ratonalisations? Their concoctions of possible reasons and explanations? Indeed. Does that drive them inevitably into their internal landscape, there to construct what they will? Yes.
And yes, that was my point.
What’s the relationship between compassion and forgiveness? To answer that, first one needs to comprehend the difference between the two. And then, the only possible answer I can offer up, via this ten volume series, is this: it’s personal.
Five or so thousand years of lawmakers, philosophers and rulers have mulled on this matter, all within the context of justice and on behalf of a state or nation, or empire. But for many more thousands of years than any lawmaker, we humans have struggled with the same question, every day, every night. What’s fair? What’s just? What’s right? What do we know? What don’t we know? And what difference does knowing or not knowing make?
Here’s a question for you: among all the characters in the Book of the Fallen, for whom does the question of rationality, reason, justification and judgement, one and all fall to the wayside, in the name of something else? And what might that ‘something else’ be? The answer to both questions are both obvious and yet not so obvious. Hell, we may not even agree, but I do have a character in mind (and did, during the writing), and I do/did have a ‘something else’ in mind as well. For a hint on the latter, it’s not quite as simple as ‘compassion,’ though compassion is a huge part of it.
With respect to the Crippled God … well, that slow turn-over was put into work from the very beginning of the series. It was the central arc to what the whole series was about. There is nothing sleight of hand about it. That said, it’s entirely natural for a character/reader to choose to not let go of that god’s crimes, and to then resist the turn-over, even as the full measure of his suffering increasingly comes to light. Judgements, once made, are slow to be relinquished. They’re too rewarding, on both rational and visceral levels. That’s fine. I get it. In fact, in many ways, for the conflicts inherent in this series, I depend upon it (as drama will do).
That’s why Tavore gives you nothing. Gives them nothing. Not Blistig, not Kindly, not Fiddler, not Banaschar, not anyone. You might even say I did her a terrible disservice. I piled on both character and reader expectations until she had a damned mountain on her shoulders; but then I might counter, Tavore was also my stand-in, no?
Is there a more succinct way of putting this? Maybe. How about this:
She gives you nothing, in order to give you everything.
So, back to the question: which character gets it? Has always gotten it? A hint: the timing is prescient.
cheers
SE
It strikes me here as well that, in view of what SE has written above, we can use the Jaghut and the T’lan Imass. Do we all remember those first firm views we held about the Jaghut Tyrant? About how the T’lan Imass had been wronged? How long did it take us all to start wondering about how just that first impression was? How long did we take to come to forgiveness and compassion concerning both sides of that conflict, and who may have been at fault?
We can then apply that to the Crippled God. Our first impression of him has always been of a horrific tyrant, and that was really hammered home by his actions. But we’ve gradually come to see, over books and books, that he has been driven to this, and so I think we have to find a measure of compassion for the situation he was in. Our first impressions came about as a result of false or lacking information. Now we’re given more (although not all!) of the information, and surely we then have to adjust our perspective, rather than clinging blindly to something that has been overturned. That is like clinging to the bad first impression you have of someone you meet, even if given much evidence to prove them otherwise.
I think Tavore is being wise here with her commanders – even Blistig. If you look over all of the commanders, they sort of run the spectrum of views about Tavore herself – from outright distrust to absolute faith and everything in between. By surrounding herself with that, I think she allows the commanders to talk about the situation and provide each other with some perspective, and they also become the bridge between her and the regular troops. I mean, the troops might not blindly follow Tavore – but they’d follow Fiddler into hell and back. And Fiddler believes in Tavore, so the troops will therefore follow Tavore. By very deliberate action, she has brought together a team of Fists who are able to forge these Bonehunters into what she needs.
@48 Steven
Some very good points about the distinction between forgiveness and compassion. I guess as the initial poster you described, I must respond to the point that I cannot tell the difference between compassion and forgiveness. As far as I am aware (though I’m sure outside opinions can always vary) I can tell the difference. The problem I’m having is the jarring of shall we say, full compassion without any discussion of the harm/crimes that leads up to that. (at least in this book)
To quote your example, the compassion seems to be based all on the mitigating factors, with no equivalent discussion of the crime. Especially for certain characters who have witnessed the crime of the said character. And the jarring is happening for me, when certain other characters are not shown compassion, by the readers I guess. Essentially why are the other soldiers giving Blistig the short end of the stick. I guess I’m a Blistig too?
@49 Amanda
I understand your point somewhat. But in the case of the CG, our first impressions are of an entity that is committing crimes, with mitiaging factors as Steven mentioned. Its the two wrongs make a right/vengence argument we have had before. The CG has decided to turn over a new leaf, thats great. But, without a trial per say, I’m really missing a sentence or two where someone says, “We will help you CG, but you really did do dickish things. You were forced into lashing out, but your lashing out hurt victims” Maybe I’m looking for the carryover of the Redeemer storyline from TTH for me. I guess compassion for the CG doesn’t equal forgivenss or absolution or redemption for him.
@eoin
I think you still misunderstand slightly the etymological differences here. To steal two definitions from Wikipedia
Compassion is the emotion that one feels in response to the suffering of others that motivates a desire to help.
In the car crash analogy above, it is that moment when you look at the child in the back seat and mentally go “Oh god what can I do”. You may then do something. You may not. But that decision is entirely up to you, and independant of their actions.
Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.
Forgiveness is what you do next. If you decide to help the person take the child into the hospital, you are forgiving them their hazardous driving. If you decide to hit him again, you aren’t.
Forgiveness is different from condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the offender as responsible for the action), pardoning (granted by a representative of society, such as a judge), forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness), and reconciliation (restoration of a relationship)
Condoning : The crazy driving was ok in this circumstance as the girl was sick.
Excusing : He was out of his mind in panic, so not responsible
Pardoning : The police officer chasing the pair of you decides not to prosecute the affray.
Forgetting : You faint in shock, and when you come to, everything is over and the guy has gone.
Reconciliation : You meet up with the guy later to offer him a beer in payback.
It is also different from Absolution, which has a spiritual dimension – a third party is forgiving you your sins in exchange for certain behaviours or punishments.
Redemption is similar to absolution, but the cost is greater in that it requires a sacrifice. The nature of the sacrifice varies dramatically, but there is an expectation of it being a permanent change of status (with alive to dead being one of the most significant). However the ideal of Redemption is that it is open to anyone at any time, all they need to do is pay the price.
Our argument with you is you are protesting the compassion shown to the CG, due to what you see as a lack of justification. Yet all compassion requires is the ability to see suffering. It doesn’t ask for justification, nor for restitution, or trials or anything at all. It simply needs the observer to see the situation, and decide for themselves that the recipient is suffering, and share their pain.
Simpler example – a hungry tiger caught in a trap. If you free him, he will attack and probably badly injure you. If you do not, he will eventually die a painful death. Yet you still can feel compassion for the creature. The usual solution in our world would be a bullet between the eyes as a clean death. Yet that action is only one of a whole range of actions you could take. What you do is up to you, and separate to the compassion you feel. THAT is the judgement, not the initial sympathy.
Lastly, bear in mind there is still a bunch of the book to go. The Crippled God could be freed. Or killed. Or consumed for power. Or brought before the judgement of the gods. Or everything could be doomed to start anew.
Each would be a judgement of sorts on his actions, which would you prefer?
@51
Mayhem.
No, you misunderstand me. I am NOT protesting the eventual compassion shown to the CG. Not at all. What I am protesting is the somewhat immediate compassion shown to the CG by many viewpoint characters without the prior argument/trial that it is the right thing to do. And contrasting that with those self same characters attitudes to Blistig. Thats the heart of my trouble.
I need to see characters like Gruntle/Quick Ben/Hedge struggle with the decision before giving the CG their blessing. I (personally)need to see the debate. Especially considering many of those characters were against/hurt by the CG’s actions in the earlier books.
I think that Eoin has put the finger on my failure to understand the motivation of the Malazans well: “What I am protesting is the somewhat immediate compassion shown to the CG by many viewpoint characters without the prior argument/trial that it is the right thing to do.”
My problem is that I didn’t see / read / identify WHEN the Malazans or even Tavore by herself learned or understood the following series of things.
1. That the source of all this evil (Whirlwind, Pannion Seer, Rhulad, etc.) was the Crippled God.
2. That the other gods had abused the Crippled God.
3. That other races and ascendants were going to use the Crippled God to augment their power / fulfill their own evil ambitions.
4. That there was a solution to problems 2. and 3. above that included defeating the Letheri under Rhulad, marching across several deserts, allying with several unknown nations, and several other spoilery things.
Because I missed these elements that went into Tavore’s motivation and rational thought process, I was pretty mystified why the Malazan Bonehunter Army put itself through all the suffering that they do.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I STRONGLY enjoyed reading and now re-reading all ten books, and the overall story arc in retrospect is fantastic (in both senses of the word), but Eoin does have a point about character motivations, and this point is even more to the front for me on the re-read.
Also, thank you SE for the explication on motivations. It is like having C.S. Lewis write letters to me about his books, or Gene Wolfe telephoning me to explain why Latro is in the Mist. Except with these other commenters, I also have other readers writing Lewis and participating in a party line call with Wolfe. This re-read that Tor hosts and your participation is just amazing, like a college literature course taught by an exciting lecturer that covers a book that is rather more interesting than Madame Bovary.
So many interesting issues being brought up in these comments: Bonehunter trust or lack thereof in Tavore; Bonehunter trust or lack thereof in Blistig; Compassion or lack thereof for the Crippled God; Reader-response to Bonehunter motivations; Reader-response to Blistig; Reader-response to Tavore – and, I’ll giddily admit, we’ve also been blessed with the Words From On High from Steven himself. This re-read project has been one of my most cherished things on the entire web and it has contributed immensely to my understanding of what I consider the finest fantasy literature written since the printing press.
I have tried half a dozen different attempts at this response ranging from slightly pithy (ahem) to a full on chronology of The Crippled God
text regarding various presented issues as I think some commenters might be confusing re-reader reactions, their own knowledge of how things play out (& their feelings about such things), and what is actually in the text up to this point in Chapter 14. I also considered completely bypassing issues of reader confusion and text speculations to just focus on the boon of Steven’s oh-so-stimulating question(s).
Then I realized that I could address most of this at once by quoting a single passage.
Re-readers, some of you might not feel like this is enough of an explanation, and Steven, this is my response to at least the first half of your question. I might not be thinking of the same character you are/were, but here is it nonetheless. I am just going to let Fiddler speak:
@@@@@ 48 SE
I’m still not completely satisfied when it comes to Tavore. I’ve never denined the importance of her goal but still, perhaps it’s my dislike for pinpoint leadership, with all the worrys and burdens are placed upon a single set of shoulders or my annoyance at the lack of transparency between the grunts and the top dog in which the many are told to put their lives in the hands of a single person, a person who might be a hell of a person like Tavore there still one person who is liable to make a mistake.
For me the that lack of transparency shows a lack of trust on Tavore’s part, a lack of trust in her people to choose to do the right thing. Blistig has shown to be able to look at a situation and choose to do the right thing and I doubt the other officers are any different so with this lack of transparency, for me at least, if I was a Fist or whatever, would be very worrying and just a tad disrespectful to my humanhood. If you’re asking me to lay down my life for a cause I think I would at least be allowed to know what that cause is. Onto of that, while it’s very heroic and brave for Tavore to carry the burden on her lonesome I don’t think it’s particularly healthy or needed really, I’d bet many in the BHs would be willing to share it. She doesn’t need to give me everything, I would just want to know, as a soldier in the BH, what I’m going to die for. That would be enough I think.
As a reader though, it sure is entertaining as hell to read through.
Not to sidestep SE’s response, and not to deny any character’s agency, and certainly avoiding spoilers (though re-readers might get it a little better), but I think there’s at least one more factor that is being ignored here: the supernatural. Why do the Snake follow Rutt? Why do the Shake follow Twilight? Well, it’s not that they’re being compelled to, but they do likely feel that something is happening here. And it’s more than a mere hunch. As there’s an energy on the road to Ascendency, there must be some on the road to Convergence too.
In addition, even Tavore’s so-called “failures” may actually suit the Bonehunters in particular to the task she sets upon them. They were brutalized at Y’Ghatan, they were rejected (forcefully) by their Empire, and they certainly went through the wringer of the Nah’ruk. As StudiousLock quotes, they might as well consider themselves the children of the Crippled God, they fit as much as say Harllo Jr.’s adopted parents. And not coincidentally, the other force on their side (though they don’t seem to know it) is Onearm’s Host: also brutalized via Pannion, also rejected by their Empire, also put through the wringer of the plague.
Thanks to Wilbur and Studious Lock’s responses @53 and 54. They sum up my thoughts as well.
On the one hand it’s regarding this re-read on Tor and the possibility to discuss it with SE and other like-minded people. I feel amazed, humbled and grateful for it.
On the second hand it’s regarding the understanding of Kaminsod by the BH @53 and compassion @54.
And to try and answer Steven’s question regarding which character gets it: My first answer would have been Anomander Rake. After thinking for a bit and reading the comment @54 I can see Fidler there as well.
@57
I though the answer was obviously Fid, as I stated before, he’s pretty much the only guy who gets what Tavore is trying to do before they get to the end and agree with her. Many times Fid get’s dialogue or internal monologue like the quote above point out the need for compassion for compassion’s sake. That and he’s there from the beginning to the end. That said I don’t think Rake is a bad pick either, nor would I be surprised by someone like Dancer or Trull.
@56
It’s funny, I often don’t take the supernatural into account when thinking about Malazan but that definitly and interesting thought. The BHs went through those things to become the perfect army for the CG, and the leaders of those groups become a focal point of whatever their trying to achieve and thus they follow. It’s still not that convincing as why Tavore is followed, as someone like say Fiddler, or Sort would be a better beacon of the kind of suffering the CG has gone through.
Ultimately I think I’ll have to satifisy myself by saying the officers follow her because on some level they understand the depth or her mission and hence her compassion and they deeply respect that–and from there people follow-in-line because that’s how the military is. I still don’t think Blistig is wrong for asking why or where there going (his other assholeish behaviour on the other hand is pretty unacceptable) or to question a inherently insular leader who has marched them from bad place to bad place only to ask them to march across an uncrossable desert with not so much as to a hint as of why.
I’d say it is Shadowthrone, who then proceeds to explain it to the other candidates (Cotillion, Tavore, Anomander, Hood, etc.). He doesn’t seem to be motivated by ambition, justice, revenge or anything as predictable, which is exactly why everyone else is mystified by his actions. In fact, he is trying to fix the world, make it a better place for everyone ( except maybe those nasty elder gods who are basically parasites ).
Well I’m not sure they necessarily have to be following Tavore, start to finish. People follow her initially because they are professional soldiers and she’s the Adjunct and she has actual real life Bridgeburners on her side. They follow her from Malaz City to Lether because they are on boats — the vast majority of soldiers don’t even set foot on land, and are in fact barricaded from Rel/Dom by the Perish (and if I’m not mistaken, even as he evokes the air of imperial loyalty, Admiral Nok). And then they follow her to Letheras because Tavore stood by them (and in principle by the Wickans), and because they’re still professional soldiers seeking a fight after the one-two punch of HoC/TBH, and to take out Rhulad in particular. As of DoD, they may follow her because that’s what they’ve been doing all along, or because she gives them purpose (whatever it may be), or just the band-of-brothers effect. There’s myriad reasons. And it may just be that some soldiers do abandon her to settle in Letheras (even though it is a new strange continent, not particularly hospitable towards Malazans). Just not amongst the marines/heavies. Anyway now I’m just rambling with maybes.
Malazan retired soldiers in Lether. I would totally read a book based on that, what with the whole new warrens and rediscovery of magic (and King Tehol’s rule :) ).
Something like the BB’s in Darujhistan but without the pain of remebering so many fallen comrades.
Cassanne- Ohhh, I really like your Shadowthrone take & reasoning as a response to SE’s question(s).
Doubt that it’s whom he had in mind, but when SE’s question is worded this way:
I think, well, if someone knew that freeing the CG meant saving the human race, then all those other considerations would probably fall to the wayside for that person. I know they would if it were me, because, saving the human race.
So isn’t it Tavore who somehow knows that it’s necessary to free the CG to save the human race? Or maybe I’m mis-remembering.
Meanwhile @Amanda…ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahhaha! There was a time way back, when Amanda posted something like, “Well obviously the Crippled God is the ultimate big bad guy in this series…” and I was going all apoplectic trying to keep my mouth shut and sit on my hands. Remember that, Amanda????
I have my doubts that SE meant Shadowthrone. Of that pair it’s more likely to be Cotillion. But I feel like it’s someone else.
Probably Gumble.
I think it’s pretty obviously Neffarias Bredd
Steven: Thanks as always for chiming in so eloquently and thoroughly, a true gift to your readers. And for doing so without spoilers :)
It’s funny, but in my original post I actually started to go into the idea of judgment, but then realized I had to head out in a few moments and that I wasn’t going to be able to do justice to such a complex topic. And then you went and did. And then gave us all a great game to play: “Guess the Character Who Gets It”. And I think it’s a testament to both the richness of these characters and the unity of this theme that we as readers can offer up several candidates.
Is it for instance, Shadowthrone, with his “Acceptable levels of misery and suffering… Acceptable? Who the fuck says any level is acceptable?”
Is it Itkovian, with his direct statements to the idea of compassion?
“We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.”
Is it this character?
“I speak of compassion. There are gifts imagined in such efforts.”
This one? Compassion existed, like a blossom in a crack of stone, a fulsome truth, a breathtaking miracle . . . If I harden myself to compassion, then what am I trying to save?
This? “Compassion was engagement, a mindfulness beyond that of mere witness”
Is it the one who sacrifices himself/herself for others? The other one who does so? The other one? The other?
Is it the one who saves a child not his own? A soldier not his own? Is it one who saves a dog?
The list goes on—both those who express this idea through words/deeds/thoughts and those who do not (and by not also give us reason to explore the topic)
How often have we seen characters struggle with this—this bundled chaotic swirl of linked but not the same concepts of compassion, forgiveness, absolution, vengeance, atonement, empathy, judgment?
This path to redemption. Know that I cannot forgive you. Not yet.’
‘Nor I you.’
He nodded. ‘We both have learning ahead of us.’
We Jaghut are not… not known for compassion among our blood-tied, our
kin—’
Paran grimaced. ‘And we humans are? You’re not the only one who finds such things a struggle. There’s much you have to repair, starting with what is within yourself, with what you’ve done.
How many times have characters looked into an other’s eyes? Or not? Turned away? Or not?
And is not turning away enough? Or is it just the first step? After all, “Compassion is never enough” So who in this book doesn’t just talk about compassion, but acts on it? Puts himself or herself out there? Doesn’t just react to injustice/tragedy with empathy but takes an active role in trying to prevent either happening again?
I’m sticking to my personal guns on getting into the specifics on this J but I love this discussion and can’t wait until we see this all unfold and step back into it with a bit more “information”
My guts say Steven meant Cotillion/Dancer.
Hm, what if… I’m still assuming it’s Shadowthrone who got it first, and what if Cotillion wasn’t convinced yet, what if he still wanted justice/judgment first. So ST said: ok, fine you can do that, I even have a plan. You go posess this girl, I create some nice cover-up, you go do this thing. All with the aim to shock Cotillion into seeing reason, getting his priorities (ie empathy, humanity) straight? Also means ST picked out Paran that early and might be him who starts pushing him into the path of more and more powerful people. Maybe even all the Paran siblings were his pawns in a way, from very early on? Else, what is it about that family?
Sure, most of the time we see Dancer/Cotillion in the series he comes across as compassionate. But we do not know how he was before this, before ascending, before the Empire. So how can someone say for sure that Dancer/Cottilion got it. That he ALWAYS got it (the compassion thingy)?
The Mayhbe
Well if I go with my guts, it’s Quick Ben. Funny how nobody else has mentioned him though. So my guts are probably wrong.
I can’t believe I got this far into the reread simply lurking. But as we’re getting so close to the end, and this chapter and the ensuing discussion are such a beautiful microcosm of this mad thing that’s been getting me through Poliel’s current visitation upon our realm, I’m compelled to throw my own thoughts into the ring.
Firstly, the obligatory thanks to Steven, Bill and Amanda for being the essential tentpoles on which this, the best thing on the internet, hangs.
Secondly, there must be some other COVID rereaders out there – how much of a good investment were these tomes?? I knew lugging kilos and kilos of nerd words halfway around the world with me would pay off!
I agree that Fiddler is the most likely candidate, but there are three others that stand out to me, if only because of the fact that none of you other faceless legends have brought them up.
In a certain sense, Mappo’s compassion for Icarium is as boundless as anyone who’s come before. This being (Iccy), whilst one of our favourites, capable of great feats and true friendship, has committed atrocities that, over time when stacked and considered together, probably make Pannion look like a child’s tantrum (which, IIRC, is relatively apt). Mappo’s need to refind him becomes a tad…selfish almost, to my mind, in this book, in this chapter even. But unthinkingly compassionate towards someone who reasonable people making judgments could easily call a monster? Bears mentioning.
Tehol Beddict’s schemes to free the conquered Indebted of the Lether Empire, always spoke to me of a mind that is almost plagued or haunted by compassion. Otherwise would he not just be the Jeff Bezos of Lether? Mael’s choice to stand by his side and his explanations as to why in DoD/TCG would mark him also, to my mind, as a candidate.
But surely the answer is Kruppe? The voice of the series, the ‘cipher’ of the book that is in and of itself a cipher? The jovial rotund repository of ill-gotten sweetmeats, bon mots and frustration? First to defend and befriend the Mhybe, threading the Kobayashi Marue of Scorch and Leff’s debtor’s list by simultaneously finding and saving all upon it, facing down not just Caladan Brood but all that is happening in this dark time. Facing it not with the dour, flattened mouth of Tavore, the heroic ego of Krughava or the plotting and jostling for position of Ammanas or Mallick Rel, but with a beatific smile and ready assistance. He might not be ‘on screen’ at this point in the story, but he is, I suspect, the screen itself.
It’s a new decade, and I doubt many (or any) will see this, but there it is. There will be time for more gushing in 10 or so chapters time, but for now, to all of you who have come this far, and especially to our stalwart leaders and the genius who inspires us all, thank you, from the bottom of my heart.
@73 I see you
@Sea monue : I am reading the MALAZAN series for the first time during Covid. In 2020, the compassion vs redemption is very much on my mind. I feel like I don’t understand a lot of people and to be compassionate is not easy. We need to let go of some expectations of what they should say or do and be more open to different interpretations. Easier said than done.
My vote is for whiskeyjack. He is compassionate and vows to defend Silver Fox when people around him say she could be dangerous.